How Do You Serve a Friend in Despair? David Brooks on Loss

>>> TO A TOPIC THAT'S DIFFICULT BUT IMPORTANT TO DISCUSS.

DAVID BROOKS LOST HIS LIFELONG FRIEND PETER TO SUICIDE THREE YEARS AFTER HE WAS DIAGNOSED WITH CLINICAL DEPRESSION.

HE LEARNED ABOUT PETER'S JOURNEY IN THE LATEST COLUMN HOW DO YOU SERVE A FRIEND IN DESPAIR?

AND JOINS HARRY TO SHARE SOME OF THOSE STORIES.

>> PAULA, THANKS.

DAVID BROOKS, THANKS FOR JOINING US.

YOU WROTE A COLUMN THAT RESONATED WITH SO MANY "NEW YORK TIMES" READERS.

I THINK IN PART BECAUSE IT WASN'T WHAT YOU USUALLY WRITE.

IT WASN'T ABOUT POLITICS.

IT WASN'T ABOUT IDEOLOGY BUT YOUR FRIEND, PETER AND THE TITLE OF IT IS HOW DO YOU SERVE A FRIEND IN DESPAIR?

FIRST, FOR THE AUDIENCE WHO MIGHT NOT HAVE READ THE COLUMN, TELL US ABOUT PETER.

>> PETER AND I MET WHEN WE WERE 11.

WE WENT TO THE SAME SUMMER CAMP IN CONNECTICUT, A CAMP.

WE STARTED AS CAMPERS AND WE WERE THERE FOR ABOUT TEN YEARS TOGETHER AS CAMPERS AND COUNSELORS.

AND WE STAYED FRIENDS FOR LIFE.

THE OLDEST FRIEND I HAD.

I DESCRIBED HIM AS PLAYFUL.

HE WAS THE KIND OF GUY WHO THE STORY I TELL IS HE WAS SKIPPING AROUND OUR LITTLE DINING ROOM THERE.

HE WAS A BIG GUY, PROBABLY ABOUT 6'3", 6'4" AND HE'S SKIPPING AROUND, YOU KNOW, JUST BEING HIS YOU JOYOUS SELF AND HE LANDS FLAT ON HIS BACK AND WE CRACK UP.

HE CRACKS UP.

THAT TO ME IS HIM.

AS HE AGED, HE GOT MORE SERIOUS.

HE DID WELL IN SCHOOL.

JOINED THE NAVY AND BECAME AN EYE SURGEON AND HE WAS -- MY WIFE HAD A PHRASE ABOUT HIM I PUT IN THE PIECE WHICH WAS HE WAS EXTRAORDINARY AND ORDINARY AT THE SAME TIME.

HE WAS MASCULINE THE WAY YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO BE BUT UNDER STATED AND GENTLE, A FATHER THE WAY YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO BE A FATHER FILLED WITH PLAYFULNESS AND JOY AND PRIDE IN HIS SONS AND HE ALWAYS SAID HE WAS THE LUCKIEST MAN IN HIS MARRIAGE BECAUSE THE PERSON HE WANTED TO BE TALKING TO EVERY NIGHT WAS SITTING ACROSS FROM HIM AT THE DINING ROOM TABLE.

HE HAD A RICH AND BLESSED LIFE.

>> YOU DESCRIBE A CHANGE IN THE SPRING OF 2019.

WHAT HAPPENED?

>> YEAH, WE WENT BACK TO CAMP TO HANG OUT THERE AND IT WAS IN JUNE OF 2019.

AND MY WIFE NOTICED SOMETHING IMMEDIATELY IN HIM THAT HIS ASSET, HIS EMOTIONAL STATE HAD GONE FLAT AND THERE WAS A FLATNESS IN HIS VOICE.

AND THERE WAS A CERTAIN THING WE DID EVERY TIME, YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BELIEVE THIS, HARRY, BUT I PLAY BASKETBALL AND SO OUR FAVORITE THING TO DO IS PLAY BASKETBALL AND THEN GO RUN AND JUMP IN THE LAKE BY THERE AND GO SWIMMING.

AND HE WAS DOING THE THING HE LOVED TO DO MOST IN THE WORLD AND HE STILL WASN'T ENJOYING IT.

SO HE PULLED US ASIDE AT THE END OF THE WEEKEND AND SAID THERE IS SOMETHING A MISS AND SOMETHING DIFFERENT GOING ON WITH ME.

HE ASKED FOR OUR FRIENDSHIP AND SUPPORT, WHICH WAS EASY TO GIVE.

