IN A MOMENT, WE WILL LOOK AT THE CRACKDOWN ON WOMEN'S RIGHTS IN AFGHANISTAN, BUT FIRST, TO UGANDA, WHERE PARLIAMENT HAS APPLAUDED THE PASSAGE OF A BILL MAKING IT ILLEGAL TO IDENTIFY AS LGBTQ, IN THE UNITED STATES, WHERE THE GEORGIA LEGISLATURE HAS PASSED THE LATEST IN A STRING OF ANTI-TRANS BILLS.

OUR NEXT GUEST SAYS IT IS NO COINCIDENCE.

EMARRA JONES JOINS MICHELLE MARTIN TO BREAK DOWN WHAT'S BEHIND THE ONSLAUGHT OF THE ANTI LGBT Q LAWS ACROSS AMERICA AND THE WORLD.

>> THANKS, CHRISTIANE.

THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

>> THE SPECIFIC THING WE WANTED TO START WITH TODAY IS THAT IN 2023 ALONE, THIS IS ACCORDING TO THE ACLU, MORE THAN 426 BILLS THAT HAVE BEEN IDENTIFIED OR DESCRIBED AS ANTI-LGBTQ LAWS HAVE BEEN INTRODUCED IN STATE LEGISLATURES ACROSS THE U.S. AND THIS IS A MARKED CONTRAST FROM A FEW YEARS AGO WHEN THIS WAS NOT A SMALL NUMBER, BUT IF 2019, THERE WERE SOME 60-SOME BILLS, OF COURSE ALSO ACCORDING TO THE ACLU.

SO FIRST OF ALL, I WANTED TO ASK YOU, WHAT ARE THE SCOPE OF THESE BILLS?

WHAT ARE SOME OF THE THINGS THAT THESE BILLS WOULD DO?

>> IN TRUTH, THE SCOPE OF THESE BILLS, I THINK WHAT WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND IS THAT THE SCOPE IS INCREASING AND BECOMING EVER MORE AGGRESSIVE.

SO WE STARTED OUT ESSENTIALLY IN THE TIME PERIOD THAT YOU LAID OUT WITH THE ANTI-TRANS SPORTS BILLS AND THE ANTI-TRANS BILLS THAT WOULD BLOCK PEOPLE ACCESS TO MEDICAL CARE FOR TRANS YOUTH, WHAT PEOPLE CALLED GENDER-AFFIRMING CARE.

THAT KIND OF WHERE THE UNIVERSE OF THINGS STARTED.

AND WHAT WE'VE WITNESSED OVER THE PAST YEAR IS A FAR MORE AGGRESSIVE AND WIDENING REACHING RANGE OF BILLS.

THAT INCLUDES MANDATING THE USE OF CERTAIN PRONOUNS THAT ARE ON YOUR BIRTH CERTIFICATE.

THAT WOULD BAN DRAG PERFORMANCES.

AND IN SOME CASES WOULD MAKE IT ILLEGAL FOR TRANS PEOPLE TO WALK DOWN THE STREET IF THE CLOTHING OF THEIR GENDER IDENTITY BY EXTENSION AND INCREASINGLY, A BAN ON THE MEDICAL CARE FOR ALL TRANS PEOPLE, INCLUDING ADULTS.

AND NOW THE MOST RECENTLY IN FLORIDA, A BILL THAT WOULD LEGALIZE FAMILY SEPARATION IN THE CASES OF PARENTS WHO ACCEPT THEIR TRANS CHILDREN.

WHAT WE'VE SEEN IS A DRAMATIC INCREASE IN THE AGGRESSIVENESS AND RANGE OF THESE BILLS.

>> HOW DO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS IN THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THAT PEOPLE OFTEN INTRODUCE, YOU KNOW, ATTENTION-GETTING BILLS INTO STATE LEGISLATURES, AND THE VAST MAJORITY OF THEM NEVER SEE THE LIGHT OF DAY, YOU KNOW.

PEOPLE WANT THE HEADLINES, BUT THEY DON'T NECESSARILY FIGHT FOR THE RESULTS.

