The views and opinions expressed are those of the host of the program and its guests.

They do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of w gt e public media.

Welcome to the special community conversation on more than Medicine building community health.

Good health isn't created in an exam room alone every day.

Poverty, homelessness, untreated mental illness, and lack of access to care are shortening the lives and deepening disparities in our community.

The documentary More Than Medicine Building Community Health poses a difficult but essential question.

If we know what makes people sick, what responsibility do we have to act?

Joining us are Doctor Jonathan Ross, Toledo City Council president Vanness Williams, and Adrian Bradley, director of community health and impact for ProMedica Health Systems.

As we explore the urgent work of building a healthier community for everyone.

Doctor John Ross.

You've gained both local and national acclaim for your passionate advocacy for those two often overlooked and underserved.

Your tireless efforts to advance a single payer health care system have helped move the needle on health care reform, while keeping focus squarely on the people most affected by barriers to care.

Thank you.

Thank you for everything you do.

And thank you for being here.

Councilwoman Williams, you.

That's something that's all too rare in politics, and that's remaining grounded in the voices of your constituents while keeping your focus on the larger policy decisions that shape the future of our community.

Your leadership reflects both compassion for individuals and a commitment to the common good.

I really appreciate your voice in this conversation.

And, Miss Bradley, your work has kept you on the front lines of some of our community's greatest health challenges.

You've been a leading voice, and helping us to understand the health is influenced by more than just medical care.

And you've consistently challenged our community to address the root causes of poor health in order to create lasting change.

Thank you so much for being here.

You all are here to discuss.

I think one of the most critical issues in our society today, and that is that we have a population of people who are getting sicker and sicker right in front of us.

We're spending we are the most expensive health care provider in the world, and our outcomes are not near the top.

We know this, but it doesn't change.

Doctor Ross, why doesn't it change money?

I mean, one of the things that is a real problem with our health care system is that the money is focused on sickness care rather than on community care.

And until we really begin to see that it's in the benefit of everybody, for everybody to be in and nobody to be out of, what I would want to call really a health care system, not a sickness care system, which is what I see as a provider and now see as a public health official.

So the people on this panel know that.

They know that the root cause of so much illness has to do with the social determinants how wealthy you are, how well-educated you are, what community you live in, whether there's pollution around you, whether you're eating healthy, whether you've got a safe environment, whether you've got the access to the care that you need.

All those things are part of it.

But we don't want to seem to see it in this country, and I'm not sure why that's the case.

That's going to be my next question.

This is one of the few businesses, and let's not pretend that health care is not a business.

It is.

It's one of the few businesses where they don't seem to care how the customer is doing.

Councilwoman, you're not in your head.

Oh, yes, because I was actually that customer that felt like I was overlooked because of who I was and where I lived at.

And you've consistently had these issues having for sure.

For sure.

Consistently.

Back in 22, I had an infection from a surgery that I had, and it was a major surgery.

And, I took two hospital emergency room visits and was given, a muscle relaxer and sent home.

And I had a fever for over 20 days before someone actually took the time to say, okay, I had to actually go to an infectious disease doctor to figure out why I had a fever, where we know it came from a surgery and you left that.

You left that, you left that experience feeling like what?

Feeling how?

I felt like I was not heard.

I felt like I was not heard from several different places.

Even my own doctor.

It was it was terrible.

And I and I know that experience from past experiences, but it keeps happening.

I do believe what Doctor Ross said.

It's to have and have nots.

So when I finally had to go to the hospital, an emergency room for the last time I got dressed, I put on earrings.

I did my hair, I with a fever, I got dressed, I got my best purse out, and I went to the emergency room.

Did it make a difference?

It did make a difference.

Isn't that a shame?

It made a big difference.

And I also had someone with me as well.

I was tired of telling the story.

I had a fever, and I had to take somebody with me to help advocate for myself.

Because in that time when you're sick, you can't advocate.

That's right.

And when people bring in, let's call it what it is, and it biases to the hospital room where people are sick.

You get treated that way.

And I do believe that wholeheartedly I believe that.

Do you agree, Adrian?

I do.

I think, you know, we all have implicit bias and it it it is there.

And it shouldn't.

I'm sorry that happened to you.

That shouldn't happen to anybody, ever.

And we do need to do better as a as a system, as people.

