Music: Oh oh dig down it low.

Relax.

The river flows.

Takes you out to the sea.

Where the water will set you free.

Blood flows.

Head shakes, bones break.

The body aches rise up.

The roots from the ground bring life to an empty sound.

Oh, I know you can't hear me I'm calling.

Receive me.

Oh, never going back.

To go back to the start again I come alive, am I?

Come alive I come alive.

Yeah I come alive Yeah Eloy:I grew up in a in the dope game.

since I was 14 years old selling drugs, marijuana, cocaine, heroin, acid, everything.

That's how we were raised.

You know, it was expected that you're going to prison and eventually you're going to go to prison.

Jason: Raised to run the streets.

Eloy: I like smoking.

I like smoking a lot of weed.

But during the end, when I.

When I first caught my first federal cases, I was really, really heavy in the cocaine.

Real heavy.

And cocaine.

Willie: Got into the gangs.

Got into the drug dealing.

Took a persona who had a few nicknames on the street.

Came to the attention of the police.

Was incarcerated.

Think I got arrested first time 13 14.

I turned 18, and the Department of Youth Services.

Jason: How did guys like these stop the cycle?

Willie: Inside of prisons, you'll meet more repeat offenders and first time offenders.

Jason: and go from criminal to compassionate.

to compassionate.

Eloy: It's a good guy right here, man.

Willie: You're a good guy.

Eloy: one of the best right here.

Willie: That two of the best that ever.

Do it.

Lucas County leaders were challenged Pete: This challenge was really an opportunity for us to take a systematic look at how our system operates.

And it was very revealing.

We had a lot of work to do.

to safely lower the jail population Sean: Our jail had been overcrowded and had been under a federal court order for decades, Jason: and reduce racial disparities in the jail.

in the jail.

On the racial and ethnic disparity.

What did Lucas County get wrong?

We explore the ten year, $5 million MacArthur grant.

What went well, what went wrong, and where Lucas County leaders go from here.

Music:So I dig into my pocket, all my money spent so i get deeper but still coming up with lent So I start my mission, leave my residence thinking how could I get some dead presidents I need money.

I need money?

Eloy: Back.

And, you know, in the back in the day, you didn't have to hide anything.

You know, you just you were bland with it and you were out there with it and you show it off.

And I mean, whatever.

Nice cars, nice house, gold rings, diamonds, the whole nine.

When you raise in a certain life and a lifestyle, you're not knowing or seeing that it's wrong.

You know, especially seeing what those who look up to are those you love when you see them doing it.

So you partake to us, just as a normal thing is a normal, you know, so we don't look at and that's anything in life, you know, like CEOs, they got their kids and they follow their footsteps.

Electricians, roofers They follow their, you know, dad's footsteps.

And then I did the same.

And it was just a normal thing for me.

Grew up in it, raised in it, lived it and, and served a lot of time because of it.

A total of 23 years for Eloy Per for Eloy Perez.

Eloy: I was in, Pennsylvania, in McKean, Pennsylvania.

I was in Glenville, West Glenville, West Virginia.

I was in Elkton, Ohio.

I was in Terre Haute, Indiana.

Terre Haute.

I was in, sandstone, Minnesota.

And now 23 years of my life.

I was you know, I was hustlin in prison and, I mean, most of the time, most people are already there, connected.

And, you know, you meet people, you know, homies, whatever.

You figure it out, you know, you're going to figure out, everybody's going to figure out how to do it.

It's a it's a demand.

Until you get rid of that demand, you're not never going to stop it.

It's not never going to stop.

If you if if somebody is is life is as user is always is his mindset is continuously using he's going to figure out a way to continue using.

I didn't even know was going to be the last time, to be honest.

And not going to lie.

Like on my prior incarceration, in my prior times, being locked up, there wasn't even it wasn't even a thought to quit.

It was, this is you're going to go home and you're going to re-offend.

You're going to continue doing and living your life and having the best life.

And whenever you get caught, you know, you get caught and then you come back out and you do the same thing.

I mean, I had money in there and I had a good job.

You know, we worked in in this in the prison, the prison factory.

And I was making good money, but it's that that that other money, you know, as that's that's that's the notoriety to you of of who you are.

And you know, where you come from that you want to stay there.

Jason: But it was on a random night.

Eloy: I was in, Glenville, West Virginia, and that was, that was where I had my dream, Jason: a vision while behind bars.

Eloy: It was for me, an awakening, Jason: a dream of freedom.

A dream of freedom.

Eloy: I woke up and I'm like, take me back.

I don't want to get up because I knew that when I opened my eyes, I knew where I was at.

And when I did eventually open my eyes, it was a brick wall.

And from that moment on, I just said, you know what?

I'm done.

I'm tired.

I'm not.

I'm not coming back no more.

It's over.

This.

This is it.

I'm done.

And from that point on, like I realized that if I didn't change from that day forward, even though I still had time to serve, if I didn't change from that day forward, I was never going to change.

And it had to start from in there, and it had to start from in here.

And I think that's where it hit me is when it started from in here and in here.