>> SO HE WAS CONSCIOUS THERE WAS A CHANGE IN HOW HE WAS PERCEIVING THE WORLD.

WHAT STEPS WAS HE TAKING TO FIGURE IT OUT?

>> HE WAS A DOCTOR.

SO HE WAS EARLY ON DIAGNOSED WITH CLINICAL DEPRESSION.

AND HE OF COURSE SAW -- I SAID THERE WERE ALMOST TWO STINTS DURING THE THREE YEARS HE SUFFERED FROM DEPRESSION.

THE FIRST PETE WAS THE ONE THAT WAS SUFFERING AND THE SECOND PETE WAS STANDING BACK AND OBSERVING HIMSELF AND JUST TRYING TO FIGURE OUT AND THEY WENT THROUGH EVERY POSSIBLE TREATMENT THEY COULD THINK OF.

AND I THINK THAT THE TOUR THROUGH THE HEALTH CARE SYSTEM WAS FILLED WITH CHOICES AND SEVERE AND BITTER DISAPPOINTMENTS WHEN SOMETHING WOULDN'T WORK.

AND HIS WIFE JEN AND I HAVE SPOKEN OFTEN ABOUT THIS.

THAT SHE -- THEY BOTH CAME TO REALIZE THAT THE MENTAL HEALTH CARE SYSTEM IS HORRIBLY SILOED AND IN HER CASE SHE HAD CANCER AND THEY HAVE THE TUMOR BOARD A BUNCH OF DIFFERENT DOCTORS BRINGING DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVES ON ONE CASE BUT IN MENTAL HEALTH, AT LEAST IN MANY PLACES, YOU TRY ONE TREATMENT WITH ONE DOCTOR AND BUILD A RELATIONSHIP WITH THAT DOCTOR AND IF THE TREATMENT DOESN'T WORK, YOU'RE GONE AND OFF TO THE NEXT DOCTOR AND SO IT'S JUST ONE SILO AFTER ANOTHER.

AND SO HE WAS NOT SOMEONE WHO WAS GOING UNTREATED.

HE WAS SOMEONE WHO TRIED EVERYTHING.

THREE YEARS WITH THIS BRUTAL ILLNESS, THESE LYING VOICES, THESE OBSESSIVE COMPULTION AND IT'S AMAZING HOW LITTLE RESEARCH MONEY WE'RE DEVOTING TO IT.

IT'S AN EPIDEMIC.

>> PART OF WHAT IS INTRIGUING ABOUT YOUR FRIEND TO A LOT OF READERS IS THAT THIS IS A PERSON AND WE SAY THIS OFTEN AFTER SUICIDE SEEMED TO HAVE IT ALL.

HE HAD A SUPPORT SYSTEM.

HE HAD PEOPLE THAT HE LOVED.

WONDERFUL FAMILY.

HE WAS AWARE THAT THIS WAS HAPPENING AND YET, AT THE END HE TOOK HIS OWN LIFE AND WHAT DOES THAT SAY TO YOU ABOUT HOW DEEP DEPRESSION IS?

>> YEAH, IT'S JUST A MONSTER OF A DISEASE.

AND, YOU KNOW, I'M NOT -- STEVEN FRY HAS A SAYING, THE ACTOR THAT IF YOU'RE A FRIEND WITH DEPRESSION, DON'T ASK WHY AND JUST WALK WITH THEM AND BE THERE AT THE OTHER END.

I THINK -- I'VE LEARNED A LOT FROM THAT THAT YOU DON'T WANT TO ASK WHY.

I'M NOT SURE, YOU KNOW, PETE HAD THEORIES, I'M NOT SURE THERE IS A WHY.

IN MY OWN LITTLE WAY, I LEARNED A LOT ABOUT THE DISEASE DURING THOSE THREE YEARS.

AND THE FIRST THING I LEARNED WAS THAT DON'T THINK YOU CAN UNDERSTAND IT BY EXTRAPOLATING BY YOUR OWN PERIODS OF SADNESS IF YOU NEVER SUFFERED YOUR OWN DEPRESSION.

IT'S NOT SADNESS BUT AN ALTERED STATE OF CONSCIOUSNESS.

AND I LEARNED THAT, YOU KNOW, DON'T TRY TO FIX THE OTHER PERSON.

EARLY IN THOSE THREE YEARS TALKING BY PHONE MOSTLY DURING COVID, I WOULD SAY, YOU KNOW, YOU USED TO LOVE GOING TO VIETNAM AND DOING SURGERY AND, YOU KNOW, CURING PEOPLE.

DO THAT.

GO DO THAT.

THAT WAS MY SUGGESTION.