I think health care is in a is an interesting predicament.

It's a business.

It's an anchor institution.

It's a nonprofit.

And so those don't always align all the time.

But the one thing I think we can all agree on is people matter.

And no matter what you look like, no matter what purse you have, no matter how you're dressed, everyone should have the same access to care and the same, care.

Quality of care.

Yeah, I would agree with that.

The reality, though, is that we don't have the same access to care.

We have black women who are dying from childbirth at rates that they're seeing in third world countries, losing babies at those same rates.

We're seeing a resurgence of measles.

Who would have thought that there would be a resurgence of measles?

We know these things.

What do we do?

John?

What do we do about them?

Well, I think, you know, when you come to the measles issue, you're talking about a loss of trust in the system.

And again, it's hard to blame people for not trusting the system.

As I said, the whole thing seems to be circulating around money rather than around our humanity, about our mutual humanity.

Sure.

And focusing on the dollar bill.

So to me, I think that and even as was mentioned, there are wonderful not for profit organizations, but they still are having to behave like the for profit, so to speak, in order to be successful.

Yeah.

To me, the answer to that, especially for the larger institutions, is budgets.

They have to do them anyway and those look publicly to justify their budgets.

And if they're going to be in a process of spending a lot of money, those budgets ought to be overseen by, you know, a community blue ribbon community sort of group who says, yes, that's where we should be putting the money rather than into maternal care or rather than into making sure kids get their measles shot.

Right.

So we can all build these beautiful buildings and name them after rich people.

Right?

But the fact is, is that what we often need and said is better attention to our patients, better attention to the social determinants, and putting the money where it's going to make the biggest difference for our for others.

So that's my personal view.

I think it's probably most people I speak with are sympathetic to that.

But maybe the system is designed fundamentally incorrectly.

I would agree.

All right.

Maybe that's part of the issue.

And another part of the issue is that we really expect hospitals and health care system, the health care system, to address a lot of social issues that perhaps they aren't designed to do.

I mean, maybe let's explore that for a minute.

Maybe we're asking the system to do too much.

Is it their responsibility as a health care system to take care of folks who are homeless to address the homelessness issue?

Is it their responsibility to address, for instance, a growing rate of suicide among underserved people?

Are we really asking the system that is fundamentally badly designed?

Their focus is on money.

You've got to have money or you don't have the mission.

Okay.

But on the other hand, you have all of these people bringing all of these issues to that system.

Are we asking them to do too much?

Adrienne, what do you think?

Any of you?

I think I think we're not I think that.

First of all, let's be real.

The pharmaceutical companies rule the world.

And and that's where I feel like when you have a pharmaceutical company that owns a health care system system, it's hard to do that because they're driving to get us sick.

So then why would health systems, want to take care of that, those issues.

Right.

So I think we are asking them to help us with that because it's public health crisis.

But then when you look where the money is, it's in the medicines, it's in the insurance companies.

Right now we have an insurance company that owns a pharmacy.

Like what in the world where it's crazy to me that we aren't focusing on where the money is.

And you are, I'm always taught follow the money in business.

And guess what?

When we follow the money, we see why we're still sick.

Because not only does the pharmaceutical companies on the hospital systems, they also own the parts of the school systems as well.

So when you look at Pearson, who's owned by a pharmaceutical company, you all these things.

I listen, I'm a teacher, so I had to dig and find out this stuff.

Pearson is is an organization that actually is invested by pharmaceutical companies.

They are teaching our kids not only just in colleges.

They own systems.

In high schools, they own power school.

Which power school is the data systems that hold our information in the school system?

So so do you think the do you do you think that there is a legitimate focus on getting people well in the system?

I don't I don't feel you don't think that.

Adrian, what do you think?

I disagree to a to an extent.

I think it depends on the entity, if you will.

I think that, So to your to your point, I think that there's shared responsibility.

I think I always say like, we cannot be everything to everyone.

And I think that's, that goes across the board for everything.

I think health care systems absolutely do have a responsibility to the community to invest strategically, to show up, to create access, to create care, to invest back in their communities.

But I also think that it is a responsibility of education institutions, public health businesses as well.

We have to come together as a community.

It can't just be the health care system, but it also can't just be the community.

When you look at our frontline workers, who are probably the most overworked of anyone in health care systems.

They have a lot that fall onto them.

