IN THE DECADE FOLLOWING 2008, IN THE UNITED STATES THE SHARE OF PEOPLE GRADUATING WITH BACHELOR'S DEGREES DROPPED BY A THIRD SO WHAT IS AT PLAY AND WHY DOES IT MATTER?

ANDREW IS PROFESSOR OF AMERICAN CITIES AND THE REZIP YENLT OF A NATIONAL HUMANITY MEDAL FROM PRESIDENT OBAMA.

HE TALKS TO MICHELLE MARTIN ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF REVERSING THIS DECLINE IN LEARNING THE HUMANITIES.

>> THANKS, CHRISTIANE.

PROFESSOR, THANKS FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> MY PLEASURE.

>> THE IMMEDIATE EMPHASIS FOR OUR CONVERSATION IS A RECENT NEW YORKER ARTICLE BY NATHAN TITLED THE END OF THE ENGLISH MAJOR.

HE STARTS WITH A STUDY OF ENGLISH BUT EXPANDS TO THE HUMANITIES IN GENERAL SAYING THAT THE STUDY OF ENGLISH AND HISTORY HAS FALLEN DRAMATICALLY AND SAYS THAT'S A PROBLEM.

WHAT'S YOUR TOP LINE REACTION TO THAT?

>> I THINK IT'S FAIR TO SAY THE ARTICLE IS A LITTLE TOO BLEAK THAT IS THE NUMBERS ARE SOBERING BUT IF YOU ONLY LOOK AT ENGLISH MAJORS, YOU MAY GET A DIFFERENT IMPRESSION OF STUDENTS MINORING ENGLISH AND STUDENTS TAKING COURSES IN ENGLISH BUT NOT NECESSARILY MAJORING, SO THERE IS ALSO A SIGNIFICANT OVERSIGHT IN THE ARTICLE HE DOESN'T REALLY SPEAK ABOUT THE VERY LARGE SECTOR OF HIGHER EDUCATION, WHICH IS THE COMMUNITY COLLEGE WHICH IS SOMETHING LIKE 40% OF UNDER GRADUATES ATTEND WHERE HUMANITIES AND LIBERAL ARTS ARE THRIVING.

THE FIRST THING I SAY IS TAKE THIS PICTURE WITH A GRAIN OF SALT BUT LOOK, HAVING SAID WHAT I SAID, IT'S CERTAINLY TRUE THAT HUMANITY IS IN DECLINE AND STUDENT INTEREST IN HUMANITY IS FALLING RATHER THAN RISING.

ONE THINKS WHY MIGHT THAT BE?

I THINK THERE IS NO ONE SINGLE ANSWER.

ONE ANSWER I IMPOSE IS WE INSTINCTIVELY KNOW, READING, READING SOMETHING LONGER THAN A TWEET DOES NOT OCCUPY THE CENTRAL PLACE IN OUR CULTURE THAT IT ONCE DID.

IN MY TEACHING I'VE BEEN MOVING TOWARD ASKING STUDENTS TO READ SHORTER WORKS, SPEECHES, POEMS AND THE LIKE AND ANOTHER FACTOR SCIENCE OR STEM FIELDS, ENGINEERING OR MATHEMATICS, SCIENCE IS EXCITING.

SCIENCE IS THE FUTURE.

TECHNOLOGY IS THE BYPRODUCT OF SCIENCE PROMISES WILL MAKE HUMAN BEINGS IMPORT L. IT'S REASONABLE TO EXPECT YOUNG PEOPLE TO BE MORE INTERESTED IN THE FUTURE THAN THE PAST WHICH IS THE SUBJECT OF THE HUMANITY.

NOW, ANOTHER REASON AND THIS IS A DIFFERENT KIND OF RUN IS THE PLACE OF HUMANITY IN THE CULTURE.

WHEN I WAS AN UNDER GRADUATE IF SOMEONE IN THE DINING HALL HAD SAID MY AMBITION IS TO BECOME AN INVESTMENT BANKER, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN A CONVERSATION STOPPER.

