>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO. "

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> THIS CONSTITUTES YET ANOTHER INSTANCE OF INTERFERENCE, THIS HYBRID WAR THAT RUSSIA IS EFFECTIVELY WAGING AGAINST US.

>> RUSSIA RAMPING UP A HYBRID WAR ON EUROPE AFTER GERMANY ACCUSES MOSCOW OF A DRONE ATTACK ON ITS AIRPORT.

HOW SHOULD NATO RESPOND?

I ASK PETR PAVEL, PRESIDENT OF THE CZECH REPUBLIC AND FORMER SENIOR NATO OFFICIAL.

> >> THEN -- >> I WAS A GOVERNOR IN A STATE, I WOULD WANT TO HAVE THE DATA CENTERS.

>> EVERYDAY AMERICANS ARE CONCERNED ABOUT BEING OVERRUN BY DATA CENTERS.

>> THE BATTLE OVER DATA CENTERS.

PUSHBACK FROM PEOPLE AND LEGISLATORS ACROSS BOTH PARTIES.

I'LL SPEAK TO TENNESSEE'S JUSTIN PEARSON.

> >> PLUS -- >> I THINK THERE IS A LOT OF CHAOS COMING FOR ELECTION ADMINISTRATORS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO GET THESE ABSENTEE BALLOTS OUT IN TIME.

>> TRUMP'S PROPOSED MAIL-IN BALLOTS RULES RAISE SERIOUS QUESTIONS.

HOW WE GOT HERE AND WHAT IT ALL MEANS JUST MONTHS BEFORE THE MIDTERMS.

?

?

> >> "AMANPOUR & CO. "

IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS CANDACE KING WEIR THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND CHARLES ROSENBLUM MONIQUE SCHOEN WARSHAW KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

ARSON ATTACKS, AIRSPACE VIOLATIONS, AND ASSASSINATION SQUADS.

RUSSIA IS ESCALATING HYBRID WAR AGAINST EUROPEAN NATO STATES.

THAT WAS THE WARNING FROM POLAND'S FOREIGN MINISTER RADEK SIKORSKI AT A MEETING OF EU FOREIGN MINISTERS IN IRELAND TODAY, AND IT COMES JUST AFTER GERMANY ANNOUNCED THAT IT WAS, IN FACT, MOSCOW BEHIND LAST MONTH'S ATTACK AT LEIPZIG AIRPORT WHERE AN EXPLOSIVE DRONE WAS FOUND NEAR TWO UKRAINIAN CARGO PLANES.

>> LET ME MAKE IT CLEAR, WE ARE NOT AT WAR, BUT WE ARE THE DAILY TARGET OF HYBRID WARFARE.

>> MEANWHILE, POLAND IS INVESTIGATING A FIRE AT A FACTORY THAT MAKES DRONE COMPONENTS.

ROMANIA HAD TO SHOOT DOWN A NAVAL DRONE NEAR A BLACK SEA GAS PLATFORM, AND NEW INTELLIGENCE DISCOVERED A RUSSIAN PLOT TO ASSASSINATE A CEO OF A GERMAN ARMS MANUFACTURER THAT PRODUCES ARTILLERY FOR UKRAINE.

CIA DIRECTOR JOHN RATCLIFFE WENT TO MOSCOW LAST WEEK TO ISSUE A WARNING, DO NOT ESCALATE AGAINST NATO HE APPARENTLY TOLD RUSSIA.

BUT WILL THEY LISTEN?

OUR FIRST GUEST TONIGHT SAID ON THIS PROGRAM BACK IN APRIL THAT PUTIN WOULD LIKELY ATTEMPT INCREASINGLY BOLD CAMPAIGNS AGAINST NATO.

IS THIS WHAT'S HAPPENING NOW?

THE PRESIDENT OF THE CZECH REPUBLIC PETR PAVEL JOINS ME FROM PRAGUE.

MR.

PRESIDENT, WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM.

AND AS I MENTIONED, YOU WARNED ON THIS PROGRAM A FEW MONTHS AGO THAT THIS IS PRECISELY WHAT PUTIN WOULD DO.