Jason: Perez says some difficult realizations were delivered in that dream.

Eloy: hey had a huge impact on me.

The day that I woke up.

Because from that day forward, I realize I was selfish, like I was selfish.

I was given the yes, I they they were driving some of the baddest rides in the city.

There we had everything.

You know, like my mom, my kids, they had they had what a lot of kids don't have.

And I was jewelry, everything.

All my stuff that was theirs.

But I was buying them.

Jason: The father he was wasn't the father.

His kids really needed.

Eloy: I didnt know how to be a dad Jason: He felt like a bad son.

Eloy: I always feel guilty when my mom comes and sees me.

It's ten hours from here.

I would toddler like, no, mom, just.

It's too far.

Like, wait, I'll be home.

No, I need to see you.

No, I need to see you.

Jason: It was a visit from his grandkids and a question from his seven year old grandson that hit the hardest.

the hardest.

Are.

Eloy: Yeah, he.

The oldest one is one.

You know, he came and talked to me, and the other two were standing next to me.

And, you know, they wanted to know.

You know.

What?

Why?

I was in prison.

It came over my shoulder, said, tap me on the shoulder.

I've got something to ask you.

Pop them like, what's up?

Why are you here?

And I told them, you know, I did.

I did bad stuff.

You know, I sold drugs and I got locked up.

And that's why you guys are not going to do that.

I was selfish.

I didn't.

That's I there's no other way I can put it.

Jason: Perez says he had a newfound determination to live a different life.

Eloy: I gave it up.

I gave everything up.

You know, I had whatever I had on the compound, which is the prison, and anybody who owed me money.

I said, you guys, we're done.

You know, owe me nothing.

Keep it.

Don't ask me no more.

And everybody just couldn't understand.

Like what?

What took place.

And to some, I explain to someone that knew me real well.

I explained to them like, look, man, it's over.

Like I'm not.

I'm not coming back here no more like it's over.

And you know, a lot of them, Pat on the backs, you know what I mean?

But a lot of them like, oh, you're going to come back, you're going to do this, you're going to do that.

I said, no, I'm not, you know.

And I felt like a feather the day I did that.

Like I floated like I was so happy and relieved that I knew I wasn't going to live this life no more, that it was just I was free.

I was actually free.

And I still had 12.

I had seven, eight years still left of my time.

But I was never more freer in my life than that day right there when I let everything go and I let it all go.

I was never freer in my life, ever.

And it was.

It was.

Yeah, it was it was life changing.

It was life changing.

So I knew this for years.

I mean, I've known this for years.

And everybody who's in there can't say that they don't think about or nothing.

They all want to say, I'm going to go out and bawl till I fall.

I want to say the same things and, you know, and then but we all know what it leads to, you know?

And that was the thing.

Like, I was tired of what it was leading to.

And I didn't want to lead to that no more.

Jason: What he wasn't sure of What he wasn't sure of the next steps, the next steps Jason: opportunity is what a lot of people don't want to have coming out of prison.

I was focused on doing my time, finishing out the best way possible.

I had to learn how to budget the money that I was making, because now all of this other money is not there no more.

So I had the budget and I was finding myself.

I was trying to see what is Illinois.

When the Covid hit, I was in, an institution in Minnesota, and I was trying to figure out, okay, I got a couple years left.

What are you going to do?

Jason: It was during downtime, and there was so much of it during Covid that he kept hearing about a truck driver shortage.

NPR Radio Host: specifically, truck drivers and a shortage of drivers is one of the many reasons for the pileup at shipping ports.

A pile up that did not surprise Bruce Broussard one bit Eloy: So then they were talking about, you know, the trucking industry and how they were lacking drivers.

I researched it, ordered books on businesses.

That was it.

That was that was what I'm going to be.

That was going to be my career was going to be a truck driver.

Jason: He started asking around for help, and someone recommended he get it from an unlikely source.

Eloy: When when they told me about him and I said, Willie, I said, no, no.

Yeah, man.

He's mentoring.

He's doing this.

He's helping me.

I said, are you serious?

Yeah.

Announcer: Toledo gang leader, Willie Knighten.

Knighten was arrested late Wednesday during a raid by Toledo's gang task force, known on the street as Short Dog Knighton, as the alleged kingpin of a gang known as the Folks.

Jason: That Willie, unbeknownst to Perez, had a story of his own.

The day after this story aired, Nathan was released and back on the streets.

Willie: So all that went to my head.

All the power, all the pride.

Jason: But that freedom would end.

And says.

In 1996, he was sentenced to life in prison for a murder that he did not commit.

that he did not commit.

Willie: But now, when you're senteced to a life in prison, all that changes.

Especially when you're innocent.

That was a difference.

I'm innocent.

And now they just took my freedom.

So you expect to be, free the first day they arrest you?

When they question you all?

I realize they had the wrong person.

When I go to trial.

I realize they had the wrong person.

When you go to an appeal, the process.

Realize that the wrong person.

Some say they didn't know.

I still served 13 years of my life in prison.

I seen a lot of horrible things inside prison.