TODAY IT'S THE NORM.

A BROADER DEMOCRATIC STUDENTS, MANY STUDENTS THAT ARE FIRST GENERATION STUDENTS COME FROM FAMILIES WHERE DEBT IS A SERIOUS CHALLENGE.

IT'S PERFECTLY REASONABLE THAT STUDENTS ARE FOCUSED ON STUDYING, SOMETHING THEY THINK WILL LEAD TO A JOB AND A CAREER.

>> IT'S ALSO THE FACT THAT THE COST OF A COLLEGE EDUCATION HAS ESCALATED FAR BEYOND THE RATE OF INFLATION SO IT'S NOT AN IDOL CONCERN SO THERE IS THAT.

OKAY.

SO YOU'VE IDENTIFIED THAT THERE ARE CERTAIN TRENDING MOVING AWAY FROM PEOPLE AS THEIR MAIN FOCUS WHILE IN COLLEGE.

IS THIS A PROBLEM?

>> I'M COMMITTED TO THE PROPOSITION THAT YES, IT IS A PROBLEM.

IT'S A PROBLEM FOR YOUNG PEOPLE INDIVIDUALLY AND IT'S A PROBLEM FOR SOCIETY AND ITS FUTURE.

YOUNG PEOPLE HAVE AN APPETITE, INDEED AN URGENT NEED I THINK FOR WHAT THE HUMANITIES HAVE TO OFFER.

YOUNG PEOPLE GRAPPLE WITH QUESTIONS EVERY DAY TO WHICH THERE IS NO RIGHT ANSWER.

THEY GRAPPLE WITH QUESTIONS IN THEIR OWN LIVES THAT ARE THE SUBJECT OF LITERATURE, FOR EXAMPLE, WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN LOVE AND DESIRE?

.

A CENTRAL THEME IN MANY GREAT NOVELS OF EUROPE ANDA CENTRAL THEME IN MANY GREAT NOVELS OF EUROPE AND OUR OWN COUNTRY.

WHAT IS MY RESPONSIBILITY TO MYSELF AS OPPOSED TO MY RESPONSIBILITY TO OTHERS AND HOW DO I FIND THE RIGHT BALANCE?

IS THE SHAPE OF A MEANINGFUL LIFE?

WHAT KIND OF LIFE DO I WANT TO LIVE?

MY SENSE IS THAT STUDENTS HAVE THOSE QUESTIONS ON THEIR MINDS AT LEAST AS MUCH AS EVER BEFORE, MAYBE EVEN MORE SO GIVEN ALL THE STRESSES THAT THEY'RE UNDER AND IN FACT, THERE IS EVIDENCE THAT THERE ARE SOMEWAYS IN WHICH COLLEGES MEETING THAT NEED FOR EXAMPLE, YALE ONE OF THE MOST POPULAR COURSES IS THE COURSE ON HAPPINESS.

AT HARVARD FOR MANY YEARS, THERE IS A POPULAR COURSE ON THE THEME OF JUSTICE.

THESE ARE THE F FUNDAMENTAL CORE THEMES AND THIS STAMPEDE FROM ENGLISH DEPARTMENTS IF THAT'S THE RIGHT WORD IS ENGLISH DEPARTMENTS HAVE NOT BEEN STEPPING UP AND MEETING THIS NEED AS WELL AS THEY COULD HAVE DONE.

THEY SEEM TO EXPECT THAT STUDENTS WILL BE INTERESTED IN LITERARILY HISTORY OR THE THEORY OF HOW TO READ AND IN SOMEWAYS ENGLISH DEPARTMENTS HAVE BEEN IN A WEIRDLY HOSTILE RELATIONSHIP TO LITERATURE WHERE THESE THEMES ARE TO BE FOUND AND EXPLORED.

SO WHAT I'M TRYING TO SAY IS I THINK THE APPETITE FOR THE HUMANITIES IS STILL THERE.