IS THIS KIND OF THE "I TOLD YOU SO" MOMENT?

>> I BELIEVE THAT THIS IS EXACTLY THE PATTERN OF RUSSIAN BEHAVIOR IN THE LAST COUPLE OF MONTHS.

RUSSIA WHERE THEY CANNOT LAUNCH AN OPEN MILITARY ACTION AGAINST NATO IS USING ALL THE ARSENAL OF INDIRECT ACTIONS FROM SUBVERSION THROUGH INCURSIONS INTO SOVEREIGN AIRSPACE, PROVOCATION AT MARITIME SPACE, BUT ALSO INFORMATION CAMPAIGNS AGAINST DIFFERENT COUNTRIES, ALL MOTIVATED BY THE OLD RULE DIVIDE AND RULE.

>> MR.

PRESIDENT, DO YOU THINK THIS IS BECAUSE APPARENTLY AMERICAN INTELLIGENCE HAS TOLD RUSSIA THAT THEY ARE NOT WINNING, THAT THE ECONOMIC AND MILITARY SITUATION FOR RUSSIA IS VERY, VERY DIRE.

DO YOU THINK THIS IS A DESPERATE SORT OF HAIL MARY PASS BY PUTIN, OR WAS HE ALWAYS GOING TO DO THIS?

>> WELL, PRESIDENT PUTIN ALWAYS SEEKS FOR AN EXTERNAL ENEMY.

THERE IS NO ATTENTION WHATSOEVER FROM EUROPEAN COUNTRIES TO INVADE RUSSIA.

NO ONE IS SO CRAZY.

BUT RUSSIA ALWAYS INSISTS TO THEIR OWN POPULATION THAT THEY ARE UNDER THREAT FROM THE WEST.

AND THAT'S WHY WHEN THEY DO NOT SUCCEED IN AGGRESSION AGAINST UKRAINE, THEY ARE LOOKING FOR EXTERNAL ENEMIES AND THE FIRST PLACE EUROPEAN COUNTRIES SUPPORTING UKRAINE ARE NOW THEIR DIRECT FOCUS.

THAT'S WHY THEY LAUNCH A NUMBER OF INDIRECT ATTACKS AGAINST EUROPEAN COUNTRIES TO DISUNITE EUROPEAN UNION, NATO, TO DISCOURAGE THESE COUNTRIES FROM SUPPORT UKRAINE, AND TO CREATE PERCEPTION THAT RUSSIA CAN ACT WHEREVER THEY CHOOSE.

>> MR.

PRESIDENT, THIS WEEK IN, YOU KNOW, IN RESPONSE TO ALL OF THIS, THE NATO SECRETARY GENERAL, MARK RUTTER BASICALLY SAID THAT NATO IS UNITED.

WE UNDERSTAND THAT JOHN RATCLIFFE, THE CIA DIRECTOR, WENT TO MOSCOW TO TELL THEM THAT NATO IS UNITED, NOT TO ATTACK ANY EITHER INDIRECTLY OR DIRECTLY ANY NATO COUNTRY, AND THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP WOULD NOT STAND FOR IT.

DO YOU BELIEVE THAT NATO IS UNITED?

IN THE PAST, YOU SAID NATO HAS TO SHOW ITS TEETH IN RESPONSE TO RUSSIA'S REPEATED ATTACKS AND PROVOCATIONS.

>> IF PRESIDENT PUTIN WANTING TO DISUNITE NATO AND THE EU BY LAUNCHING AN AGGRESSION AGAINST UKRAINE, HE ACHIEVED JUST AN OPPOSITE.

NATO COUNTRIES ARE MORE UNITED.

THEY ARE MORE DETERMINED TO DEFEND THEIR TERRITORY.

THEY ARE MORE DETERMINED TO SPEND MORE ON THEIR OWN DEFENSE AND TO DETER RUSSIA FROM ANY OPEN MILITARY ACTION.