If you Google on National Geographic predators behind bars Lebanon, Ohio.

That's why they sent me to.

Jason: He says it was tough, even for the tough.

Willie: Roach infested, rat infested penitentiary that had one of the highest, Aids population HIV infections, most stabbings, one of the most stabbings.

You know, and this was, three years at the Lucas Ville riots in 1993 when he killed, over a dozen.

They sent a lot of I gonna miss down there where I was.

It a lot of those gang members ghosts.

Part of me came down there also.

And for the first couple years in prison, I still held on to my membership.

I held on to my rank.

Jason: Knighten as it was inside this violent place.

That one fight would forever change his outlook Willie: retaliation.

I'm a life like him.

So what he did was going to get him carried out to prison in a stretcher.

We were going to make the helicopter pull into the prison, make him on a stretcher.

Jason: That was the plan to kill a man who night and says sucker punched him, knocking night unconscious.

After an earlier fight between the two that officers broke up.

Knighten says he later woke up in the captain's office, where a correctional officer confirmed that he had witnessed the assault.

The other inmate was charged with assault, but that wasn't enough for Knighten Willie: So, orchestrated from the whole the, getting set over there where I was it.

Now, one thing you can't do in prison is get a guy moved to the block with you after five, unless you got money.

You got money.

Make anything happen.

So, he came into my block, but before he came into my block, when I got out of the hole, four guys were waiting in my cell that I was assigned to go to with knives.

And they say, give us the word.

We haven't killed.

And it was then in there that I just.

I couldn't do it.

So about the time that I had already paid to have he moved over there, I had to stand by my word.

So I met up with him.

I made him pay, you know, extorted him a little bit.

But after that I gave my word they'd be okay.

And, I denounce all my gang ties.

And I started becoming a mentor in prison.

Jason: Knighten decided to distance himself from that situation and begin a new life, all while facing a life sentence.

He started singing in the church choir, mentoring others and praying.

And one day he thought his prayers were about to be answered when he was summoned by a judge.

But Knighton was told to be patient instead.

Knighten: You know, I thought I was going home, but I didn't.

But he had told me that the wheels of justice turned slow.

But they are turning 12.5 years later.

I received a letter from the judge.

And he had stated that he had placed an innocent man in prison.

He said this case has weighed heavily on my heart for the last 12.5 years.

And, after I got that letter, I was just so happy.

And two months later, he died.

So everybody was telling me, oh, man, you were so close to being free.

And that judge and I.

But I told him, my faith is in God.

My faith is not in any man.

And two months after he died, Govenor Ted Strickland called down to the prison, said free inmate Knighten 351662.

Tomorrow morning.

And I went from serving life on Monday to sleeping on my parents floor on Tuesday night.

It was a miraculous miracle that I'll never forget and, so appreciative of it.

That's why I go so hard in my community to help and save others.

Jason: Caught up to speed on Newton's exoneration, Perez reached out for help, something he admits is hard to do.

Eloy: You know, and that it hurts a man's pride as a man.

You know you.

It's hard for, especially in our life.

We don't want to accept anything from anybody, you know?

I mean, we we're we're men.

We're supposed to get it on our own.

That's how we that's how I was raised.

But to be able to learn and break away from that, that was liberating to that was a that was like it was a whole new mindset that I had to learn was to be able to accept help, you know what I mean?

And I got Willie over here and they're like, go see where they go.

Go see him.

He's going to take care of you, is going to give you a grant.

They're doing grants for CDLs.

I said, all right.

And I gave him a call and we got to talk and and.

Knighten: I still had to fill him out like so.

But it was easy.

He did the.

Work.

Eloy: He said, you came highly recommended.

Willie: highly recommended Eloy: I can understand why he wanted to fill me out and see if, whether or not I was serious and what I want to do, but I was serious, like I was, I wasn't serious, I was determined that that's what I was going to do and that to me, for those guys that are in there to try to get out there is has to be an awareness and awareness that they can say, hey, okay, here's what we're going to do for you, like after, Jason: after after Eloy: release, right.

Even though there's opportunity and there's there's I, there's opportunity in prison.

What makes it hard is the opportunity coming out.

Pete: What we really want is behavior change.

So you don't repeat right?

People don't we don't want people going to jail.

So I think when you find that there are different methods to do behavior change.

Jason: That's Lucas County Commissioner Pete Gerken.

He, along with other county commissioners like retired Commissioner Carol Contrada, can try to applied for the $5 million safety and Justice grant from the MacArthur Foundation to rethink jails and justice in Lucas County.

Carol: In 2014.

And in 2015, when we began the Safety and Justice Challenge, we looked at a population that was had a lot of people there who were waiting for trial.

They may be waiting for days and days.

They might be charged with a minor misdemeanor, and they weren't being processed through the system and they were Act.

It was actually causing a, a less safe condition for the community.

So the individuals in the jail were not being correctly served by the, criminal justice system, nor was the population of Lucas County, because people were released on for reasons that maybe didn't make make sense.

So we needed to have the judges, the probation officers, the sheriff's deputies, the police, the community police really look at what they were arresting for.