THE NEED FOR THE HUMANITY, THE VALUE OF CONFRONTING THESE QUESTIONS WITH THE HELP OF RICH TEXT OF GOOD TEACHER AND YOUR CLASSMATES GRAPPLING WITH THE SAME QUESTION, THAT NEED IS UNABATED AND I DON'T THINK IT EVER WILL ABATE.

THE QUESTION IS WHETHER OUR COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES CAN MEET THAT NEED AND THERE ARE WAYS FOR THEM TO DO SO.

>> THERE HAS BEEN A MOVEMENT THAT, YOU KNOW, DEAD WHITE GUYS HAVE NOTHING TO TEACH US AND I JUST WONDER IF THAT POINT OF VIEW, THE DEAD WHITE GUYS AS IT WERE HAVE TOO BIG OF A FOOTPRINT IN THE LITERATURE AND THERE IS SOMETHING ABOUT THAT THAT'S TAKEN HOLD IN A WAY THE PROFESSION IS SORT OF EATING ITSELF.

DOES THAT -- COULD THAT BE TRUE?

>> ENGLISH DEPARTMENTS SPENT A LOT OF UNPRODUCTIVE TIME ARGUING WHICH BOOKS BY WHICH AUTHORIZATION TEACH.

THERE ARE POWERFUL TEXTS BY DEAD WHITE GUYS AND LIVING WRITERS OF COLOR AND WOMEN AND NONE WESTERN AUTHORS, OLD BOOKS AND NEW BOOKS AND MEDIUM AGE BOOKS.

THERE ARE TOO MANY GOOD BOOKS RATHER THAN THE OPPOSITE.

SO YES, THIS SENSE THAT THE SUBJECT OF THE ENGLISH DEPARTMENT IS A TRADITION WE SHOULD DISCARD AS OPPRESSIVE AND IRRELEVANT IS PART OF THE PROBLEM.

I DON'T THINK IT'S THE CORE PROBLEM AND I THINK ACTUALLY, ENGLISH PROFESSORS ARE WAKING UP TO THIS PROBLEM AND ARE MOVING MORE IN THE DIRECTION I'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT BUT IT IS A PROBLEM AND PERCEPTION BECOMES REALITY AS WE ALL KNOW IF THAT'S WHAT STUDENTS THINK.

>> AMONG YOUR MANY BOOKS IS A BOOK ABOUT COLLEGE.

WHAT IS COLLEGE FOR?

IT HAS BEEN AND COULD BE.

ONE OF THE THINGS YOU POINT OUT IN YOUR BOOK IS THAT THESE KIND OF HAND RINGING ABOUT COLLEGE AND THE QUALITY OF TEACHING AND WHAT ARE WE TEACHING IS NOT NEW BUT THERE SEEMS TO BE SOMETHING, SOMETHING NEW HERE.

I MEAN IF YOU LOOK AT THE NUMBER ENROLLING IN ENGLISH DEPARTMENTS IN THIS SITUATION IT'S FALLEN.

ESPECIALLY FOUR-YEAR UNIVERSITIES NATHAN WRITES IN HIS PIECE.

HE TALKS ABOUT HARVARD AND ARIZONA STATE.

SO DO YOU THINK THIS IS KIND OF A PARTICULARLY I DON'T KNOW IF I WANT TO SAY PRECARIOUS MOMENT BUT A PARTICULAR MOMENT WHERE SOMETHING REALLY SPECIFIC IS GOING ON HERE THAT WE NEED TO PAY ATTENTION TO?

>> IT IS ABSOLUTELY.

IT A PARTICULAR MOMENT WHEN PEOPLE BELIEVE IN THE HUMANIIES NEED TO STEP UP AND THINK OF WAYS TO TEACH HUMANITIES AND WHETHER IT'S APPROPRIATE TO WORRY ABOUT HOW MANY ENGLISH MAJORS THERE ARE.

THAT'S NOT A PRODUCTIVE PATH TO GO DOWN.