BUT GIVEN THE, THAT THE SORT OF DRAMATIC INCREASE IN THE NUMBER OF BILLS, THE TYPES OF BILLS, THE KINDS OF THINGS THAT THEY ADDRESS, HOW TO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS?

HOW DO YOU SEE THIS MOVEMENT?

>> WELL, I THINK THE THING TO UNDERSTAND ABOUT THIS CONVERSATION IS THAT WE DIDN'T GET HERE BY ACCIDENT.

THE FACT IS THAT TRANS PEOPLE ARE ONLY 1.5% OF THE POPULATION.

A TINY GROUP OF PEOPLE.

BUT HAVE FOUND OUR WAY INTO THE CENTER OF THE DEBATE IN AMERICAN POLITICAL LIGHT IN THIS MOMENT.

AND THAT'S BECAUSE OF A ROUGHLY DECADES-LONG PLAN EXECUTED BY THE FAR RIGHT AND CHRISTIAN NATIONALS MOVEMENT TO BRING US TO THIS POINT OF THE CONVERSATION.

YOU DON'T GO FROM A HANDFUL OF BILLS IN 2019 TO HUNDREDS OF BILLS IN TWO YEARS WITHOUT THERE BEING A PRETTY WIDE-RANGING INFRASTRUCTURE THAT INCLUDES NON-PROFIT ORGANIZATIONS, THINK TANKS, POLITICAL GROUPS, RELIGIOUS ORGANIZATIONS, BILLIONAIRES FUNDING IT AND A RELIGIOUS IDEOLOGY MOTIVATING IT.

SO I THINK WHAT WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND IS THAT WE'VE GOTTEN HERE NOT BY ACCIDENT BUT BY DESIGN.

>> AND HERE YOU'RE DRAWING A LOT OF THE WORK THAT YOU'VE BEEN DOING OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS AS THE CREATOR OF TRANS SLASH MEDIA, WHICH IS A NON-PROFIT NEWS ORGANIZATION, AS YOU PUT IT ON YOUR WEBSITE, IT PRODUCE CONTENT TO SHIFT THE HOSTILITY TOWARD TRANS PEOPLE IN THE U.S. TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT HOW YOU STARTED REPORTING ON WHAT YOU SHE IN THIS MOVEMENT AND WHAT ARE SORT OF THE PILLARS OF IT?

>> WHAT I SAW IN 2020, THE BILLS IN ALABAMA, THE FIRST ONE I NOTICED WAS IN IDAHO.

MY EARS PIQUED UP.

WHEN YOU SEE THE SAME TYPE OF THING APPEAR IN A TOTALLY DIFFERENT PART OF THE COUNTRY WITH A TOTALLY DIFFERENT SET OF ACTORS, THAT MAY POINT TO THE FACT THAT THAT'S NOT JUST A COINCIDENCE, RIGHT?

AS THE LINES OF THE MATRIX GOES, I BELIEVE IN COINCIDENCE.

I JUST DON'T TRUST COINCIDENCE.

AND SO I PUT TOGETHER A TEAM OF INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALISTS, AND WE GIST JUST STARTED DIGGING AND ASKING THE QUESTIONS ABOUT WHO ARE THE PEOPLE BEHIND THESE AND WHERE ARE THEY?

AND NOT ONLY DID WE COME UP WITH LINK, SIMILARITIES, BUT THEN WE BASICALLY UNCOVERED WHAT WE CAN ONLY DESCRIBE AS THE ANTI-TRANS MACHINE, THAT'S WHY WE LABELED THE INVESTIGATIVE SERIES THAT, BECAUSE THERE IS AN INTERLOCKING GROUP OF ORGANIZATIONS AND SYSTEMS THAT ARE DRIVING.

THEY'RE IN CONVERSATION WITH EACH OTHER, COORDINATION WITH EACH OTHER, TESTING THESE BILLS.

PARTS OF THEIR UNIVERSE HAVE FOCUS GROUP ISSUES.

ONE OF THE WAYS THEY'VE LANDED ON TRANS YOOUS ISUTH IS BECAUSEE FOCUS GROUPS IN 2018.