And so, I think it's going to take everybody in order for us to fix a very, very broken system.

We are asking people to navigate a very complicated and broken system.

And not and not and not fixing the system to be able to allow it to be navigated, if you will.

I mean, that's the disease, the complexity, both financial, administrative and on top of it.

You've got the whole issue of the actual caregiving.

That's right.

So the complexity is the disease of our system.

You know, we have the most we spend the most money on the administrative pieces of health care of any of the other rich nations.

And again, there's a famous quality guy named Deming who taught the Japanese how to make top quality cars.

And he said, every system is perfectly designed to give exactly the results that it gives.

Right?

And whatever we want to call our this health care system.

I hate calling you the system because I feel it fails on that, but it's perfectly designed to leave now, soon to be 30 to 40 million people uninsured.

It's perfectly designed to have the whole payment system upside down in terms of what you're paying the people who are the most important people like primary care, your your nurses.

It's upside down in terms of rewarding them.

It's upside down in terms of what it does to patients.

If you look at the insurance now, it's $27,000 a year for a family health insurance policy, and the CEO making 27 million gets the same policy that the person making 20,000, you know, working as a janitor in that company gets.

I mean, so that 27,000 could go to the janitor, it could go to the CEO.

But it's a huge amount of money relative to the to the wealth of that individual.

So the whole thing is just kind of upside down, backwards, inside out.

Way too complicated.

We need universal everybody and nobody out.

That makes fairness when everybody's in the same system.

It makes it simple.

And we have simplicity.

The doctors, the patients, the hospitals.

Everybody then understands what their role is because you simplified it and made it easy for everybody to understand.

And what that leads to is a whole bunch of, I'm going to say USA.

I hope that's universal, simple, the affordability it leads to access.

I those are really powerful points and they they get to I think what the core of the issue is.

Adrian has a great point in terms of it taking everybody, but but when you have so many different perspectives, when you have so many different goals, when you can't even get people within one system to be aligned on a goal and an outcome.

How do you bring all of these people together?

Is that more like, geez, I wish if I had, like if I could wish anything, that's what I would wish for kind of thing.

Or do you think it's actually possible?

I think we all probably wish that daily.

I do think it's possible.

I think to your point, there are always competing goals, but I think at the end of the day, we can always land on a common goal and a shared goal, and it's up to us to find what that is, to figure out how to move the needle.

What would you all say.

To Doctor Ross.

Doctor Ross point.

Earlier he mentioned that there are going to be this huge number of people that are uninsured.

I suspect if you look at the group of people who are uninsured, you would find some pretty significant and obvious commonalities in that group.

What would you say if someone said, you know.

Do you think this exclusion from our system is intentional?

Intentional or not intentional?

It's the hard, cold fact that.

So when you look at it and you see it, you can't just shut your eyes to it.

You have to start asking the why questions.

Right?

And so, yeah, I think the system health care, you know, is a discriminatory system at this particular place, particularly around the money.

Again, you know, but, you know, how do you how do you cure that?

Well, that's what we need to demand, right?

There's Frederick Douglass in the fight against slavery.

Said there is no change without a demand.

Right.

And you cannot expect change without a struggle.

That's like asking for crops to grow without the thunder and lightning that brings the rain.

Right?

So to me, you know, we're going to have to fight for it.

We're going to have to demand it of our leaders.

Right now, the problem for people that are sick, they can't get in the street.

There you go.

And that's why caregivers, in my view, and and others that are affiliated with the caring system, we have to stand in for them, just like we stand in for them when we're trying to protect them as patients.

So to me, I've spent probably what is it coming on almost 40 years now working to develop a group of people called physicians for a National Health Program.

And now we brought on medical students, and we have the largest nurses union in the country, the National Nurses United, who are in favor of a unified, simple system that will bring us affordability and access for everybody.

USA.

And I don't know what's wrong with with those principles.

You know, to me, we should be focusing on that.

Now, I think another interesting point.

I want to make this before I forget it again, because it came to my mind while others were speaking.

There should be no wrong door.

I mean, the system should have no wrong door.

Your operation, Donny, is the closest thing.

And I worked in one.

As you know, of a no wrong door place.

You come in the door, you know the social services are there, dental is there.

You've got the you've got the physicians there.

You've got, you know, help to get people hooked up with social services and all of those things, all those helping services ought to be integrated into the health care system.