I CAN'T MAKE A GOOD ARGUMENT IN MOST CASES FOR A YOUNG PERSON TO CHOOSE AN ENGLISH MAJOR IF THEY ASPIRE TO A LIFE AS A COLLEGE PROFESSOR, WHICH IS A RISKY BET BUT I CAN MAKE A VERY GOOD ARGUMENT THEY SHOULD READ BOOKS AND DEBATE AND DISCUSS THE THEMES OF THOSE BOOKS WITH THEIR PEERS IN A CLASSROOM WITH A SENSITIVE AND INTERESTING TEACHER AND I SEE EVIDENCE WHERE I WANT TO VA THE PROBLEM CAN BE TURN INTO AN OF TIMESTY.

WE SEE EVIDENCE THAT AT MANY INSTITUTIONS THAT DO NOT MAKE IT INTO THE ARTICLE, THE FACULTY HAS WOKEN UP TO THE REALITY IF THEY SIT BACK AND WAIT FOR THE STUDENTS TO COME TO THEM, THEY'RE GOING TO BE WAITING A LONG TIME WHAT THEY NEED TO DO IS GET UP AND GO TO WHERE THE STUDENTS ARE AND WHERE THE STUDENTS ARE IN MOST PLACES IS IN THE GENERAL EDUCATION PROGRAM.

WHICH IS THAT SORT OF INTERVAL OF ARRIVING AND STUDENTS ARE ASKED TO EXPLORE SUBJECTS THEY MAY NO BE FAMILIAR AND THE INSTITUTIONS THINKS IS IMPORTANT AS ADULTS AND CITIZENS.

PURDUE UNIVERSITY WHICH IS A STEM CENTRIC THE VAST MAJORITY ARRIVE THERE ALSO ASPIRING TO BECOME ENGINEERS.

THEY GOT A NEW DEAN THAT DISCOVERED FEWER THAN 10% OF THE STUDENTS THERE HAD EVER TAKEN A LITERATURE CLASS OR A HISTORY CLASS.

SAID THIS IS NOT OKAY.

IDENTIFIED A MAGNETIC HIS PROFESSOR THAT WENT TO THE ENGLISH DEPARTMENT AND SAID SOMETHING LIKE HI, COLLEAGUES, YOU MAY NOTICE YOU DON'T HAVE STUDENTS.

YOUR CLASSES ARE EMPTYING OUT.

WHY DON'T YOU COME WITH ME TO THE GENERAL EDUCATION PROGRAM?

WE'RE GOING TO MEET THE NEW STUDENTS, THE 17-YEAR-OLDS COMING IN PLANNING TO BECOME ENGINEERS AND WE'LL HAVE A SMALL CLASS FOR THEM AND TEACH THEM WHAT WE CALL TRANSFORMATIVE TEXT, NOT GREAT BOOKS, NOT CLASSICS, BUT TRANSFORMATIVE TEXTS BUT WHICH THEY MEANT A TEXT THAT CHANGED THE WORLD AND RETAINS THE POWER TO TRANSFORM INDIVIDUAL LIVES.

THAT PROGRAM BEGAN FULL DISCLOSURE WITH A GRANT OF THE FOUNDATION I PRESIDE FIVE YEARS AGO WITH 60 STUDENTS.

TODAY THERE ARE 4,000 STUDENTS EACHIER AT PURDUE VOLUNTARILY ENROLLING IN THE CLASSES IN THE FIRST YEAR OR FLESH MAN YEAR IN WHICH THEY ARE LEADING SOME BOOKS BY DEAD WHITE MALES, READING "THE ODYSSEY" BY HOMER.

WHY DO THEY RESPOND?

EVERY STUDENT IS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT THE VOYAGE THEY'RE ON IN THEIR LIVES.

LOTS OF STUDENTS ARE CONCERNED ABOUT THE USES AND ABUSES OF TECHNOLOGY.

CAN IT TAKE OVER FROM US?

1984 BECAUSE A LOT OF YOUNG PEOPLE ARE WORRIED ABOUT WHETHER WE'RE DRIFTING TOWARD TOTALITY.

THESE BOOKS ARE POPULAR AND A FEW WILL BECOME HISTORY MAJORS.

NOT SO MANY.