AND AS I MENTIONED, AS RUSSIA IS AWARE THAT LAUNCHING A DIRECT AGGRESSION WOULD NOT MEET THEIR OBJECTIVES, THEY ARE NOW FOCUSING ON ACTIONS THAT ARE BELOW THE THRESHOLD OF MILITARY AGGRESSION.

AND THEY HAVE THE WHOLE ARSENAL OF THESE EVENTS WHICH THEY ARE NOW USING, MAKING ATTRIBUTION TO RUSSIA MORE COMPLICATED, NOT IMPOSSIBLE, AND THEY'RE TRYING TO CREATE ATMOSPHERE OF DISTRUST TO INSTITUTIONS TO SOW DIVISIONS AMONG NATIONS, BUT ALSO TO DISCOURAGE THEM FROM SUPPORTING UKRAINE AND FROM HOSTILE OPINIONS AGAINST RUSSIA.

>> WELL, LET ME ASK YOU THAT, BECAUSE THIS IS THE CRUX OF THE MATTER, ISN'T IT.

I DON'T KNOW WHETHER THEY ARE SUCCESSFUL IN DISCOURAGING YOUR COUNTRIES FROM SUPPORTING UKRAINE, BUT YOUR COUNTRIES ARE HAVING A REALLY HARD TIME RIGHT NOW SUPPORTING UKRAINE.

THE AMOUNT OF, YOU KNOW, SPECIFIC WEAPONS THAT ARE NEEDED, INTERCEPTORS, MISSILE DEFENSE, ET CETERA ARE BEING EXPENDED IN THE U. S. WAR OF CHOICE ON IRAN, AND WE ALL KNOW THERE IS NOT ENOUGH IN UKRAINE.

THEY HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO USE ANY INTERCEPTORS RECENTLY AS RUSSIA HAS POUNDED UKRAINE DAY AND NIGHT WITH VOLLEYS AND VOLLEYS OF DRONES AND MISSILES.

HOW DO YOU, PARTICULARLY AS A FORMER MILITARY OFFICER, VIEW THE STATE OF BATTLE RIGHT NOW?

>> IT'S MORE OR LESS STALEMATE.

RUSSIA IS NOT SUCCEEDING, EVEN THOUGH RUSSIAN PROPAGANDA INSISTS THAT THE WAR IS GOING WELL.

FOR EVERY SQUARE KILOMETER THAT RUSSIA ACHIEVES FROM UKRAINE, THEY LOSE MORE THAN ONE THOUSAND PEOPLE.

THE RATE OF CASUALTIES IS HIGHER THAN THE RATE OF RECRUITMENT.

AND OVER LAST YEAR, THEY ACQUIRED LESS THAN 0.

4% OF UKRAINIAN TERRITORY.

THAT CANNOT BE TRANSLATED AS A SUCCESS.

AND THAT'S WHY THEY ARE TRYING TO DO ANYTHING POSSIBLE TO DEMONSTRATE THAT THEY HAVE THE POWER TO WIN THE CONFLICT.

THAT'S WHY THEY ARE FOCUSING ON SOFT TARGETS, CREATING TERROR, CREATING FEAR AND CREATING BELIEFS THAT RUSSIA CANNOT BE DEFEATED.

>> AND WHAT DO YOU THINK?

CAN UKRAINE HOLD OUT WITHOUT THE NECESSARY DEFENSIVE WEAPONS?

>> WELL, I BELIEVE THAT UKRAINE HAS DEMONSTRATED TREMENDOUS DETERMINATION AND COURAGE.

THEY ARE VERY INNOVATIVE IN COMING UP WITH A NEW TACTICS WITH NEW EQUIPMENT, AND WITH OUR SUPPORT, THEY ARE HOLDING RUSSIAN AGGRESSION BACK.

I BELIEVE THAT THEY WILL BE ABLE TO COME UP WITH A NEW WAYS OF LET'S SAY INDIRECT ACTIVITIES, DEEP STRIKES INTO RUSSIAN TERRITORY, TARGETING WHAT RUSSIAN POPULATION AND HOW IT FEELS AS THE LIKE OF GAS, THE LIKE OF GOODS FROM DIFFERENT SHOPS AND eSHOPS, AND THAT ALL CREATES A PERCEPTION THAT UKRAINE WANTS TO ACHIEVE THAT THE WAR HAS MOVED FROM UKRAINE TERRITORY INTO RUSSIA AND INSISTING ON RUSSIAN POPULATION TO CREATE PRESSURE ON THEIR LEADERSHIP.