And then once people were in the system, how we can have a fair and just adjudication while keeping the community safe.

To.

Contrato and others admit it was an announcement made by then Sheriff John Tharp that made him realize something must be done to stop the status quo.

Municipal Court Judge Tim Coleman spoke about it on episode two of the Rethinking Jails and Justice podcast.

Tim: So I was a Toledo full court judge, at that time.

our jail was consistently overcrowded.

what all of us have known since the jail opened in 1975.

This jail is overcrowded, and it's just not fair to the people who are housed there and the people who work there.

It's not safe and when he stood up in front of the jail and said that, we finally, after five decades, decided as a community, okay, we're going to do something about it.

John: The new facility that we're building, I think, was so necessary to had this facility built because the facility that, is that on still today is not a great facility for incarceration due to several reasons.

First of all, it's unsafe, in my opinion.

In my humble opinion, is that, there are so many blind spots and the jail on six stories high and there's it was basically built like a hotel.

Is that when you walk in, there's a large, lobby area and there's different wings that are blind, to the correctional officers.

So it's impossible to be able to, monitor the cameras, the way they needed to be monitored to see how, each and every wing is being, dealt with.

So with the new facility is that have direct supervision.

That means the officers will be right in the, facility, right in the open area with the inmates.

So it's so important to do that.

So the facility, we need to make sure that they're humane.

We have humane treatment for the inmates, safe treatment for the inmates, and also the employees.

So that's so important that we get this new, new facility built and making sure that it's built properly.

Jason: The purpose of the MacArthur grant was not to build a new jail, but to safely reduce the jail population and the racial and ethnic disparities within the jail.

But for the Rethinking Jails and Justice podcast, in interview after interview, people kept telling me that this jail would be a game changer and they hope it would be built soon.

But if you've been out here lately, you may have noticed there's not much going on.

Pete: We found out there was a disparate number of minorities in jail to the population ratio.

So we wanted to attack that and see what we could do about it.

So that was really the premise.

It got really interesting after that.

So our challenge was not only to get the data, but to find a common language between 20 judges in one county.

So try to get 20 judges to the table.

It seriously look at how they operate.

Was was a challenge.

But I'm proud to say in Lucas County our judges stood up to it.

Sean: They said, do you have any ideas how we can safely reduce the jail population?

And I said, I may, but I actually don't have a good feel for exactly who's in the jail and why they're there.

So I wanted to see if they had a printout that I could have so I can analyze it.

And sure enough, when I looked at the the people that were in the jail, I saw that there are certainly people that, I think, you would think may need to be in a jail pretrial when you're thinking about public safety.

But there was an awful lot of people that were in the jail that were there for relatively innocuous charges.

I mean, low level, nonviolent non victim cases, that were in the jail and as I looked at them, I had a feeling I could predict the likely outcomes on those cases if I know what's going to happen, you know, a month from now, perhaps we can get to that earlier resolution in three days or four days so that you're lowering the jail population because people's length of stay is reduced significantly.

But it's also going to be better outcomes for the individuals, because when people are in the jail and they stay there for any prolonged period of time, and frankly, there's a study that shows through the MacArthur Foundation or, sorry, the Arnold Foundation that talks about the hidden costs of, pretrial detention.

It shows that within 2 to 3 days, people's lives are going to start to destabilize, by being in the jail.

And it makes sense.

You're going to lose your job.

You're going to, you know, perhaps lose your housing.

Your kids may be taken from you and put into protective services.

I mean, it makes things much more difficult once you get out in the community, and unfortunately, often makes it more likely that you're going to return to the criminal justice system again and become involved again.

Jason: Can you talk about that a little bit?

The outcomes for the community, because the cynic might say, well, you know, they did the crime.

If they lose their job and their home, that's what they get.

That's a consequence to their actions.

Sean: Yeah.

And, that is, I think, a prevailing opinion sometimes.

Right.

Do the crime, do the time.

I would suggest that that is a little bit too shortsighted of a view, because what we really want is not to have people committing crimes or being involved, the criminal justice system, and absolutely don't want them returning to the system so that we have to figure out ways that we don't make people more likely to return.

So when you have people unnecessarily housed at the jail, when we had other alternatives, like a release to the community, perhaps on pretrial services, maybe with an ankle monitor, things like that, the likelihood of their lives destabilizing quickly is going to be lessened.

And if we don't do it, and again, things actually get worse for that individual, then the likelihood is they are going to become involved in the criminal justice system in the future again.

And that is where public safety is going to be affected.

Jason: McNulty says they analyzed every stage in the criminal justice system with a comprehensive system mapping exercise and from police interaction to reintegration.

Racial disparities were evident at each stage.

For instance, while the county's African-American population was about 19.5%, African American involvement in the justice system was disproportionately high, often between 56 and 60%.

Sean: We said we need to figure out why that is and are there ways we can impact that?

And so we've done it in a number of ways.

One of the things that we did is, we You.

In the second.

got a new, diversion program in this little municipal court that was focusing on sort of the top ten You.