So there is no wrong door when you come in.

If you come in thinking what you need is a doctor, but what you really need is a safe home.

That's right.

You know.

Exactly right.

You know, get the lead out of the pain, out of your home.

You can go on and on on those things.

You're exactly right.

And but the system is not designed to respond to the.

Even when you're going to see your doctor, it's fairly segmented.

If you have an intestinal issue, you have to go see the gastro guy.

And if you have a heart issue, you got to go see the cardiologist.

Got that, got that.

But if you are someone who is not or who is in a system that's not welcoming, that's complicated.

Chances are you're going to fall out of that loop.

You had an extremely interesting and unfortunately common experience that I'd like for you to share.

I had a heart attack February 15th of 2025.

Were you then counsel for 46?

46?

46?

So?

So people who are I want you to hear that because it's not just.

It's just not people.

Doctor Ross is that he's it's much younger.

People have heart attacks as well.

So.

And I am covered by insurance.

I have great insurance through the city.

And so, I have been going I had about of Covid in September of 24 and it just wouldn't shake, the symptoms wouldn't shake, and I was tired and I couldn't really do as much as I would want to do.

So I went to my doctor and they referred me to a cardiologist, cardiologist, did the blood test, did everything, and scheduled me for a stress test.

Well, my great insurance that I had denied it.

And fast forward.

Went back to the doctor and I wasn't getting any better.

And so I went to my doctor, the cardiologist, my family doctor, the cardiologist.

And, you know, it just they rescheduled the stress test, submitted it to the insurance insurance company, denied it again.

Again.

And they said that I had no risk factors, but a cardiologist was sending me to get a stress test.

And so, February 14th was like any other day, and I went to sleep and woke up at 3:00 in the morning and I got dressed again.

I had severe chest pain, and I could have died right then, but because of prior experiences, I got dressed again.

I grabbed my coach bag, knew I was staying overnight.

I got dressed, comb my hair, and drove myself to the hospital in my Tahoe to make sure that they knew.

And I parked in front and said, hey, I'm having.

I think I'm having a heart attack.

I got dressed again.

I could have died.

It took me four hours to get dressed and leave the house because of the experiences that I experienced as a black woman.

I was treated well.

They treated me great.

I was taking care of, But when I say that, this these experiences that I've had to wear, my voice is not hurt.

I never once go into a hospital and say I'm Councilwoman Williams, but I did when I was having a heart attack.

You did?

I did when I was having that heart attack because of my experiences, with health care in the health care system, it has tainted how I feel about health systems.

I rarely like to go to them, but I go when I need to.

I don't fight it because I know as a black woman, I have to take care of my health.

And now I have a chronic disease that will be with me forever.

And I'm medically medicine dependent for the rest of my life.

So, the the problem I have is not unlike things that my mother has.

I have to go to the doctor with my mother.

As an elder black woman who doesn't have a high school diploma, she's looked at her.

They don't listen to her.

They don't listen to her.

They don't listen to us.

How do you think?

Adrian, let me ask you.

Vinnie has has has said some really powerful things.

How do you think the system has become so disengaged from patients?

If you would assume that it is disengaged from patients.

I, I don't, I don't know that I don't work on the front lines, so I can't even begin to guess if it is or not.

I would work, but you do work in a community.

I do work in community.

And so unfortunately, I hear stories like this often.

And, and I've heard this story a few times, and I get more mad every time I hear it, because nobody should should have to deal with something like this.

I, I don't know, I don't know because we're all people, to be completely honest.

And I don't know how someone can can not listen or hear a person.

It's it's a bias.

It's a either a bias that they have.

It's something that they're bringing into the situation.

It's not right.

I don't I don't know, I can't begin to.

It's pretty complicated.

It is.

It's very pretty.

And none of us, none of us want to leave this conversation with the impression that we don't need hospital systems for sure.

We all need hospital systems.

I hospital care.

I think what I hear everyone saying, though, is that we would really love systems to be more responsive, to be more inclusive, to be more available.

The sad part is with these stories that I'm telling you guys, I've talked I've told to CEOs of the health care systems here am I heard?

Yes, but that has to trickle down to the staff.

It has to trickle down to the insurance companies.

It has to trickle to everyone.

But how do you get the stories to stop when they keep happening?