>> AND DO YOU SEE THAT WORKING?

WE READ ALLY SOME IN THE RUSSIAN ELITE ARE SOMEHOW MAKING IT KNOWN THAT THIS WAR NEEDS TO STOP, WHETHER IT'S IN THE ECONOMIC SECTOR, SOME DIPLOMATIC SECTOR.

WE'RE READING, YOU KNOW, EVIDENCE THAT AT LEAST SOME PEOPLE ARE STARTING TO SAY THINGS OUT LOUD, AND IT'S NOT APPRECIATED BY THE KREMLIN.

DO YOU THINK --WHAT DO YOU KNOW?

WHAT IS YOUR INTELLIGENCE TELL YOU ABOUT WHAT'S BEING SAID NOW?

>> I BELIEVE THAT RUSSIAN POPULATION IS GENERALLY TIRED BY THE WAR AS UKRAINIAN POPULATION.

THEY DON'T WANT IT IN GENERAL.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME, THEY ARE BEING CONVINCED BY THEIR LEADERSHIP THAT RUSSIA CANNOT LOSE THIS CONFLICT, THAT THEY EVENTUALLY WILL PREVAIL, AND IN A RUSSIAN SPIRIT, LOSING MEANS ALMOST DISASTER.

THAT'S WHY THEY NEED AT LEAST PERCEPTION OF A VICTORY.

I BELIEVE THAT WE ALL HAVE TO INSIST THAT ENDING THE WAR IS ACTUALLY THE VICTORY FOR EVERYONE, INCLUDING RUSSIAN POPULATION, WHICH WILL, AGAIN GET ACCESS TO OIL AND GAS, TO ALL THE GOODS THEY ARE USED TO, BECAUSE CONTINUATION OF THAT CONFLICT IS NOT IN THEIR INTERESTS, AS IT IS NOT IN OUR INTERESTS.

>> YEAH.

WE UNDERSTAND THAT THE CIA DIRECTOR ALSO TOLD HIS INTELLIGENCE COUNTERPARTS THERE IN MOSCOW THAT THEY NEEDED TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO BRING AN END TO THIS WAR.

BUT PUTIN SHOWS NO SIGNS OF IT, AND THE MAIN ADVISER TO PRESIDENT PUTIN, THE SPOKESMAN DMITRY PESKOV HAS SAID NO PEACE TALKS ARE ON THE HORIZON.

AND ESPECIALLY THEY DOUBLED DOWN ON THIS BECAUSE PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY OF UKRAINE HAS SAID THAT RUSSIAN AIRSPACE WILL BE EFFECTIVELY CLOSING AS HIS COUNTRY ESCALATES ON ITS DRONE THING.

PUTIN CALLED THAT STATE TERRORISM.

TAKE A LISTEN TO WHAT PUTIN SAID.

>> Translator: LISTEN, I HAVEN'T HEARD THESE STATEMENTS, BUT IF IT WAS SAID OUT LOUD, IT BORDERS STATE TERRORISM.

ALSO, I DRAW YOUR ATTENTION TO THE FACT THAT THEY ASK US TO RESUME TALKS WITH THEM, TO MEET THEM IN PERSON.

WELL, THERE CAN BE NO TALKS WITH TERRORISTS.

>> WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT, PRESIDENT PAVEL?

>> IT'S STRANGE TO HEAR TALKS ABOUT STATE TERRORISM FROM A MAN WHO DIRECTLY ORDERS IT, WHO COMMITS STATE TERRORISM ON OTHER COUNTRIES, INCLUDING MY OWN.

I BELIEVE THAT WE SHOULD NOW FOCUS MORE ON ENDING THE WAR IN UKRAINE AS A PRECONDITION OF OPENING NEGOTIATIONS ABOUT EUROPEAN SECURITY.