In the second.

offenses, which also happened to be offenses that did not involve victims and were nonviolent offenses.

Drug paraphernalia, obstructing official business, disorderly conduct, relatively low level cases, that probably aren't the highest of priority cases.

You.

In the second.

In the community.

But we're driving that jail population and we instead decided, let's divert those classes or sorry, those cases into a program where there would be an aspect of cognitive behavioral therapy, dosages of that to see in a relatively short period of time.

Can we impact decisions?

Can we impact the way interactions with law enforcement look?

Can we assist people in getting to treatment and services?

And, and maybe address, You.

In the second.

you know, those, behavioral health type issues and that actually, turns out, You.

In the second.

has impacted the, the racial and ethnic disparities.

And I think it was by design because we were looking to see what are the top ten offenses.

And we did cross-check to see by race are African-Americans overrepresented in, You.

In the second.

in those cases?

And they, in fact, were.

So I think we're addressing it that way.

Jason: In the second.

Out of seven strategies, $2.3 million were spent on quote, managing based on risk in quote to help judges make better decisions.

That money covered the first four years of enhanced electronic monitoring, including salaries for three new monitoring officers, a clerk and an an enforcement deputy earning 66,000 a year.

In episode one of the podcast.

Executive director of the Toledo Lucas County Criminal Justice Coordinating Council, Holly Matthews said those salaries were absorbed by the county as this strategy saved money.

Overall.

Funding also provided 105 GPS monitoring bracelets and phones for the team.

In addition, this paid for risk assessment scores using an algorithm to help judges determine who may be safely released.

And that's discussed in detail on episode three of the Rethinking Jails and Justice podcast.

Sean: It is also clear that there are individuals that cycle through the system and return to the system, and we can do the work as well as we can on an individual case.

But if we're not addressing any of the underlying issues that brought somebody into the system in the first place or contributed to them becoming a part of the system in the first place, then we can't be surprised when they return to the system.

That's where the social workers come in.

Jason: It's called the Opportunity Project, housed in the public defender's office and one part of strategy three, funded by 700,000 MacArthur Grant dollars.

The Opportunity Project engages with individuals shortly after their initial court appearance, offering voluntary participation.

The program aims to assess participants needs and connect them to services, potentially influencing case outcomes positively.

Now, this could lead to judges releasing participants on bond prosecutors, reducing charges or offering diversion, and ultimately reducing recidivism.

McNulty says the MacArthur Foundation provided technical assistance and funding for the attorney component.

Additionally, local mental health and recovery services supported the project by funding operational costs and to social workers.

Sean: After their very first appearance will go within hours to meet with them.

We want to see if they want to participate in the project.

They have the opportunity to do it, but it's not a mandate.

They don't have to.

But if they do, we'll try to help identify their needs and we'll try to connect them to the services.

And our thought was we will be able to impact the trajectory of the case through the end of their cases as well.

So we're trying to figure out ways that we can continue the expansion of the project, because we've seen such a benefit ad for every one of the places where we've introduced to social workers, those types of things are tangible things that you can let a prosecutor, a judge, know so that as we're trying to work through what should happen on this case and what the ultimate outcome is going to be, they have a little more confidence that something is actually going to be positive and again, hopefully lead to, you know, a likelihood of success.

Jason: You seem pretty confident that it will be able to continue.

Sean: Yeah, I absolutely think it is.

We've been able to sustain it now since, January of 2018, I think is where the first piece came in.

We've been able to expand it from there.

Jason: The MacArthur Foundation says they consider this program a success, and one that other MacArthur communities could emulate.

Sean: It makes me feel great.

Because we believe that it is just a complete change in how we are providing representation for people, and we think it is a much better way to provide representation.

It's like a team effort of looking at things, more broadly than we otherwise would have.

We believe they're going to end up with better outcomes on their cases.

But most importantly, we're hoping that we are going to help them, and support them to be successful.

So they're not returning to the system.

That's where we're finding, the real benefit from the social worker.

200,000 MacArthur Grant dollars were spent on strategy for diversion of underserved populations.

In addition to providing procedural fairness training throughout Lucas County, the strategy helped expand diversion, which is an alternative to traditional prosecution that redirects people away from the criminal justice system, and it addresses defendants with specific charges.

Sean: Drug paraphernalia.

Obstructing official business.

Disorderly conduct.

Relatively low level cases, that probably aren't the highest of priority cases.

So many of these cases were being booked in the jail, and these bookings had a disproportionate impact on minorities.

County leaders say together that procedural justice training and expanded diversion curriculum addressed the under-representation of African-Americans in diversion programs.

On the other side, strategy one aims to break the cycle by equipping law enforcement with skills in procedural justice, crisis, de-escalation, and more.

This includes offering pre-arrest options like deflection programs and community behavioral health resources.

Partnering with Ohio's attorney General, the county provides mandated training for officers on topics like community relations, implicit bias, crisis de-escalation, and constitutional use of force.

250,000 MacArthur Grant dollars was spent on strategy six community coordinated practices.

County leaders say before implementation, people on probation often face the complicated barrier of being supervised by multiple jurisdictions at the same time.

