One of the greatest beauties of a book, in my opinion, is that there's no passport needed to take you places you want to go or never even knew existed.

Hi, I'm Holly Jackson, the host of books by the River.

And I'm here to navigate the conversation of those who draw the maps for some of the most interesting journeys found in a book.

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ Major funding for Books by the River is brought to you by the ETV Endowment of South Carolina.

For more than 40 years, the ETV Endowment of South Carolina has been a partner of South Carolina ETV and South Carolina Public Radio.

This program is supported by South Carolina Humanities, a not for profit organization inspiring, engaging, and enriching South Carolinians with programs on literature, history, culture, and heritage.

SC Humanities receives funding from the National Endowment for the Humanities.

Democracy demands wisdom.

Additional funding for Books by the River is provided by Visit Beaufort, Port Royal and Sea Islands and Osher Lifelong Learning Institute at USC Beaufort.

Holly> So excited to have Jeffrey Dale Lofton here joining us, the author of Red Clay Suzie.

Thanks so much for coming.

Jeffrey> Thank you for having me.

I'm so excited to be here.

I love Beaufort.

Holly> Yeah, we're sitting here in Beaufort, South Carolina by the river, hence the name of the show.

But you've been here a time or two and dates back to 1988 you said?

Jeffrey> '88, yeah.

Holly> Can you tell us a little bit about all that?

Jeffrey> Sure.

Well, I live in Washington, D.C. now, and I first headed up to D.C. in 1988.

I had a summer job and I grew up in Warm Springs, Georgia, which is sort of due west of here.

And we always, so I travel at night.

I was headed up for my summer job and it was, you know, like 10:00 at night.

And I was terrified.

I was so scared to go to the big city.

And instead of heading out to D.C., I headed over to Savannah and up to Beaufort.

And I sat there in my car and I watched the sunrise come up and it calmed me.

It gave me courage.

And the reason I came here is because I'd always been a kind of a closet, secret writer, you know?

And I always wanted to be a writer.

And when I was very little, I was in Atlanta, and my aunt, the city aunt, Aunt Mary Jo, pointed to a man and said, "That man writes things," and it was Pat Conroy.

And I always remember that.

Of course I read his books and something just said, "Go over there."

And I drove over, watched the sunrise came up, got my courage and drove up to D.C.. Holly> Wow, that's quite a story.

I love that that's kind of like a marking time for you from your path as an author and going to D.C.

I mean, that had to be a big move for you because you were kind of from country of Georgia, right?

Jeffrey> Yeah, a little small town, one block, Main Street, one red light, Palm Springs.

And it's where Roosevelt's Little White House is located.

And that is the town industry.

It was for forever.

And I wanted to because I am, I've always felt like an outsider, a "fringy," living on the fringes always sort of on the outside looking in and not really seeing anything in that world that matched what I felt deep down inside of my heart.

I thought at that young age that I needed to go and see another part of the world and got a summer job in a show I was an actor for a number of years.

So this was for the Maryland Shakespeare Festival.

And I drove up to to do the show for that summer.

And then I came back, packed all my bags and went back up.

And I moved to D.C. after that summer.

Holly> Now, you said you always felt like you were on the fringes.

You kind of felt like you weren't like those around you, which I'm sure came with a lot of pain as a child, I'd love for you to talk about that.

But also how, if at all, that actually you can see now because of that, I am able to be this in terms of your beautiful, expressive writing.

Jeffrey> Oh, thank you.

Well, there's a direct connection.

I started writing.

I, I didn't really know I was writing a novel.

When I started writing it, I started writing Red Clay Suzie when I first left home to attend college, Lagrange College in Lagrange, Georgia.

It's only like 30 miles from Warm Springs.

But the best thing about Lagrange College in Lagrange, Georgia, when I was a teenager is that they were away from where I grew up <laughs> Holly> "These are not my people."

Jeffrey> And the effect on me was you know, I had spent so many years pushing down humiliation and frustration and shame because from a very early age, four or five years old, you know, back when were called "youngins" in the South, I was the subject of bullying and body shaming from even members of my own extended family.