And how do you get you being heard, not dependent on the fact that you are president of council?

Exactly.

And you have a coach person, a Tahoe, right?

Exactly.

How do I, as Vanness, who grew up in Moody Manor projects, who grew up, who raised a daughter, single daughter, who was the first person in my family and my nuclear family to have a master's degree.

How do I say I need help without saying I got this nice coach bag that cost $200.

My Tahoe is $85,000.

How do I do?

How do you do that?

I'm the president of city council.

How do you do that?

That should not matter.

I should walk in, beat down, discuss it like I'm having a heart attack and about to die because I could have died.

You could have died.

I want to back up in your story, though, because you mentioned the fact that that the cardiologist saw you and wanted to do a stress test.

Who said, no, not the cardiologist, not your primary care doctor, not your right.

Somebody who never looked you in the eyes.

That's right.

And so so somebody somewhere, you know, made this decision because they thought, oh, you know, you don't fit the demographic.

That's exactly right.

So to me, the you know, we don't have to do that.

No other rich country does that right.

Has this whole idea.

And they be they may be following the data on a given doctor.

And if they're doing let's pick a cardiologist.

They're doing every cardiologist test known to man on every single patient who walks in the office.

Well, then you go have a conversation and try to figure out why are you behaving differently than all the other cardiologists, you know, in our region or in our state or in our country, right?

So that's what you do.

You don't tell them no when you've made your best judgment without some justification.

But the data, I mean, just think about this crazy complexity.

All right.

We've got a thousand hospitals.

We've got hundreds of thousands of doctors.

We've got at least hundreds of different insurance companies, all with contracts with everybody else, including the 350 million of us.

Right?

That's right.

In the country.

That's a complex city is a killer.

Killer having the intimacy that's necessary, the healing relationship.

So let me ask you if you one word, what would you say should happen in one word?

If you could have major change based on your perspective, what would you say should change equity.

Equity?

Yeah.

Well, I would say what I said before USA universal.

Simple enough.

That's what we need.

I think we just need to break it and fix it.

It just seems we need to break it and rebuild it because it's all wrong.

It's all So let's discuss the word equity.

That's the word, Councilwoman, that you wished the system would focus on.

Huge word.

Huge impact.

Complicated.

Make it make sense.

So for me, it's no matter if you're 15 or 50, you're black, white, Chinese.

You're treated the same based off your needs.

Not equally, but whatever you need and where you are.

A five year old.

Sometimes they can't read.

So read it for you.

A 50 year old, maybe.

Don't.

Maybe not have their bifocals.

Read it for them.

It's just making sure that your understanding that everybody is not like you.

And I think that's what equity means.

And in a health care setting is whether I can afford to get my medicine or not, I still should be treated with the gentleness of someone who had a fever.

The gentleness, I love that.

And that's that's it.

Just a gentleness.

First of all, people forget why we were put on this earth, and that is to serve others.

That's what society.

That's what we were built off of.

Serving others.

And people forget so quick.

We have a system that has and I need to say this again a zillion wonderful things for sure, silly and wonderful things.

But being okay is not good enough, especially when you're managing the lives of others.

You have to be searching for great.

You have to be searching for great in this system.

We have the best doctors, the best nurses.

There you go.

The best hospitals, the best equipment, the best medications, and the worst possible system for getting everybody the care that they need.

So it's all buried in the system.

This isn't about being not caring about each other.

That's not it.

People don't go into health care and not care about other people.

They just don't.

So to me, what it is, is you've got this sort of broken system or non system that can be fixed, it can be reoriented.

But you've got to reorient the money.

That's the plain fact.

And that means that the public in my opinion needs to control that money.

There needs to be some sort of public oversight on what's going on.

The market has failed us.

Anybody who says that the marketplace is going to fix this has not looked at what happened the last 50 years, right.

We've got more people, as many or more people uninsured, despite efforts to correct that our outcomes are worse than all the other countries that spend half as much as we do.

There's something wrong with the way we're going about it, right?

So we've got everything we need to have the best health care system in the world, except a system that focuses on equity, on inclusion.

That's why I say those words on fairness, right?

Because I think this country was built on those things.

Right.

And to and to say we can't say those things.

I'm sorry.

I'm going to say them.

But but one of the reasons I would posture that, the outcomes are so poor, so consistently poor, is that we have a system that is not welcoming to the people who are the sickest in the community.