In some cases, probationers had two ankle monitors and two different sets of rules.

Lucas County leaders say they unified the five probation authorities to streamline probation practices and reduce violations that led to incarceration.

This coordinated approach includes county wide information sharing.

Training on evidence based practices, use of risk assessments, graduated sanctions, and consistent quality assurance through the Ohio Risk Assessment System.

The county determines supervision and programs based on client risk and needs.

Strategy five is about reducing racial and ethnic disparities.

The bulk of it, nearly $300,000, was awarded via micro grants to community organizations that could help reduce racial and ethnic disparities with their programing and engagement.

Episode eight of the Rethinking Jails and Justice podcast is dedicated to that.

100,000 grant dollars were set aside for that final strategy.

Amplification.

Public media was chosen to help with this strategy.

This after many county leaders say they could have done a better job of explaining the challenge and the reasons behind it to the community and even county employees.

Early on.

Pete: Outside the system.

That's a different work.

Community work.

Engaging with people on tap into barbershops and community centers.

Into churches.

That's different work.

That's more social work or community work or societal work.

The criminal justice system is pretty bureaucratic, right?

You got a judge.

You got to bail out.

If you got a sheriff.

Right?

You got a cop, you got a CEO in the jail.

We spent a lot of time in a bureaucratic system talking about what happens when people come in.

And there were some successes here.

I would have spent more money and time, and I think my voice through this whole process was consistently that.

Let's get out of here.

Let's hire some people to be out in the streets talking to people.

Let's engage people that are at the point of arrest.

You want to you want the system to change.

Take it right down to the point of arrest.

Do you think that Lucas County would have been more successful if they could have?

And did they even have the option of taking those millions of dollars and putting it into one thing, like, say, we're going to put it all into training, law enforcement to de-escalate or invest in community centers as opposed to all of the different strategies.

Sean: I don't think so.

And the reason I say that is this is a multifaceted problem.

We didn't get here overnight.

It wasn't one thing that caused it.

This is what I would say is like when I'm analyzing a problem, I talk about silver bullet problems where one thing is going to solve it or a multifaceted problem.

This is clearly a multifaceted thing.

Every community across the country of any size is dealing with similar issues, you know, to different degrees.

And because it's a multifaceted problem, I think it requires multifaceted solutions.

Pete: We could have distributed the money differently, but there was consensus.

Look, I'm only one voice in this room, right?

So I'm a consensus operator to, the judges and the systems operators, the judges and the bailiffs and the prosecutors, of course.

I thought it was more important to do some systems reform, and it was.

I'm not discounting that, but we needed to do some systems reform.

We needed to bring that Stryker population down from 435 to 160.

So that's a win.

There's more people out with a chance to be productive.

And locked up in jail 24 hours a day.

So those are wins.

There is uniform us, kind of guidelines on who gets bail released.

Now, they argue this, McArthur work.

We have been the judges to agree on a kind of a scoring system for bail.

So it's not entirely each judge, you know, calling for bail or not bail.

There's a, on time honored, rating system that they put everybody through.

That's a win.

So I don't mean to say that the justice challenge was a failure because there was a lot that came out of it, but at the end of the day, our challenge was to reduce the disparity of people in our jail.

But we didn't quite get to that.

Jason: If you could go back in time with a magic wand, what would you have done differently.

Pete: That more money out in the community bringing people from the police department.

So there are many people that that work.

Sometimes people get don't like the term police reform, right.

So let's not call it that.

Let's call it engagement.

Let's sit out.

We all know how the system works.

You can find people on every block.

There are thought leader on that block, right.

There might be the grandmother that sits on her porch.

She might sure rule the block.

Sometimes nobody will disrespect her.

She has empathy and command.

How do we get to those thought leaders with thoughtful police strategies to say, we're not here to roust you?

We're not here to look for your license plate.

We're not here to, you know, bust you up and try to get you on a bench warrant, a habit.

How do we communicate with those thought leaders?

Sean: I would say that the disparity across the criminal justice system has been improved.

But when you look at the jail numbers, the disparity has actually increased.

Now, there are absolutely less people in the jail right now.

But when you look at length of stay and things like that, yeah, those disparities absolutely remain.

And I think in fact, in some cases have increased as an office, as a defender of individuals.

I want to see that people are treated equitably.

I want to see that we are treating people fairly regardless of race or gender, age, and that doesn't mean that we don't hold people in the jail.

So if there are people that are charged with a very violent offense and to determination has been made by a judge that they should be housed at the jail.

I think that similarly situated people should be treated the same.

So if there are aggravated murder charges and the decision is made to house them, then, you know, race may be impacted by the number of people with those particular types of charges.

But so long as I guess the, that the decision making up here is the same for similarly situated individuals.

You may have disparities, and I think those are disparities that a judge would be able to explain.

And, you'd be sort of less concerned about.

But when you have a situation where maybe you have low level offenses and you're seeing major disparities in how those are treated.

That, to me is a larger concern.

Jason: What many also find concerning skyrocketing jail construction and interest costs initially estimated at 220 million.