And I had pushed all that away until I was on my own for the first time.

And as a natural response to that, I started to journal about it.

I was having a very difficult time and no one said, "Why don't you write about it?

You might just feel better."

No one said that.

I didn't even think about it that way.

It was just a natural response to what I was feeling.

Then coursework got in the way, I was overwhelmed.

There was no time, no mental space to continue writing.

So I put those journals away.

I thought I'd go back to it, you know, after a semester or two.

But I didn't go back to it for about 30 years.

Holly> Wow.

Jeffrey> And so fast forward to just a few years ago, and I read two books in succession.

I reread To Kill a Mockingbird by Harper Lee, and I wanted to read it again as an adult with my adult perspective.

And there was a recognition with that other outsider child, Scout, and that really indelibly drawn community that she grew up in and my own experience.

I didn't see it as a younger person.

And the next week I read Call Me by Your Name by Andre Aciman and those two books together, it was like, it's the power of literature for me.

It's like two sticks of kindling rubbed together by the most effeminate Boy Scout you've ever met.

And I was on fire, and I went back to those journals that I had started so many years ago, and I pulled them out because I don't throw away anything.

And I was just I was so embarrassed about how emotionally raw they were.

And I realized, I've got to finish this story, I've got to get this out of me.

And so I started writing and I didn't really have a process.

So I found myself on my phone, making notes on my commute on the train to and from my job at the Library of Congress.

And I kept making more notes and I'd be writing a little passage.

And I looked up one day and I thought, I'm writing a book on my telephone.

And that's how I did it.

I wrote the first draft on my telephone.

Holly> Wow.

Jeffrey> And I realized about halfway through that first draft that I was no longer writing it for myself.

I was writing it for young people who struggle today as I did when I was younger.

Holly> Okay.

So you say that you said you were a closet writer.

So you have these things that are literally in notebooks that you've handwritten, that you have kept a secret for decades and kept up with, which is amazing in itself that they've through moves and all the kind of things that you've been able to keep up with them and keep them a secret.

But it must have always been on your mind.

You go back to it and you read these things and you said you were embarrassed of how emotionally raw they were, but then you let it out to the world.

Tell me about that transition of saying, OK, now it's time for everybody to know and I don't even care anymore where you used to care so deeply.

Jeffrey> Well, I did it in baby steps.

You know, the first step was to begin writing again to, I think of it as a it was an expunging of my insides.

I've come to think of it and call it an exorcism by exposition, because I knew that I had to get this out of me, and the best way I knew how to write it down.

I never intended for anybody to read it.

<laughs> It didn't even cross my mind that anybody would ever that I would ever let anybody, much less anybody would want to.

It was only about halfway through that draft.

And I thought and I learned a statistic that really changed my mind, not changed my mind, but encouraged me to share it with others.

39% of LGBTQ youth seriously consider ending their lives every year, and about 12% of them actually attempted.

That's staggering to me.

I was, I couldn't believe it.

And it is by grace that I'm here today.

And so I wanted to write something that is sort of a road map, not for a car, but a road map for the heart and the mind that says you don't have to be perfect to be happy, You don't have to be perfect to live your life.

You have a right to live your life and to live it fully.

And so I did.

I was afraid to put it out in the world.

But I thought the bigger, it was more important to share it than to write it just for myself.

And that's why I took the next steps, you know, sharing it with other people.

First, readers, getting a literary agent, signing a publishing deal.

And once you sign a publishing deal, you can't back out.

So it's done.

Holly> You're there, yeah.

Jeffrey> But I was that's the reason I actually decided to go forward and share it with others.

Holly> But also part of this now is talking through it, talking through painful times for yourself.

But now that you've got the word, gotten the words out there, do you find it easier or is the pain still there?

When you go through it?

Jeffrey> It's much easier.

You know, I came out to my family 30 years ago and - people will ask, "Did it take courage to write the book?"

And it did not take courage to write the book.