THAT'S OKAY.

THEY'RE HAVING A HUMANITARIAN EXPERIENCE.

>> I WANT TO PUSH YOU WHY THIS MATTERS BECAUSE A LOT OF PEOPLE LISTEN TO THIS CONVERSATION LIKE SORRY, THAT'S TOO BAD.

WE NEED PEOPLE TO WRITE CODE.

WE NEED PEOPLE TO DO YOUR BACK SURGERY WHEN YOU GET TO THAT POINT.

YOU KNOW, LOOK, YOU KNOW, LOVE Y'ALL BUT THAT'S GREAT BUT LITERATURE IS A HOBBY, NOT A JOB.

SO THIS SOCIETY REALLY NEEDS PEOPLE TO DO THESE OTHER THINGS.

WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THEM?

>> A COULD THINGS.

IT'S NOT EITHER OR QUESTION.

ALL THE INTEREST DOCTORS I'VE EVER KNOWN HAVE A HUMAN INTEREST, HAVE HAD SOME LIBERAL EDUCATION BEFORE THEY BECAME MED AND SIGN TIFF IF I CAN SPECIALISTS AND I THINK THAT GOES FOR SCIENTIFIC AND PROCEEDED OUT OF A SENSE OF CURIOSITY AND ADVENTURE YOU GET FROM GETTING A LIBERAL HUMANITIES EDUCATION.

IT NOT EITHER OR.

MORE BROADLY, YES, WE NEED ALL THE SPECIALISTS.

WE NEED ALL THOSE COMPETENT PEOPLE.

WE NEED EXPERTS IN THIS AND THAT BUT WE ALSO NEED CITIZENS, RIGHT?

THOSE PEOPLE ARE ALL CITIZENS.

THEY HAVE TO GRAPPLE WITH TOUGH QUESTIONS LIKE WHERE DO I FIND THE RIGHT BALANCE BETWEEN PERSONAL LIBERTIES AND THE PUBLIC INTEREST?

THE KIND OF QUESTION WE THINK ABOUT DURING THE COVID YEARS AND A NATION STATE IN THE WORLD WHERE MICROBES AND REFUGEES FROM VICIOUS REGIMES DON'T CARE ABOUT NATIONAL BORDERS.

RIGHT?

THOSE ARE HARD QUESTIONS.

THERE ARE NO RIGHT ANSWERS TO THOSE QUESTIONS AND IF WE HAVE A FUNCTIONING DEMOCRACY WHERE POLITICIANS CAN CALL TO ACCOUNT TALKING NONSENSE, WE NEED AN EDUCATED CITIZEN.

DEMOCRACY DEPENDS ON THAT SO YEAH, WE NEED THE TECHNICAL TRAINING BUT WE NEED PEOPLE WHO ARE CAPABLE ABOUT THINKING OF COMPLEX PROBLEMS, LISTENING TO OTHER POINTS OF VIEW AND COMING TO A REASONABLE CONSENSUS ABOUT MOVING FORWARD.

THAT'S THE FUNDAMENTAL CASE FOR HUMANITIES AND WHATEVER IS GOING ON WITH ENROLLMENT AND ENGLISH DEPARTMENTS WE CAN'T AFFORD TO LOSE THE HUMANITIES IN THE COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES.

>> ARE WE RELYING TOO MUCH ON COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES?

DO YOU THINK THERE ARE PERHAPS OTHER PLACES IN SOCIETY THAT SHOULD STEP UP TO PROMOTE HUMANITIES, IDEAS, HISTORY, SO FORTH.

>> THERE SURELY WILL.

PEOPLE ARE JOINING READING GROUPS.

PEOPLE ARE PARTICIPATING IN PUBLIC EVENTS TO DISCUSS THESE ISSUES AND HEAR THOUGHTFUL PEOPLE TALK ABOUT THEM.