Commissioners say the project's cost rose to 290 million.

Sean: My understanding is on pause.

I don't know what that means for the future.

I do hope that we're in a position to, you know, as a community, get the jail built because I think that it will be, a more impactful, facility for clients of ours.

But I think it'll also be safer and more humane, not just for the individual clients, but also for the staff that work there every day.

Jason: Is it going to happen?

Sean: I have no idea.

I certainly hope so.

The is being asked to do a lot of things right, and we've talked about this for years, but I mean, they're being asked to be a detox facility and they're asked to be a behavioral health unit.

You know, and support people with lots of different medical needs, including mental health needs.

It's difficult.

I mean, they're they're not probably best positioned to provide those services, but there are times when, they've needed to become, you know, the place that's that's housing those individuals.

And if we want to do it in a humane way, and we want people to get better, not worse, in the facility, then I think a new jail is pretty critical to getting there.

Pete: It's tough work.

It's just hard work and a very complicated system that's traditionally underfunded.

We try to pass a jail levy.

People say we're not gonna pay tax dollars to build a jail.

I get that we're not going back to do that.

I got the answer.

It was no.

All right.

I am going to turn to the state and say it's your responsibility.

You pushed these obligations on us, and I think we have to continue to run a district separate tax.

We need more money from the state.

And we still need the cooperation of judges and we need to get out of the community and reduce the number of people get arrested.

I can say every county in the state is struggling on this.

Small counties, large counties, Republican, Democratic.

I go to the meetings of the County Commissioners Association.

We all have the same voice on there.

First of all, the state has to provide more money to the communities for jails.

At the end of the day, it's the state's responsibility.

This is a state criminal justice system at its top right.

It should be managed by the state.

They help push costs away from them and and the communities for the last ten years that you guys have to pay more for.

What does a state obligation.

You can't send us prisoners if they're sentenced to unless they're sentenced to a year or more in prison.

I've committed this jail project for ten years.

We have a site.

We took a long time to get one.

I think the general public isn't as concerned about.

The jail is a smaller class of voters are.

I think they want to continue to do economic development, community development, manage our staff.

It's an issue, I agree, but it's not the driving issue of what we do every day.

It's an important issue.

We still work with the sheriff, but, we're going to build a jail when it makes economic sense.

I can't bankrupt the rest of the county to build a jail.

All right.

And again, a lot of this is going to go back to Sheriff Navarre.

I think we can control the construction cost over time fairly quickly.

I know we can control the interest rates coming down in the near term, but he has to wring costs out of his operation to do it.

He has to be successful in getting a staffing plan that will allow his less people to do the same work that they're doing today under a new system of behavior management called, you know, direct supervision and he's got to come to the table quickly.

Hasn't done that yet.

Jason: So really, you're kind of pointing the finger at him and saying, we're waiting on you.

Pete: I am, I am.

He says he has a plan.

I got to see it Jason: But the sheriff released a statement saying, quote, the staffing plan for a new jail was submitted to the county commissioners through members of their staff months ago.

He went on to say, I've had personal discussions with all three commissioners regarding this plan and its importance to the success of constructing a new facility.

The staffing plan will allow the new jail to operate with significantly less people, saving the county approximately $7.5 million annually.

It will be these cost savings that will pay a large portion of the annual debt payment.

End quote.

He said this plan was approved by the Fraternal Order of Police and commissioners know it.

Lisa: He's an amazing sheriff.

That's, You know, that's the role of the sheriff.

I mean, it's not for me to come in and say it's the sheriff.

This is what you need to do.

But we have to do this as a team.

If we're not doing this as a team, that we're not going to be successful.

Jason: Lucas County Commissioner Lisa Sobecki, a former state rep herself, says state leaders are the ones who need to step up.

need to step up.

Lisa: Lucas County.

We're trying to be able to build our jail here.

And my friends over in Ottawa and Erie and Sandusky are trying to build there's this is a state issue.

So I am proud.

I am proud of the legislature that in this General Assembly, when they did their operating budget for the first time in history in Ohio history, there was capital dollars for jails in the operating budget.

First time in history.

So and I'm proud of my friends and colleagues in the other counties that we work diligently with our state legislature.

The speaker of the House, the Senate president, to say, listen, this is an issue that we and also the governor is this is an issue that we have across the state.

We need help.

It it was a start, but it was isn't enough.

And so, I'm I'm, I continue as they're getting ready to go into the next general assembly is to advocate advocate with my colleagues, my fellow colleagues across the other counties like we did before, to be able to get some of that, that funding.

Jason: Some people in the community have speculated to me, the commissioners are waiting to pull the plug on this project until after Election day.

I know you're not on the ballot.

Lisa: Ballot or not?

Do they have a crystal ball?

I would love to borrow it because I have no crystal ball.

It's in the future.

I have no crystal ball of interest rates are going to come down.

It could be.

I don't know, but I share information with me.

If they know something, I don't know.

But is that we.

You know, I'm not going to stop this.

Commissioner.

Commissioner.

Lisa Sobecki is not going to stop.

I'm trying to find resources.