Writing the book gave me courage because though I came out to my family 30 years ago, you know that one part of me writing the book and putting it out there has been like coming out again, but as the full me.

Because I have spent my entire life hiding the inside of me and the outside of me because like Philbet, the protagonist in the book, I was born gay with a significant skeletal malformation of the chest in the 1960s.

And I got so exhausted and tired and ashamed of hiding who I am.

And the book has been a way to cast all that off and just be myself.

And so it was painful to write it.

There were certain passages that were very difficult because it's based on - it's inspired by true events, but it has been the best thing I've ever done.

And the reaction, I go out talking at bookstores, and there's always at least one or two young people who come up and say, "I can't believe I feel seen.

I've gotten to, reading your book helped me find the courage to talk to my parents, to be myself."

And there's just no better feeling than to know that your work has had that impact on other people.

Holly> You were having to hide in two ways emotionally and truly physically.

Jeffrey> Yeah.

Holly> Wow.

And so let's go into the book now.

How would you describe what Red Clay Suzie is about?

And let's bring it into this jar we have that our viewers are probably like, did they mean to put that there?

<laughs> Yes, we did as part of our story today.

So let's talk about it and the car.

Jeffrey> Well, that jar holds red clay from my parent's yard.

And you know, the title, Red Clay Suzie, red clay is a, Southern literature is so the sense of place is so important in Southern literature.

And so red clay in the title is a reference to location.

It's set in Warm Springs, Georgia, and I carry some red clay with me wherever I go, because most places in the South, you know, they know what red clay is.

But in California, they don't know what red clay is.

And so I take it with me and I pass it around and I say, "I'm bringing a little bit of Georgia here to share the story."

And, you know, when you when you touch it, when you smell it, it's unlike any other sensation that I've ever experienced.

It marks you once it touches you, you are you are stained forever.

No matter where I go, no matter where I travel, find myself, I'll always be a Southerner.

I'll always be a Southern writer.

And carrying around a little bit of red clay reminds me of that.

But red Clay Susie is about Philbet, who, like me, as I mentioned, is born gay with a significant skeletal malformation, and he is fueled by tomato sandwiches and green milkshakes.

And he is obsessed with cars.

Holly> Like you.

Jeffrey> Like me, the first being a 1968 Mercury Cougar Matchbox with doors that open.

And he goes through a series of experiences that shake his confidence and destroy his innocence and make him think that he is not worthy of being loved, especially by an older boy he idolizes to distraction, but ultimately, it's an uplifting story, story of affirmation for people who are living their lives on the outside, the "fringies," living on the fringes, as I call them.

So and I won't tell you, you know, referencing the title, red clay is about place.

Suzie, I can't tell you, I don't want to spoil it.

You'll have to read the book to figure out who Suzie is.

Holly> All right, So I hear you talk about Warm Springs, Georgia, and it seems to be a fond place for you and a place that you proudly say, but then you have all these painful memories.

There must have been some good too.

Jeffrey> There has been a lot of good in writing the book.

I was afraid for the reaction from my family, especially.

But I'll tell you, there have been several reactions one was when I first signed the book deal, the publishing deal, and I was visiting my parents and I went out to talk to my father.

And now there's, we live in a little frame house and if you are familiar, there's a cutout for the front porch.

And years and years ago I went back to visit them and they had closed that in.

It was about the size, it's got the footprint of a doodlebug, a little VW bug.

Well, they had expanded it by two.

So, like you could put two VW bugs in there now.

Closed in, but a lot of windows and then, but the thing is, on that front porch, there was this rod-iron post, one rod-iron post with a little curlicue "S" in the middle at it.

You know.

You've seen those.

Yeah, well, I walked in and they had left that post in the middle of the room.

I said, "Why don't you take that post out?"

They said, "The roof would fall in."

I said, "You could engineer that out."

Nevertheless, it's still there to this day.

And on either side are two reclining chairs, my mother's and my father's and a TV right in front.

And I think that post is probably a good idea to keep those chairs separated.

Good idea.

But I walked up, and my father's in his recliner like this, you know, and he's often got his hand hooked on that post and he's got his walking cane and a few other things that he needs throughout the day hung on that post.