I BELIEVE THAT SUCH A WIDER SCOPE COULD ALLOW BROADER DEBATES, HOW TO ARRANGE EUROPEAN SECURITY FROM NORTHERN SEA TO BLACK SEA WHERE A PEACE IN UKRAINE WILL BE A NECESSARY PRECONDITION.

BUT IN GENERAL, PART OF THAT ARRANGEMENT.

>> WHEN WE SPOKE IN PRAGUE A FEW MONTHS AGO, ONE OF THE THINGS YOU SAID TO ME REGARDING PUTIN'S ACTIONS IS THAT YES, PUTIN WOULD BE CRAZY TO TRY TO ATTACK FULL FRONTAL ANY EUROPEAN OR NATO COUNTRY, BUT WOULD TRY TO HUMILIATE NATO BY MAYBE LIMITED ACTIONS, PERHAPS IN THE BALTICS TO, AS YOU SAID THAT, TO CLEARLY DEMONSTRATE THAT NATO IS ACTUALLY USELESS BECAUSE IT DOESN'T ACT.

IN OTHER WORDS, HE WOULD BE TESTING NATO AND PRODDING IT AND DARING NATO TO RESPOND.

DO YOU STILL STAND BY THAT?

AND DO YOU FEEL NATO IS SHOWING THAT IT IS WILLING TO DEFEND, AS IT ALWAYS SAID, NOT ONE INCH OF TERRITORY TO RUSSIA?

>> I BELIEVE THAT THIS IS A FEATURE OF RUSSIAN ATTITUDE TOWARDS THE WEST SHOWING WHERE THEY CAN GO AND TESTING.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME, THEY ARE WELL AWHERE IS THE BORDER, WHERE IS THE THRESHOLD UP TO WHICH THEY CAN GO.

AND THAT'S WHY I REALLY GLAD THERE IS GROWING UNDERSTANDING WITH NATO BEING AT MILITARY OR POLITICAL OR POLITICAL PART OF NATO THAT WE HAVE TO BE WILLING TO NOT ONLY DETER, BUT ALSO TO ACT IF NECESSARY WHEN OUR AIRSPACE OR TERRITORY IS VIOLATED.

THIS IS THE ONLY WAY THAT CAN STOP RUSSIA IN TESTING OUR RESILIENCE.

>> SO IN THAT CASE, HOW IMPORTANT DO YOU THINK IT WAS?

BECAUSE PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS SAID MANY THINGS THAT CAST DOUBT ON AMERICA'S SUPPORT FOR NATO.

HOW IMPORTANT WAS THE VISIT OF THE CIA CHIEF?

AND, AGAIN, HE HASN'T SAID BUT "WALL STREET JOURNAL" AND OTHERS HAVE SAID THAT HE BASICALLY TOLD THEM DO NOT THINK THAT THE PRESIDENT IS NOT BEHIND NATO.

IS THAT A RELIEF TO YOU?

DO YOU THINK IT'S ENOUGH?

>> NATO IS BUILT ON UNITY.

AND OF COURSE UNITED STATES IS THE MOST IMPORTANT MEMBER OF NATO.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME, WITH TIME GOING TOWARDS MORE RESPONSIBILITY OF EUROPEAN COUNTRIES FOR THEIR CONVENTIONAL DEFENSE, I BELIEVE THAT WE SHOULD COME UP TO A POSITION THAT ANY COUNTRY THAT WOULD BE ATTACKED BY RUSSIA WOULD EFUSELY DEFEND ITSELF AND ALL OTHER MEMBERS OF NATO WILL COME TO ASSIST SUCH A COUNTRY, BECAUSE IT IS THE ONLY WAY HOW WE CAN PROTECT OUR SOVEREIGNTY, OUR FREEDOM IN FUTURE, BECAUSE RUSSIA IS AND WILL REMAIN OUR PRIMARY MILITARY THREAT.

>> YOU GAVE AN INTERVIEW TO A BRITISH NEWSPAPER A COUPLE OF MONTHS AGO.