Resources so we can get this done.

We we are ready to solve this issue.

So that hypothetically say if we did pull it off and we wait a few years down the road, are we still going to have the same problem as we have now?

And that price tag might be higher.

Nida: They are quite honest about what has gone well and where they've faced challenges.

As I stated before.

They have been one of our most successful sites.

Jason: Despite the disappointing delay in construction.

MacArthur Foundation Program officer Nida Abasi says Lucas County leaders should celebrate their success.

Nida: They should feel positive about that and feel like they can sustain some of that momentum.

Lucas County has successfully sustained the reduction of their jail population.

We've seen a lot of places are struggling with their jail numbers and are seeing their length of stay go up, but Lucas County has been consistent and one of their best initiatives is our jail population review team, which is exactly what it sounds like.

Several stakeholders gather together.

Look at who is in jail or how long they've been in jail if they could be released, which really helps individuals safely reenter the community and also connects them to the resources that they need to stay out of the jail.

Jason: She says there's still a lot of work to be done across the nation.

Nida: Oh well.

We saw overall in our sites that as the jail populations are reduced, the disparities were actually increasing.

And of course, issues with race are not specific to the jail, but they exist across the entirety of the criminal justice system.

Given the history of racial inequity in this country, we also knew it was going to be challenging to address these issues and like a finite amount of time.

However, as the funder, we wanted to nudge the process along and each side, including Lucas County, and try to Do.

You.

do whatever we can to help them find different pathways to address these disparities and make sure they're doing it with intentionality and with all people that should be involved in that process.

Do.

You do.

I don't know that I would say Lucas County has done anything wrong in this, in this space.

I think it's just it's just been challenging across the board.

And we also did just start to get data from the side specific to race, which is helping us pinpoint where exactly disparities are existing, whether it's in, the arrest, whether it's in diversion programs, which can help inform local policies.

So I think it's just it's just a long game, like it's not going to be fixed in the short term, given the history of the system.

And being patient is also difficult in the space.

Jason: While the MacArthur Foundation will provide some support to Lucas County in the coming years.

Abasi says the foundation is no longer working in the criminal justice reform area, at least for now.

In a statement, she said, quote, making the criminal justice system more fair, equitable and just remains important.

All of our big bet program strategies aim to achieve transformative change over a time limited period of about ten years.

This is why our criminal justice strategy is due to come to a close soon.

We are very proud of the progress, safety and justice challenge communities have made in reducing the number of people in jails and addressing racial and ethnic disparities and, quote.

Meanwhile, Perez is thankful he had help.

Eloy: I'm proud of my kids.

I really am.

My grandkids too.

And they're marvelous.

Yeah, I love them.

Jason: Looking back on life is bittersweet.

Eloy: They're grown.

They got their own lives, you know, their own marriages, their own kids.

You know, and so I'm just glad to be here, that I can be here.

Jason: He wishes he hadn't wasted so much time in the streets.

But Eloy: I'm the one who severed, severed that chain of of this lifestyle.

Like with with my kids and my family, you know, or with my kids.

That it ends with me.

It's over.

Like that cycle's done.

There's no more revolving door.

I was selfish, and I didn't spend time with them like I showed them and do stuff like I should have.

wasted so much time in the streets.

But And even now, you know, I knew when I was coming home, you know.

Yeah.

Because you heard the song cat's in the cradle, right?

That's.

That's what I'm dealing with now.

You know, my kids got their lives.

They got their own lives now, you know?

Jason: But he chooses to be thankful.

Instead, Eloy: I got a charm that I had that a friend gave to me, and it's.

And I kept it in my pocket.

It's, the serenity prayer, and I keep it in my pocket.

God grant me serenity.

To accept the things I cannot change.

The courage to change the things that I can.

And the wisdom to know the difference.

When I reach in my pocket every day, I feel it.

And I know, I know it's there.

I'm doing this because I want to do it, but because I hope I can help people out.

I really do.

I know I chose the perfect job for me because it's it's therapeutic.

It really is therapeutic for me.

I'm riding with my windows up.

I have to have fresh air for free.

It's freedom because I get to see people.

I'm waving at people and I think I'm crazy.

Like, who is this guy waving at us?

You know, but they don't know where I'm coming from.

They don't know the freedom that I have.

But, you know, to see the beauty of everything.

Yeah.

And that's it.

Like to be able to see the beauty of everything that that exists outside of the city, outside of, you know, the fishbowl.

You know, we're always stuck in the hood and being stuck in the city and being stuck in, in a fishbowl, not knowing that there's a whole ocean of life out there.

You know what I mean?

And when people can learn to get out of that fishbowl and see what everything else is out there, it's life changing.

And to be able to do that, coming home from prison, to be able to do that and do it in a truck and do it as a job, you can't beat that.

Willie: win win Eloy: It's a win win.

Music:Do you feel what the eyes can't see you here.

Because way down deep.

Trust your heart and I'll keep you through this world.

Expect so much from you.

Every step will test your soul.

You'll walk out pure and whole.

Stronger than they before.

I will fight for my.