Right.

So, this is you know, I'm going to ask Benita to tell us another story.

She has she has a lot of them.

You went to the doctor with your with your baby girl.

She couldn't speak.

At one years old.

This is my great niece who I have custody of one years old.

She couldn't speak, and I told the doctor and I said, hey, she's not talking.

I'm an educator.

I know the milestones they're supposed to hit.

Just as well, you know, as I'm supposed to know.

And so, and said, well, she, she some kids are delayed.

I was like, well, figure out why.

And this baby.

A hearing loss.

But I had to keep pushing and saying no, this is not right.

She's not making any noises.

She's not talking.

She's not saying anything.

Something is wrong.

Things wrong Test the baby.

Right, right.

Test the baby.

The check her hearing.

She had a really bad ear infection when she was a little infant.

Which her she had hearing loss.

And she talks more than anybody.

But I had to advocate for her.

What if I didn't?

And sick people have difficulty advocating always.

Yeah.

I mean, it's a we talk about we've talked about it's a complicated system and people are afraid of what they don't understand and what they can articulate.

And so we wonder why people don't go to the doctor and why they're afraid to.

They don't understand.

I'm not the doctor.

I shouldn't be telling you to do these tests.

I'm coming to you with the problem.

And so I think, yeah, to, you know, everybody's point up there.

I think people are afraid of what they don't understand.

If it's not a welcoming environment, it's hard to want to go back there and to build trust.

And so I think it is part of the health care is responsibility to build trust in community as well.

But I had to actually say what I did for a living, what education level I was to say, I know this is not right again.

Again, you walk in spaces and you have to.

I shouldn't have to say I have a master's in education.

I was a cheap.

I ran a high school for ten years.

That is stuff.

You shouldn't have to go in a doctor's office and have.

I shouldn't have to have my resume every time I go into office, but I didn't.

And again and again, we have a system doctor that does not make it easy for the sickest and the most vulnerable among us to be served.

There is.

This is a story I thought you were going to tell.

And.

And I seen this.

Yes.

You do.

And I've seen this happen more than once when single moms don't have daycare and they have to they have to bring their kids with them to a doctor's appointment.

And the doctors, knowing that these are their patients, don't have accommodations for the child, right.

For the mammogram.

They had to go.

And then and then those people have to reschedule.

People who are taking the bus, who are putting kids with strollers on the bus to get to the doctor's appointment.

I've seen appointments canceled because the bus was late.

The staff was tokens to get people home because maybe they could get uncle Ray to drive them to the doctor, but he wasn't work until 9:00 at night and he had to get him home.

You know, so the system is not designed in any way, shape or form to make it easy for people to access it and for that access to feel comfortable and fair and for them to feel ownership of it.

Now, community health centers, half the board has to be patients at the community health centers.

That's right.

That's a very different concept, isn't it?

Right.

You want to get fairness?

Well, let the people be part of what's helping to fix the system.

And I don't care if they're educated or not educated, they're experiencing it.

Listen to their experiences.

Absolutely.

The voices on the street know more about what people need than people sitting in offices in corporations.

Yeah.

You're correct.

Well, this can be fixed.

So I had to go get a mammogram, but I had to take the baby because I had to go before school, and they canceled my appointment because the baby couldn't be there.

And they don't have a combination right now.

Me and Miss Donny talked about it.

I could go and drive and reschedule.

What if I had three of us?

This is something that can be fixed.

But a mammogram that saves lives.

Yeah.

Crazy.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, I don't disagree with you.

The system is not welcoming in so many ways.

I mean, people say that we need copayments to slow people down.

I almost feel like there are people we ought to pay to get there, you know, rather than the other way around.

I mean, the punishment is sitting in the doctor's office with with two kids waiting to see the doctor for yourself and wondering how those kids are going to behave when I have to get in there with the doctor.

I mean, that's enough payment for anybody.

So I don't mean to make this a circular discussion by any means, but but, and I have worked in this system for a very, very long time.

I am not hopeful that it can be fixed.

That is because, again, I think it is fundamentally flawed.

And I think there's not the will or the desire to fix it because the money is in the wrong place.

John.

The money is in the front of the bus and that's what's driving it.

And when we talk about fixing it, we are really talking about changing that whole dynamic.