IT'S CRITICALLY IMPORTANT THAT STUDENTS GET INTRODUCED TO THESE OPPORTUNITIES IN HIGH SCHOOL BEFORE THEY GET TO COLLEGE BUT I WOULD SAY THERE IS SOMETHING SPECIAL ABOUT THOSE YEARS BETWEEN SAY 17 AND 20, ROUGHLY 21 WHERE YOUNG PEOPLE ARE IN THE SPACE AROUND ADOLESCENTS AND ADULTS AND ACHIEVED A MEASURE OF FREEDOM BUT NOT FULL FREEDOM LIVING WITH FAMILIES.

THAT'S A VERY SPECIAL TIME OF LIFE.

THAT'S A TIME OF LIFE WHEN THE KINDS OF ISSUES WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT HAVE A GREAT INTENSITY AND FEEL DANGEROUS AND EXCITING.

COLLEGES ARE REALLY GOOD PLACES TO PROMOTE THE HABITS OF MIND THAT I'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT AND WHILE OTHER PLACES COULD BE DOING IT, TOO, WE DON'T WANT TO LOSE SIGHT OF THE CENTRALITY OF THE INSTITUTIONS.

>> ARE YOU WORRIED ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT AS CITIZENS, AS A COUNTRY, THAT PEOPLE ARE ABSORBING THE TOOLS TO MAKE THESE KINDS OF DECISIONS TO FUNCTION AS CITIZENS IN A WAY.

THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS WHEN IT COMES TO THINGS LIKE SHOULD WE WEAR MASKS OR NOT AND WHEN AND IF SO AND WHEN?

THOSE ARE THE KINDS OF THINGS WHERE THERE IS NOT ALWAYS ONE RIGHT ANSWER.

IF YOU TAKE THE ARGUMENT THAT YOU KNOW A FUNCTIONAL UNDERSTANDING OF HUMANITY OF ENGLISH AND SCIENCE AND HISTORY IS NECESSARY TO THAT PROJECT, ARE YOU WORRIED WE'RE NOT GETTING IT OR DOING IT?

>> I'M VERY WORRIED BUT OPTIMISTIC.

I THINK IN THE BOOK YOU KINDLY MENTIONED, I SAID SOMETHING LIKE THE COLLEGE CLASSROOM IS A REHEARSAL SPACE FOR DEMOCRACY.

THE COLLEGE CLOSE ROOM IS A PLACE WHERE WE CAN'T RETREAT INTO OUR IDEOLOGICAL CORNERS IF THE FUTURE DOESN'T LET US.

WE HAVE TO BE OPEN TO ALTERNATIVE POINTS OF VIEW.

WE WANT TO LEAVE THE ROOM NOT SURE THAT WE HAVE THE RIGHT ANSWER BUT ACTUALLY HAVING DOUBTS ABOUT THE ANSWER WITH WHICH WE CAME INTO THE ROOM THAT WE WERE CERTAIN ABOUT.

THAT'S THE PLACE WHERE YOU LEARN TO BE A PARTICIPANT IN A DEMOCRATIC SOCIETY.

SO I'M WORRIED THAT WE'RE NOT DOING ENOUGH OF IT, PEOPLE DON'T VALUE IT ENOUGH BUT I'M OPTIMISTIC IF WE RECOMMIT TO THE ASPECT OF WHAT COLLEGE IS ABOUT, WE CAN MAKE A SIGNIFICANT CONTRIBUTION TO STRENGTHEN AND MAYBE SAVING OUR DEMOCRACY.

COLLEGE IS A POWERFUL INSTITUTION AND THAT'S WHY IT'S IMPORTANT, I THINK EVERYBODY WHO WANTS TO GO TO COLLEGE SHOULD HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY DO IT IN AN AFFORDABLE WAY.

COLLEGE IS A PLACE WHERE YOU CAN FIGURE OUT HOW YOU WANT TO LIVE IN THIS MESS SAY COMPLICATED MADDENING DEMOCRATIC CULTURE THAT WE HAVE AND THAT WE HAVE TO DO EVERYTHING POSSIBLE TO MAINTAIN.

>> PROFESSOR, THANKS SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU, APPRECIATE IT VERY MUCH.