I SINCE LEARNED IF YOU TRY TO GIVE PEOPLE SUGGESTIONS OUT TO GET OUT OF IT, REALLY YOU'RE TELLING THEM YOU DON'T GET IT AND DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT THEY'RE GOING THROUGH.

IT NOT IDEAS WHAT THEY'RE GOING THROUGH BUT MOTIVATIONAL DESIRE AND LOSS OF ALL PLEASURE.

SECOND THING I WOULD DO IS LIKE SAY YOU GOT A GREAT -- JUST -- WE JUST SAID YOU HAVE IT ALL.

YOU'RE SUCCESSFUL AND VERY ACCOMPLISHED SURGEON.

YOU'VE GOT WONDERFUL KIDS.

A WONDERFUL MARRIAGE.

THINK HOW GOOD YOUR LIFE IS.

THAT'S ALSO NOT THE RIGHT THING TO SAY.

IF YOU TELL PEOPLE THEY SHOULD BE ENJOYING, THEY FEEL BAD ABOUT NOT ENJOYING THINGS THAT ARE ENJOYABLE.

SO I LEARNED THAT'S JUST NOT HOW TO DO IT.

AND I'LL JUST FINALLY THE ONE THING PETE FOUND SOLIS IN, I SENT A VIDEO THAT WAS A SERMON GIVEN BY MY COLLEAGUE MICHAEL WHO SUFFERED FROM DEPRESSION AND GAVE A SERMON ABOUT IT AND HE SAID DEPRESSION IS A MALFUNCTION IN THE APPARATUS WE USE TO PERCEIVE REALITY AND THAT IS THE PERSON WHO IS SUFFERING DEPRESSION ISN'T SEEING REALITY FRANKLY THE WAY THEY SHOULD AND MIKE SAID HE HAD THESE OBSESSIVE COMPULSIVE VOICES IN HIS HEAD LYING TO HIM THAT YOU'RE NOT WORTH ANYTHING.

NO ONE WILL MISS YOU.

AND I THINK WHEN I SENT PETE THAT VIDEO, PETE SAID YES, THAT'S WHAT IT'S LIKE.

SO I REALLY GOT AN APPRECIATION FOR THE MAGNITUDE OF THE DISEASE.

>> I LOST A FRIEND TO THIS A FEW YEARS AGO AND I STILL STRUGGLE WITH KIND OF MIX OF EMOTIONS THAT I FEEL ABOUT IT AND ON ONE HAND, OBVIOUSLY, I'M INCREDIBLY SAD THAT I LOST THIS BUDDY OF MINE WHO I LOVED FOR A LONG TIME AND WHO I WON'T GET TO GROW OLD WITH AND THEN AT THE SAME TIME THERE ARE THESE LITTLE PANGS OF ANGER LIKE WHY DID YOU DO THIS?

WHY DID YOU LEAVE YOUR WIFE AND DAUGHTERS?

WHY DID YOU LEAVE ME AND OUR FRIENDS?

IT'S A VERY COMPLEX WEB OF EMOTIONS THAT THIS TRIGGERS FOR SO MANY PEOPLE AROUND YOU IN A WAY THAT IF YOU BUSTED A LEG, IT WOULDN'T.

IT JUST HORRIFYING TO THOSE LEFT BEHIND.

>> THAT'S BECAUSE WE HAVE AN ILLUSION IT IS FREE WILL, THAT WE HAVE AN ILLUSION THAT PERSON'S MIND IS ON OUR SIDE.

AND THAT PERSON'S MIND IS ON HIS SIDE.

AND SO WE ASSUME OUR MIND IS ON OUR SIDE AND SO WE THINK WELL, HOW DID YOU DO THIS?

I THINK PETE -- I THINK HE NEVER TOLD ME THIS BUT IN HIS FINAL DAYS, HE PERSUADED HIMSELF HE WAS DOING A FAVOR FOR HIS FAMILY, RELIEVING THEM THE BURDEN AND MAYBE YOUR FRIEND HAD THE SAME THOUGHTS AND ALL I CAN TELL YOU IF ANYBODY HAS THAT THOUGHT GO THROUGH THEIR MIND, HAVING LIVED THROUGH THE WRECKAGE OF WHAT HAPPENED, THAT THOUGHT IS COMPLETELY WRONG.

AND BUT, YOU KNOW, SO I THINK WE LEARNED TO TRY TO OVERCOME THAT THOUGHT THAT YOU JUST MADE A BIG MISTAKE BECAUSE THE MACHINE WITH WHICH THEY MADE THE MISTAKE WAS SEVERELY MALFUNCTIONING AND THE OTHER THING, I'D SAY TWO OTHER QUICK THINGS, HARRY.