WHAT WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND AGAIN IS THE VASTNESS OF THE INTENT HERE TO DRIVE THE CONVERSATION ABOUT TRANS PEOPLE ALONG SPECIFIC PARAMETERS INTO PUBLIC LIFE.

THERE'S NOTHING, THERE'S NOTHING ORGANIC ABOUT THIS CONVERSATION.

>> YOU ALSO HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN LAWS TARGETING TRANS PEOPLE AT THE MEDICAL CARE THAT THEY CAN RECEIVE, THE INSTITUTIONS OR, YOU KNOW, PLACES, PUBLIC PLACES THAT THEY CAN USE OR BE SEEN.

YOU ALSO DRAW A CONNECTION TO ANTI-ABORTION LAWS OR LAWS THAT WOULD RESTRICT ABORTION RIGHTS THAT ARE ALSO VERY MUCH A PART OF THE POLITICAL MOMENT.

WHAT'S THE RELATION THAT YOU SEE THERE?

>> IT'S THE SAME GROUPS.

IT'S THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION, FAMILY RESEARCH COUNCIL AND FOCUS ON THE FAMILY.

THE RIGHT WING MOVEMENT HAS DECIDED TO PUT A LOT OF THEIR WEIGHT A BEHIND THESE ISSUE.

AND FOR THEM, CONTROL OVER BODIES, PEOPLE'S ABILITY TO CONTROL THEIR BODIES IS REALLY ABOUT CONTROL OVER SOCIETY.

AND IT IS BECAUSE, AND, YOU KNOW, WE'RE REALLY UNCOMFORTABLE TALKING ABOUT THIS IN MAINSTREAM MEDIA OR IN JOURNALISM, IT'S MOTIVATED BY VERY SPECIFIC RELIGIOUS IDEOLOGY, AND RELIGIOUS EXTENSIONALISM THAT THEY BELIEVE HAS TO DOMINATE PUBLIC LIFE IN AMERICA.

AND A PART OF THAT IS THE EXCLUSION OF ANYTHING THAT IS NOT BIBLICALLY SANCTIONED, ANYTHING OUTSIDE OF THE GENDER BINARY AND PATRIARCHY WHICH FOR THEM IS DEFINED BY GOD IS ACTUALLY A DEEP PROBLEM FOR THE AMERICAN BODY POLITIC THAT THEY WANT TO RECTIFY.

AND SO IT'S THE EXACT SAME GROUPS THAT ARE DRIVING AND HAVE BEEN DRIVING THE ANTI-ABORTION MOVEMENT THAT ARE DRIVING THE ANTI-TRANS MOVEMENT, AND THAT IS BECAUSE THAT UNLIKE PROGRESSIVES OR SO-CALLED PROGRESSIVES OR EVEN LIBERALS WHO SEE THESE ISSUES AS SEPARATE, THEY VERY MUCH UNDERSTAND THE WAY THAT THEY LINK AROUND THE ISSUE OF BODILY AUTONOMY, AND IT'S WHY THEY ARE PUSHING SO HARD ON THEM, AND IT'S ONE OF THE REASONS WHY WE'RE SEEING THE MIGRATION OF ANTI-ABORTION TACTICS INTO ANTI-TRANS TACTICS SUCH AS TARGETING DOCTORS, BEING OUTSIDE OF GENDER-AFFIRMING CLINIC, SHOUTING AT PEOPLE AS THEY GO IN.

ALL OF THOSE THINGS STARTED TO MIGRATE FROM THE ANTI-ABORTION INTO THE ANTI-TRANS MOVEMENT BECAUSE OF THESE LINKS.

>> THE OTHER INTERESTING THING WHICH YOU'VE POINTED OUT WHICH I'M NOT SURE OTHER JOURNALISTS HAVE KIND OF MADE THIS CONNECTION, SOME HAVE, IS THAT THERE REALLY IS ALONG THE RISE OF THIS MOVEMENT AGAINST ABORTION RIGHTS HAS ALSO BEEN THE RISE OF AUTOCRATIC MOVEMENTS AROUND THE WORLD.