And I said, "Daddy."

He said,"Yeah?"

I said, "I have some news."

"Yeah?"

"I wrote a book."

"You wrote a what?"

"I wrote a book.

I wrote a novel."

"You wrote a novel?"

"Yeah."

He never looked at me the entire time.

And finally he said, "Is it going to be in hardback?"

<both laugh> Holly> Was that his seal of approval?

Jeffrey> And I backed out of the room thinking I had come away as well as I probably could, and that was the end of that.

Holly> That's all that was said?

Jeffrey> That's all that was said.

And then, when the book came out, I went to I was in Georgia doing a, talking about the book, and I visited my parents.

And, you know, when you're a child, you got those big sheets of poster paper glue and glitter and you got a science project?

They came to the door outside the front door with this big piece of paper, about half the size of a poster board.

And on that board they had written two columns of words and they said, "Did we get it right?"

And I said, "Did you get what right?"

And on that piece of paper were names of characters from Red Clay Suzie, Holly> Trying to figure out who's who.

Jeffrey> Other column, real people and mapped one to the other.

Holly> Did they get it right?

Jeffrey> I'm not going to confirm or deny anything.

<laughs> But they've made a parlor game of it.

Holly> <laughs> I love it.

Okay, but they were okay with the book?

Jeffrey> They have been very supportive.

We haven't had any real meaningful conversations because of the book, but they are very supportive.

And most of my aunts and uncles have passed on.

But my cousins, I've gotten lots of calls and texts and they said, you know, we the the imagery takes us back to that time.

But we had no idea that you had such a rough time of it.

I was good at hiding it.

Holly> Yeah, well, whenever all this had happened.

Was there ever a time where you said, "I shouldn't have done this, maybe I shouldn't have done this," or you felt confident the whole way through?

Jeffrey> I wouldn't say confident, but I never regretted doing it.

I tried to write.

I followed what I call the "fictionalized memoirist Hippocratic Oath," which is to do no harm.

And there are, I think, a number of ways to do that.

You can simply change names, you can change the sequence of events or assign a certain something to another person or another character.

But even when I had to, even when I wrote something that wasn't flattering to someone, I tried to do it in the kindest possible way and with honesty.

Because to tell one's own truth is to sometimes touch on a story of others.

Holly> Right.

Jeffrey> But I thought it was more important to share this story for those kids who are, who are having such a difficult time of it.

More than you know, what impact it might have on me with family.

Holly> Sure.

I'm really amazed at the time span of when this book began and when it ended.

You talked about those wowing moments of how raw your emotions were.

Did you change those words of you in the beginning, or did you keep it how it was?

Jeffrey> I, so, it's fictionalized.

A lot of it, it's inspired by true events.

Here's an example of something that is true, not to give away too much, but like Philbet's Dad, mine was shot in the head while trying to break up a domestic dispute.

And though I changed the, you know, the details of that event, the core event is true.

And that's why I think of Red Clay Suzie as being based on fact, but not bound by fact.

And so some of the dialog is there are certain passages that are real.

The mother describes the grandmother's process of making sweet tea in a particular way, and my mother said that, so I stole that.

But most of the dialog is made up to fit the story arc, to get a certain idea or point across.

Holly> Now, growing up, I know you say that you were a closet writer, but was there ever a time in English class or something where a teacher said, "You've got a gift here," or were you even hiding your talents in class too?

Jeffrey> I tried to do really well in school.

I was trying to compensate, you know, for other things that I thought weren't great about me.

And so I tried to be an overachiever in school, and I did love English, and those opportunities to write in class, and I got pretty good marks.

So there was encouragement there, but I never imagined that it would grow to anything else, you know?

And so throughout the years, I've written, you know, play scripts and short stories and attempts at other, you know, longer pieces of work.

But those early encouragements always stay with you.

I think anything positive stays with you.

Holly> Tell me what's next.

Does it end here, or does it keep going?

This is just the start?

Jeffrey> Oh, no, it doesn't end here.