YOU SAID THAT THERE WAS ESSENTIALLY A TWO- MONTH WINDOW.

THAT'S WHAT YOU SAID BACK THEN, TO PUSH RUSSIA TOWARDS TALKS, BECAUSE THERE IS GOING TO BE AN ELECTION, AND THAT MIGHT, YOU SAID, CLOSE OFF ROOM FOR NEGOTIATIONS.

AND THAT'S IN SEPTEMBER, LATER THIS MONTH, SEPTEMBER 20th.

AND YOU SAID MAYBE THE KREMLIN MIGHT DECIDE ON SERIOUS ESCALATION OR A MASSIVE -- WELL, WHICH WOULD ALSO REQUIRE A MASSIVE MOBILIZATION.

CAN YOU EXPLAIN AND SORT OF EXPAND ON THAT.

>> WELL, UP TO NOW, PRESIDENT PUTIN DIDN'T COME OUT TO CALLING FOR MOBILIZATION BECAUSE HE UNDERSTAND THAT IT'S HIGHLY UNPOPULAR AMONG RUSSIAN MALE POPULATION.

WHEN THEY DECLARED MOBILIZATION LAST TIME, THERE WERE ABOUT 1.

5 MILLION YOUNG RUSSIANS FLEEING THE COUNTRY TO NEIGHBORING COUNTRIES AND TO EUROPE.

I THINK THEY ARE VERY AWARE THAT THE WAR IS HIGHLY UNPOPULAR AND YOUNG PEOPLE, YOUNG MEN ARE NOT WILLING TO GO TO DIE, BECAUSE AS POINT WHEN I WAS VISITING RUSSIA, LIFE EXPECTANCY OF YOUNG RECRUITS WHO COME OUT TO BATTLEFIELD IS BETWEEN 20 AND 30 MINUTES.

AND OF COURSE THERE IS NO FAMILY THAT WOULD BE HAPPY SENDING THEIR SONS INTO SOMETHING SUCH A FEARS STATIONARY WAR IN UKRAINE.

SO PRESIDENT PUTIN WILL BE MORE WILLING TO CALL FOR MOBILIZATION AFTER THE ELECTIONS BECAUSE THEN HE CAN AFFORD TO IGNORE PUBLIC PERCEPTIONS AND OPINION.

>> IT'S A VERY TERRIFYING THOUGHT.

AND THAT STAT THAT YOU JUST SAID IS JUST EXTRAORDINARY.

LIFE EXPECTANCY ON THE FRONT LINE OF 20 TO 30 MINUTES.

IT'S JUST ABSOLUTELY EXTRAORDINARY.

SO FINALLY, I JUST WANT TO ASK YOU, THEN, IS IT BETTER TO TRY TO ENGAGE THE RUSSIANS OR TO TRY TO KEEP ISOLATING THEM?

AS YOU WELL KNOW, AT THE G20, THE UNITED STATES ADMINISTRATION INVITED THE RUSSIAN FINANCE MINISTER TO NORTH CAROLINA.

EU COUNTRIES WERE FURIOUS.

ALLIES WERE FURIOUS AND REFUSED TO TAKE PART IN A PHOTO OP.

WHAT WAS YOUR VIEW OF THAT?

>> FRANKLY, I DON'T CONSIDER SUCH A MOVE THE RIGHT ONE BECAUSE IT SOUNDS LIKE AN EFFORT TO NORMALIZE RELATIONSHIP WITH RUSSIA.

WE SHOULDN'T ISOLATE COMPLETELY RUSSIA.

WE SHOULD BE VERY FIRM IN OUR POSITION.

WE ARE OPEN TO NEGOTIATION WITHOUT PRECONDITIONS AND AFTER THEY STOP FIGHTING AT THE LINE OF CONTACT, AS IT IS NOW.

THAT'S THE FOUNDATIONAL CONDITION FOR ANY NEGOTIATION.

I BELIEVE THAT RUSSIA IS NOT IN A POSITION TO NEGOTIATE FROM THE POSITION OF POWER, AND WE ALSO DON'T WANT TO NEGOTIATE FROM THE POSITION OF POWER.