AND MANY OF THEM ARE DEEPLY CONCERNED WITH GENDER NORMS, WITH ACCESS TO ABORTION.

FOR EXAMPLE, LIKE IN POLAND FOR EXAMPLE, THE PUSH TO SORT OF MORE AUTOCRATIC MEANS OF GOVERNMENT HAS ALSO COINCIDED WITH THE PUSH TOWARD REDISTRESTRICTING ABORTION.

WE'VE SEEN THIS IN LOTS OF PLACES AROUND THE WORLD.

WHAT IS YOUR THEORY OF THE CASE HERE?

WHY DOES THEIR SEEMIS SEEM TO B CONCERN OF AUTOCRATS?

>> HAD A LOT OF CONCERN ABOUT THIS AND -- >> A WRITER AND FREQUENT GUEST ON THIS SHOW, AND ACUTE CHRONICLER OF RUSSIAN POLITICS, YOU WERE SAYING?

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

YOU CAN ALMOST LOOK AT THE RISE OF AUTHORITARIANISM WITHIN PUTIN'S REGIME, SPECIFICALLY AS YOU MOVE INTO THE SECOND INTO THE THIRD TERM, WITH THIS INCREASING AGGRESSIVE FOCUS ON GENDER AND GENDER IDENTITY.

AGAIN, LINKING THESE TWO ISSUES.

AND I THINK THAT THERE ARE A COUPLE OF THINS HGS HERE.

I THINK ONE IS EMPHASIZING THE MASCULINITY OF THE STATE, THE POWER OF THE STATE.

THE SECOND THING IT DOES IS ALLOWS AUTHORITARIANS TO ACTUALLY BEGIN TO ROAD TEST HOW FAR THEY CAN GO IN THEIR PUSH FOR AUTHORITARIANISM.

WHAT LAWS ARE THEY GOING TO BE ABLE TO DO?

WHAT EXECUTIVE ACTIONS?

HOW AGGRESSIVE CAN THE POLICE BE AND THE JUDICIARY.

IT ALLOWS THEM TO EXPERIMENT WITH THE COCKTAIL THAT THEY'LL USE WITHIN THEIR AUTHORITARIAN REGIME.

THE THIRD THING THAT IT DOES IS IT CREATES, THEN, ALSO AMONGST PEOPLE A LEGITIMACY FOR STATE ACTION THAT IS MUSCULAR AND PUNITIVE.

WHAT I DO MEAN BY THAT?

BY TURNING ON A GROUP OF PEOPLE THAT CAN YOU EASILY STIGMATIZE, ISOLATE AND DEMONIZE, YOU CREATE A RATIONALE FOR WHY THIS MUSCULAR STATE IS NECESSARY.

RIGHT?

BECAUSE YOU NEED TO BE PROTECTED INTEREST THE FROM THESE PEOPLE THAT YOU FEAR AND ARE A THREAT TO EVERYTHING THAT YOU HOLD DEAR.

I THINK THOSE ARE SOME OF THE ESSENTIAL INGREDIENTS AS TO WHY WE CAN CHART THE RISE OF AUTHORITARIANISM WITH A FOCUS ON GENDER AND GENDER IDENTITY.

AND IT'S ONE OF THE REASONS WHY ALARM BELLS, I THINK, ARE SCREAMING HERE IN AMAMERICA JUS.

>> THERE ARE TRANS WOMEN LIKE LAVERNE COX AND MICHELA RODRIGUEZ AND JANET MOCK WHO HAVE BECOME HUGE STARS ON WELL-RECEIVED, CRITICALLY ACCLAIMED, YOU KNOW, PROGRAMS, AND DIRECTING, PRODUCING, ACTING, YOU KNOW, WINNING A LOT OF ACCOLADES FOR THEIR WORK.

AND I'M JUST WONDERING, HOW DO YOU KIND OF RECONCILE OR HOW DO YOU SEE THIS?

ON THE ONE HAND YOU SIGH THE R SEE THE RISE IN POP CULTURE, THE APPRECIATION AND THEN THE COUNTER MOVEMENT IN THE POLITICAL WORLD.

>> YEAH.