THE FIRST THING I LEARNED I SHOULD HAVE DONE OTHER THINGS DIFFERENTLY.

I SHOULD HAVE SENT HIM MORE POSTCARDS, TEXTS SAYING I'M THINKING ABOUT YOU.

I FEEL REGRET ABOUT THAT.

I DON'T THINK THERE IS ANYTHING ANY OF US COULD HAVE DONE TO ALTER WHAT HAPPENED.

AND SO THAT IS -- THAT'S I THINK SOMETHING THOSE OF US STILL HERE SHOULD GIVE OURSELVES, YOU KNOW, SOME FORGIVENESS ABOUT THAT THIS DISEASE -- IF IT WAS BIGGER THAN MY FRIEND PETE OR YOUR FRIEND WILL BE BIGGER THAN US.

>> ACCORDING TO THE NIH BETWEEN 2000 AND 2020 ONE IN FIVE AMERICANS WERE AFFECTED BY MENTAL ILLNESS AND THE CDC PUT OUT A YOUTH RISK BEHAVIOR SURVEY THIS MONTH, 60% OF FEMALE STUDENTS EXPERIENCED PERSISTENT FEELINGS OF SADNESS OR HOPELESSNESS DURING THE PAST YEAR, NEARLY 25% MADE A SUICIDE PLAN.

THAT'S ONE IN FOUR YOUNG GIRLS.

THIS IS JUST STAGGERING THAT IF IT WAS ANYTHING ELSE THAT WAS AFFECTING THIS LARGE OF A PROPORTION OF OUR POPULATION, YOU'D THINK WE'D MOVE HEAVEN AND EARTH TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

>> YEAH, AND THE RESEARCH AND DEPRESSION IS STILL SO MUCH SMALLER THAN CANCER AND OTHER THINGS OBVIOUSLY WE SHOULD BE RESEARCHING.

I THINK IN TWO LEVELS, FIRST ON THE INDIVIDUAL LEVEL WITH MY FRIEND OR YOUR FRIEND, THERE IS NO GREAT TREND THAT EXPLAINS IT.

IT WAS PARTICULAR TO THAT PERSON.

BUT I THINK SOCIETY, SOCIETY LEVEL I THINK WE CAN POINT TO SOME TRENDS.

FOR TEENAGE GIRLS, IT'S SOCIAL MEDIA.

SOCIAL MEDIA PARTICIPATION IS AT THE HIGHEST AND LOOK AT THE TRENDS WHEN IT REALLY TURNED AND SPIKED AROUND 2012, 2013 AND THAT'S WHEN THE SMART PHONE HAPPENED.

IT DOESN'T PLAY A ROLE FOR PEOPLE SUFFERING SUICIDE OF OLDER MEN PARTICULARLY BUT I'D POINT TO TWO THINGS, ONE, THE LOSE OF COMMUNITY.

THE BOWLING ALONE.

THE IDEA PEOPLE USED TO BE SHROUDED IN THIS WEB OF THICK RELATIONSHIPS AND A BOWLING LEAGUE A CHURCH, SYNAGOGUE, MOSS, PEOPLE ARE NOT ENSHROUDED IN THE WEBS OF RICH RELATIONSHIP THE WAY THEY USED TO AND SECOND AND THIS WILL BE A LITTLE MORE CONTROVERSIAL BUT MY THEORY, WHICH IS THAT FOR MANY ACCEPT -- CENTURIES IN OUR DIFFERENT CULTURES, WE TAUGHT EACH OTHER HOW TO BE CONSIDERED TO EACH OTHER IN THE DAILY RITUALS OF LIFE.

THERE WAS A MORAL TRIBULATION HOW TO BE KIND AND DO HARD SOCIAL SKILLS AND HAVE A HARD CONVERSATION AND DISAGREE WITH RESPECT, HOW TO ASK FOR FORGIVENESS AND HOW TO SIT WITH SOMEONE SUFFERING AND HAVE A GOOD CONSERVATION.

FOR SOME REASON IN OUR CULTURE, WE DON'T TEACH THOSE SKILLS AND I FEEL WE JUST DROPPED THE BALL IN TEACHING ELOQUENT MENTAL SOCIAL SKILLS OF TENDING TO EACH OTHER.

>> WHAT IS IT YOU THINK THAT EXPLAINS THE KIND OF DISORIENTATION FOR US LEFT BEHIND?