WE SIMPLY WANT TO COME OUT TO A FAIR ARRANGEMENT THAT WILL FOLLOW INTERNATIONAL NORMS AND INTERNATIONAL LAW.

THAT'S THE ONLY THING THAT WE SHOULD COME UP WITH.

AND IF RUSSIA IS WILLING TO START NEGOTIATION, THEN AFTER SOME RESULTS, WE CAN NEGOTIATE ALSO RELEASING THE PRESSURE OF SANCTIONS AND POTENTIALLY EVEN NORMALIZING OUR RELATIONS.

BUT WITHOUT STOPPING THE WAR, WITHOUT COMING TO AN ARRANGEMENT THAT WILL BE CONSISTENT IN INTERNATIONAL NORMS, I THINK WE CANNOT NORMALIZE BECAUSE ANY SUCH A MOVE WOULD ONLY ENCOURAGE RUSSIA THAT THINGS ARE COMING TO NORMAL, EVEN WITH CONTINUATION OF WAR IN UKRAINE.

>> YES.

THAT'S REALLY AN INTERESTING OBSERVATION, AND WE APPRECIATE YOU BEING WITH US TONIGHT.

PRESIDENT OF THE CZECH REPUBLIC PETR PAVEL, THANKS FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

> >> LET DANE THAT RAIN DECLARES PRESIDENT TRUMP AS HE REJECTS A GROWING PEOPLE MOVEMENT AGAINST DATA CENTERS.

THEY ARE NEEDED TO POWER ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE.

THEY REQUIRE AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF ENERGY AND WATER, AND THEY'RE POPPING UP ALL OVER AMERICA.

THE PRESIDENT IS ADAMANT, THOUGH, THEY'RE IMPORTANT FOR JOBS AND GROWTH.

BUT PUSHBACK IS SURPRISINGLY BIPARTISAN.

TENNESSEE STATE REPRESENTATIVE JUSTIN PEARSON JOINS ME NOW FROM MEMPHIS.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, REPRESENTATIVE PEARSON.

AND IT HAS TO BE SAID YOU'RE ALSO REALLY IN THE MIDST OF THIS FIGHT.

YOU'RE AN ACTIVIST ALSO FOR YOUR PEOPLE AND FOR YOUR DISTRICT AGAINST THESE DATA CENTERS.

YOU'RE CALLING IT THE FIGHT OF OUR LIVES.

TELL ME WHY.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

THESE FIGHTS ARE SHOWING ALL ACROSS OUR COUNTRY IN REPUBLICAN- LED AREAS, IN DEMOCRATIC-LED AREAS THAT THE BILLIONAIRE CLASS IS WILLING TO SACRIFICE OUR AIR, SACRIFICE OUR WATER, DESTROY OUR COMMUNITIES FOR THEIR PROFITS.

I HAVE A DATA CENTER THREE MILES AWAY FROM MY HOUSE BUILT BY ELON MUSK.

HE OPERATED 35 ILLEGAL GAS TURBINES FOR OVER A YEAR AND NOW HAS 59 IN NORTH MISSISSIPPI.

THESE COMPANIES DO NOT CARE ABOUT OUR LIVES AND IT'S THE RESPONSIBILITY OF PEOPLE WHO ARE ELECTED TO OFFICE TO FIGHT FOR US.

AND THAT'S WHAT I'M SEEKING TO DO IN THIS STATE HOUSE AND IN A RUN FOR CONGRESS.

>> YES, YOU ARE RUNNING FOR CONGRESS.

AND OF COURSE THIS IS ALL PART OF IT.

LET ME JUST ASK YOU, BECAUSE I'VE SEEN A LOT OF WRITING ABOUT THE PUSHBACK.

SOME PEOPLE THOUGHT THAT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WOULD JUST SORT OF, YOU KNOW, GET DOWN WITH ALL OF THIS AND SORT OF SHRUG AND SAY IT'S THE WAY OF THE FUTURE.