ONE OF THE REASONS FOR THE GENDER BATHROOM BACKLASH.

IT WAS WRESTLING WITH THESE THINGS WE WERE SEEING PLAY OUT BEFORE US IN REAL TIME.

THE PHENOMENON THAT WE'VE BEEN WRESTLING WITH.

THE RISE OF THE FOCUS AND THE PUNITIVE NATURE OF GENDER IDENTITY IN THE COUNTRY AND WHAT YOU SAY, JUST THE TREMENDOUS POWER AND BRILLIANCE OF TRANS PEOPLE, BLACK TRANS WOMEN IN PARTICULAR, SHINING THROUGH.

AND SOME REALLY POWERFUL WAYS.

SO I THINK ONE NEEDS TO LIVE AND UNDERSTAND THAT CONTRADICTION AND TO UNDERSTAND THAT BOTH ARE TRUE AT THE SAME TIME.

AND I THINK THAT IT'S BECAUSE THERE'S ACTUALLY A REAL DEBATE.

THERE'S A REAL CONTEST BETWEEN THESE TWO VISIONS OF WHERE TRANS PEOPLE BELONG IN SOCIETY, AND WE ACTUALLY DON'T KNOW HOW THAT'S GOING TO PLAY OUT.

IT'S AN OPEN QUESTION, WHICH OF THESE TWO VISIONS IS GOING TO SUCCEED.

I THINK THE THIRD THING THAT I WOULD POINT TO, MICHELLE, WHAT CAN HAPPEN IN ENTERTAINMENT IS KIND OF A PREVIEW OF WHAT CAN HAPPEN IN THE RHYEST OF SOCIETY.

BUT IT'S NOT A FOREGONE CONCLUSION.

SO I THINK FOR INSTANCE ABOUT SIDNEY POITIER IN THE 1960s AT A TIME OF SEGREGATION.

EVEN BEFORE WE MADE A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF PROGRESS LATER IN THE '60s, RIGHT?

THE RISE OF HIS STARDOM.

THE RISE OF SO MANY OTHERS AT THAT TIME, LENA HORNE THAT PREVIEWED WHERE SOCIETY WAS GOING, BUT THERE WAS A LOT OF TURBULENCE THAT WAS TO FOLLOW, A LOT OF VIOLENCE THAT WAS TO FOLLOW.

AND A LOT OF THINGS WHERE THERE WAS THIS CONTINUED CONTENTION ABOUT THE ROLE OF BLACK PEOPLE IN THE COUNTRY THAT WE STILL HAVEN'T ANSWERED.

I PEOPLE IN BLACK PEOPLE STILL ARE ABLE TO DOMINATE IN SPORTS AND ENTERTAINMENT, BUT STILL THAT BREAK THROUGH ISN'T MIRRORED BY THE REST OF SOCIETY.

SO I THINK WE HAVE TO LEARN TO LIVE WITH THESE CONTRADICTIONS DURING THIS MOMENT.

>> COULD I ASK YOU A PERSONAL QUESTION?

>> PLEASE.

>> HOW, HAS THE WAY YOU'VE STARTED TO MOVE THROUGH THE WORLD CHANGED IN RECENT, I DON'T KNOW WHAT TIME FRAME YOU'D PICK.

JUST WHEN THERE'S THIS BROADER CONTEXT OF LEGAL HOSTILITY, AT LEAST SORT OF ATTEMPTS AT CREATING LEGAL FRAME WORKS THAT WOULD RESTRICT WHERE YOU CAN GO TO SCHOOL OR HOW YOU CAN MOVE THROUGH THE WORLD, HOW YOU CAN, WHAT YOU CAN DO, WHAT CAN YOU PLAY, YOU KNOW, WHAT SPORTS YOU CAN PLAY, HAS THAT CHANGED YOUR LIFE?

A WAY THAT YOU FEEL COMFORTABLE TALKING ABOUT?

>> YEAH, I MEAN, I WOULD SAY A COUPLE OF THINGS.