YOU WRITE ELOQUENTLY THAT IT'S AS IF WE WENT TO MONTANA AND SUDDENLY THE MOUNTAINS DISAPPEARED.

THAT'S A GOOD WAY TO LOOK AT IT.

WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS THAT IT IS SO MONUMENTAL TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY?

>> YEAH, I MEAN, PETE IS BASICALLY A LIFELONG FRIEND I ALWAYS ASSUMED WOULD BE THERE AND TO HAVE HIM NOT THERE IS DISORIENTED.

WHEN THE DEATH OF A FRIEND IS DIFFERENT AND UNUSUAL AND I FOUND MORE SERIOUS THAN ANTICIPATED AND YOU AND ME AND MARK SHIELDS WOULD GET-TOGETHERS TO TALK ABOUT SPORTS.

>> YEAH.

>> AND SO MARK AND I WERE PARTNERS ON "THE NEWS HOUR" FOR 20 YEARS AND HE DIED LAST YEAR AND JUST LIKE THAT GUY HAS JUST BEEN AROUND AND HE'S BEEN WOVEN INTO YOUR LIFE AND MARK ALSO DIED.

THOSE THREE LOSES WERE -- LOSSES FOR ME WERE GRIEF INTO ONE'S FRIENDS AND I LEARNED WHEN YOU SUFFER GRIEF, IT BASICALLY UPSETS ALL THE MENTAL MODELS OF REALITY THEY HAVE IN YOU.

WHAT ONE EXPERT CALLED YOUR ASSUMPTION WORLD, THE ASSUMPTIONS YOU MAKE AND THOSE MODELS ARE DESTROYED AND YOU HAVE TO GO THROUGH A PROCESS TO MAKE A NEW SET OF MODELS.

NEW SET OF ASSUMPTIONS WHAT IT'S LIKE AND THAT'S A PROCESS OF GRIEF THAT'S UNCONSCIOUS AND GOES AT ITS OWN PACE AND FILLED WITH REPUTATIONS AND PAINFUL MEMORIES AND PAINFUL MEMORIES AND UNPREDICTABLE AND THERE IS NO SHORTCUT FOR THAT PROMISE.

>> YOUR ARTICLE, YOUR TITLE HOW DO YOU SERVE A FRIEND IN DESPAIR?

IS YOUR TIP HOW WE CAN SERVE PEOPLE IN OUR LIVES WE FIND IN THESE SITUATIONS?

>> I THINK IN ANY ENCOUNTER WITH SOMEONE WHO IS SUFFERING, THEY'RE LOOKING TO YOU TO ANSWER A FEW BASIC QUESTIONS.

DO I MATTER TO YOU?

AM I A PRIORITY FOR YOU?

ARE YOU STILL THERE?

WILL YOU LEAVE ME?

THOSE ARE THE ONLY QUESTIONS YOU CAN ANSWER.

YOU CAN'T ANSWER THE QUESTIONS WHY IS THIS HAPPENING?

YOU CAN'T ANSWER THE QUESTIONS HOW DO I GET OUT OF THIS?

YOU CAN ONLY ANSWER THE QUESTION AM I A PRIORITY FOR YOU?

WILL YOU WALK WITH ME?

I THINK THAT'S THE BEST YOU CAN DO IS RIDE IT OUT AND TOWARDS THE END OF THE PROCESS, I WASN'T TRYING TO DO MUCH BUT BE PRESENT OF THE NORMAL FRIEND WE HAD AND HOPING HE WOULD BE ABLE TO BE PRESENT AND BE THE NORMAL FRIEND HE WAS.

IN SOME SENSE, IT'S A SCALING DOWN OF EXPECTATIONS BUT TO BE PRESENT IS NO SMALL THING TO SOMEBODY AND THEN I HAD ANOTHER FRIEND THAT WAS A MUTUAL FRIEND OF MINE THAT SAID, YOU KNOW, GIVE HIS SPOUSE AND PRIMARY CARETAKERS TIME OFF.

GIVE THEM TIME OFF.

THAT'S SOMETHING I WISH I DID, COVID HURT THAT BUT I THINK THOSE WERE ALSO WISE WORDS.

>> COLUMNIST FOR "THE NEW YORK TIMES", DAVID BROOKS, THANKS FOR THE COLUMN AND WRITING THIS AND MY CONDOLENCES TO PETE'S FAMILY AND YOU AND THE REST OF PETE'S FRIENDS FOR THEIR LOSE.

>> THANK YOU.

GOOD TO BE WITH YOU AGAIN AND GOOD TO BE ABLE TO TALK ABOUT PETE.

>> A WORTHY CONVERSATION THERE.

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