We are talking about a system that is only if you ask any physician why they're doctors.

They will say the same thing.

I want to help people.

I want to help people.

But when they are providing care, they are also being bombarded with.

You have to see so many patients an hour.

You have to do things that you don't want to do.

So maybe the doctor, maybe the mammogram lady wanted to see you, but you had a baby with you.

And the rule is you have to get that appointment canceled.

I think that it's going to take a revolution and frankly, locally and nationally.

John, you are a leader in that revolution.

So here's my belief.

I think there are good incremental things.

We will do that.

And I think I say will do because I think it's going to happen.

You know, they say if it can't go on, it won't this can't go on.

I mean, people, it's it's the number one thing that is in people's mind economically right now is how the health care system is unaffordable and an accessible to so many people.

That's number one.

And again, so people will vote their conviction.

Maybe we'll get people who want to do something about it.

I think that's number one.

Number two, I believe that, as King said, the arc of justice, you know, is there.

You know it.

The arc history is long, but it bends toward justice.

And I think we're bending toward justice.

I think this country is potentially going to turn itself around.

Think about what it really wants to be like, and this next election will be key in that.

It will be key in that.

Do we care enough about each other to care for each other?

And I think that that that's that's a key question.

Everybody should go vote with that in their heart and every, every ethical background you talk about about a muslim, Christian, Jew, American Indians.

Jane, I don't care who it is they have treat others as you would want to be treated yourself as the fundamental principle.

Confucius was asked.

He said, well, do it in one word.

You asked us for one word.

I thought this was amazing.

He he said it was reciprocity.

Reciprocity.

Treat the other person as you want to be treated yourself.

Absolutely.

And right now, are we treating each other in this country the way we'd want to be treated ourselves?

Are we treating even our visitors to this country that way?

Right.

To me, that's not who we are.

I don't believe that's who we are.

I've been across this country.

I've talked to Americans all over the country.

People come from all over the country to come together.

The Public Health Association meetings at my health reform meetings.

That's not who we are.

I don't believe that.

And I'm not going to let them convince me that that they're that we should be cruel, evil in the way we're behaving toward other human beings.

That's not who we are.

So and I'm going to say that, and I'm hoping others will stand up and say it, too.

Yes.

And again, for those of you who are who are watching, none of us are saying that there are that are hospital.

Our health care system is a terrible place to be.

But we could do better.

We could absolutely do better.

A lot better, a lot better.

Got a couple minutes left.

Denise.

Final thoughts?

Same thing.

I like reciprocity.

That's just.

That's the best.

And equity and reciprocity.

And we have we do have a great we have some great health systems here.

But we could do better.

We could do better.

Absolutely.

We could do better.

Final thoughts.

Yeah, I just I echo Venice, I, we have great health systems.

I work for one of them.

I, you know, amazing.

But there's always room for growth and there's always room for improvement and to do better.

And you know, people are hurting right now.

And community health is important.

And it's going to take all of us to really rally together and, and fix this very broken system that we have fixed.

Absolutely.

John, before I before I ask you for your final thoughts, I really want to leave people with the idea, the importance of the idea that our health is our responsibility so we can talk about the system being broken all day.

We can talk about how we don't have access, but at the end of the day, we have to learn to advocate for ourselves.

There's just no other way.

There's just no other way.

John.

Yeah.

Well, again, I'm going to go back to the last ethical point because you got about 30s John, Jesus and the money changers.

Okay.

When did Jesus ever get angry in the Bible?

One time that I remember, maybe there was a fig tree or something.

Once upon time.

But at one time he saw people betraying the ethic in the temple, and he tied a rope into a into knots and drove the money changers out of the temple.

What did he do next?

Most people don't talk about that.

They think it was about the temple.

He went out to the poor and began healing the sick.

That's the very next passage, right?

We have money changers in the Temple of Medicine right now.

Wow, that's pretty powerful.

Somebody better make that cord somebody.

Right.

And it's going to take everybody to demand it.

Thank you guys.

So much.

More than medicine building Community Health podcast series is on now.

We really, really hope that you will reach out.

Let me know what you think about this discussion.

Join the discussion.

There's absolutely room for your voice in this conversation.

Take care.

Take care of More than medicine.

Building.

Community health is made possible by the support of the Neighborhood Health Association and viewers like you.

Thank you.