I THINK, YOU KNOW, ON THE ONE HAND, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I DO BECAUSE I TALK TO TRANS PEOPLE AND TRANS PARENTS ALL ACROSS THE COUNTRY IS THAT YOU KNOW, INCREASINGLY THERE ARE POLITICAL REFUGEES INSIDE THE UNITED STATES.

THAT IS TO SAY THAT THERE ARE FAMILIES AND INDIVIDUALS THAT ARE FLEEING STATES IN THIS COUNTRY BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE THAT THEY ARE GOING TO BE AND THEY HAVE STARTED TO BE PERSECUTED FOR BEING WHO THEY ARE OR BEING LOVING PARENTS.

AND THAT'S VERY REAL.

AND FOR ME, THE IMPACT PERSONALLY IS TWO FOLD.

ONE IS I THINK TWICE ABOUT WHAT STATE THAT I GO TO.

NOT BECAUSE I CAN GENERALLY NAVIGATE SOCIETY JUST FINE.

BUT IF SOMEONE RECOGNIZES ME FROM DOING THIS PROGRAM OR OTHER THINGS, AND, YOU KNOW, IMNAET BATHRI'M IN A BATHROOM IN A STATE THAT HAS LAWS, I DO THINK TWICE ABOUT WHERE I'M GOING TO GO AND HOW I'M GOING TO SPEND MY TIME IN THIS COUNTRY.

THE SECOND THING I WOULD SAY IS THAT IT IS NOT, I LIVE IN NEW YORK.

BUT AND PEOPLE WOULD GO, OH, WELL, IT'S FINE THERE.

BUT JUST THIS WEEKEND, OUTSIDE THE LGBTQ CENTER HERE THERE WAS A A PROUD BOYS PROTEST.

WE HAD INCREASING PROUD BOYCE ANDBUY BOYS AND OATH KEEPERS.

IT'S GIVING PEOPLE LICENSE TO TARGET US IN THESE NOR AGGRESSIVE AND VIOLENT WAYS, IT'S IMPACTED ME IN THE CITY WHERE I LIVE.

>> AND LET ME WHEEL IT AROUND NOW, AND PUT YOU ON THE SPOT.

IS THERE ANY PART OF YOU THAT FEELS SOME SYMPATHY FOR PEOPLE WHO JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND THIS IN AND FEEL THAT THIS IS CONTRARY TO THE WORLD AS THEY UNDERSTOOD IT?

YOU KNOW, THEY WERE TAUGHT A BINARY, THEY'RE MAN, THEY'RE A WOMAN.

THEY DON'T FLOKNOW ANY TRANS PEE TAN K AND IT KIND OF UPSET THEIRS CONCEPT OF THE WAY THE WORLD SHOULD BE AND THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO WITH THAT.

>> I THINK WHAT MAKES ME UPSET IS THE NATURAL CONFUSION OR UNDERSTANDING THAT PEOPLE HAVE IS BEING MANIPULATED.

I DON'T THINK THERE'S A TRANS PERSON IN EXISTENCE WHO MINDS A CONVERSATION ABOUT WELL, WHAT IS THIS, HOW DID YOU BECOME TO BE?

AND I DON'T UNDERSTAND.

SO I DON'T THINK THAT THAT'S, YOU KNOW, THAT THAT'S ISSUE.

I THINK THE PROBLEM IS THAT THAT NATURAL CURIOSITY AND MISUNDERSTANDING IS BEING WEAPONIZED BY THIS WIDER GROUP OF PEOPLE THAT I SPOKE ABOUT WHO HAVE MALINTIENT.

AND THAT'S WHAT'S SO DANGEROUS ABOUT THIS MOMENT AND THAT'S WHAT'S SO ENRAGING.

AND I THINK ONCE PEOPLE GET TO KNOW US THEY GENERALLY ACCEPT US.

I MEAN, THAT'S, THAT'S THE REALITY.

AND BECAUSE I KNOW THAT IN OUR STORY OF BECOMING OURSELVES IS SOMETHING THAT ALL HUMAN BEINGS RECOGNIZE, THIS DESIRE AND NEED TO FULFILL WHO WE ARE AND WHO WE HAVE ALWAYS KNOWN THAT WE ARE.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.