I see Red Clay Suzie as the foundation for a three book story arc.

So, Philbet and Knox's story doesn't stop here.

And one of the reasons I want to continue is because of the impact that I see it having you know, I mentioned those statistics about LGBT, LGBTQ youth who are at risk of, you know, ending their lives.

And that's one reason that I decided to donate part of the proceeds of the book to two important organizations, the Born This Way Foundation and the Trevor Project, because they, you know, writing a book, this is my contribution.

But they are, they are designed to enrich the lives of at risk youth and to save them.

So that's one reason that I'm doing that.

Holly> Will you write this one on your phone?

Jeffrey> Well, you know, I'm writing part of it on my phone.

When I travel especially, I don't go into the office as many days after the pandemic.

I work from home a lot of the time, but the time that I would spend on my commute in the morning, I dedicate to writing on my computer in my office because I, you know, I don't wait for the muse to come and sit on my shoulder and say, okay, now time to write.

You've got the idea because it's not always like that.

The discipline, you know, making yourself write every day I think is the key to, to making, to producing something.

So it's not always great, but the act of doing it is important and it gets, it becomes like a second nature in muscle memory.

If you continue to stick with it as with anything, I think.

Holly> Last question for you, I know you have talked about those people who are like you, who you want to help in terms of readers, but what about people like those aunts and uncles?

How do you get the book in their hands?

And have you heard from any people like that who have kind of made their own, had their own moments of realization of maybe how they have treated someone?

Jeffrey> I have gotten so many emails from people, the young, the younger people as well, but also a lot of parents and especially grandparents who say, "My grandchild just came out.

My grandchild is transitioning," something like that.

"What do I say?"

And so there are resources available.

But I've talked, actually got on the phone and talked to a few of them.

And what I do is I refer, I think the author's note says it all, which is some version of "Bullies are paper predators who have no more power over you than you yourself give them."

And once you realize that it's like a gentle wind comes and lifts them away and it is the quality of one's heart and mind that matter most and our physical imperfections, real or perceived, your body is precious, it's beautiful, and treat it with as much kindness and care as you possibly can so that it will take you as far and as long as it is able.

And the most important thing of all is that love, true love is never wrong, and you should bravely bestow it on whomever is worthy of that gift.

And that message is what I hope gets through.

And that's all we need to know, is to say, "I love you, period.

No conditions, I love you."

That's the only thing they have to say.

Holly> Thank you for that.

That's just a beautiful way to end this.

And I appreciate you coming here and being open about your past and what you're doing now.

It just means a lot.

I'm sure it means a lot to those who are watching.

So we really appreciate it.

Jeffrey> This is an excerpt from my debut novel, Red Clay Suzie.

It is my favorite paragraph in the whole book.

It describes the red clay of Georgia.

That was the alchemy of red clay.

I realized, thinking back.

When moist, it had the texture of silk and butter about 30 minutes out of the refrigerator.

When the beating Georgia sun leached it of moisture, it was either hard as a rock or powdery - slippery even - in the heat a day feeling almost liquid against skin.

You stand barefoot in the clay with your eyes closed and you'd have no idea if it's dry dust or hot mud after a sudden downpour that came and went so fast it had no time to cool the surfaces it wet.

When overloaded with water, the clay was a chunky, creamy soup getting everywhere, gumming up everything.

It reminded me of teeth stuck in an overheaped spoonful of peanut butter.

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ Major funding for Books by the River is brought to you by the ETV Endowment of South Carolina.

For more than 40 years, the ETV Endowment of South Carolina has been a partner of South Carolina ETV and South Carolina Public Radio.

This program is supported by South Carolina Humanities, a not for profit organization inspiring, engaging, and enriching South Carolinians with programs on literature, history, culture, and heritage.

SC Humanities receives funding from the National Endowment for the Humanities.

Democracy demands wisdom.

Additional funding for Books by the River is provided by Visit Beaufort, Port Royal and Sea Islands and Osher Lifelong Learning Institute at USC Beaufort.

♪ ♪