BUT IT IS REALLY A POPULAR MOVEMENT AGAINST THESE DATA CENTERS.

DOES THAT SURPRISE YOU?

AND ALSO THE BIPARTISAN NATURE OF IT WHEN IT COMES TO POLITICS.

>> YEAH, IT REALLY DOESN'T SURPRISE ME THAT WE'RE START SEEING THE REPUBLICANS, INDEPENDENTS, AND DEMOCRATS ORGANIZING TOGETHER AROUND AN ISSUE THAT AFFECTS OUR AIR, OUR WATER, AND HONESTLY, IT'S AFFECTING PEOPLE'S ABILITY TO HAVE JOBS WELL INTO THE FUTURE.

AS WE KNOW, 15 TO 30% OF THE WORKFORCE IS GOING TO BE TAKEN AWAY BY ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE, ROBOTICS AND AUTOMATION.

I'VE BEEN DOING ENVIRONMENTAL JUSTICE ORGANIZING FOR SIX YEARS, AND WE'VE ALWAYS BEEN ABLE TO BUILD THESE COALITIONS OF WHITE FOLKS, BLACK FOLKS, ASIAN, LATINO AMERICANS RICHER FOLKS AND POORER FOLKS ON ISSUES THAT IMPACT ALL OF US.

WHAT I THINK AT THIS MOMENT IN TIME IS WHEN OF THOSE POLITICAL ISSUES THAT PEOPLE ARE WILLING TO CROSS POLITICAL BOUNDARIES FOR BECAUSE THE CONSEQUENCES ARE SO SEVERE.

WE'RE HAVING OUR AQUIFERS DEPLETED.

PEOPLE'S LAND AND FARMLAND IS BEING DEPLETED.

67% OF DATA CENTERS ARE BEING PLANNED IN RURAL AMERICA WHERE OVERWHELMINGLY YOU HAVE MORE CONSERVATIVE FOLKS AND PEOPLE WHO VOTE REPUBLICAN.

AND I THINK WE HAVE A REAL PARTICULAR MOMENT IN TIME HERE WHERE THIS MOVEMENT IS REALLY BUILDING AND GAINING POWER BECAUSE WE'RE REALIZING POLITICAL DIVIDES ISN'T CHANGING THE FACT THAT THE BILLIONAIRE CLASS IS THE ONE WHO IS PROFITING FROM THESE PROJECTS WHILE THE REST OF US ARE PAYING THE BILL FOR IT.

>> OF COURSE, AS YOU KNOW BETTER THAN I DO THAT AI AND EVERYTHING AROUND IT IS POWERING THE AMERICAN ECONOMY RIGHT NOW.

AND PRESIDENT TRUMP AND MANY, MANY OTHERS SAY THAT JUST THE BUILDING OF THESE DATA CENTERS, THE AMOUNT OF THE THOUSANDS OF THEM.

THE AMOUNT OF JOB CAPACITY THAT THEY WILL ENTAIL FOR THE FUTURE, THE IDEA OF BEING COMPETITIVE AMERICA WHILE YOU HAVE THIS, YOU KNOW, ONSLAUGHT OF COMPETITION COMING FROM CHINA, ALL OF THESE ARE MASSIVELY IMPORTANT AND WILL DO GOOD FOR THE PEOPLE IN GENERAL IN TERMS OF JOBS AND THE ECONOMY.

>> I MEAN, THAT'S WHAT THEY SAY.

BUT IT HAS NOT BEEN PROVEN TRUE.

PEOPLE LIKE ELON MUSK HAVE BECOME NEAR TRILLIONAIRES AND MAKING HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS OF DOLLARS.

BUT WE HAVEN'T FELT THOSE BENEFITS IN OUR ECONOMY.

IN FACT, THE MOST SIGNIFICANT USE CASE FOR A LOT OF THESE COMPANY HAS BEEN TAKING AWAY PEOPLE'S JOBS.

THE EFFECT OF MORE DATA CENTERS AND THE HYPER SCALED CENTERS PARTICULARLY HAVEN'T BEEN MORE INNOVATION THAT HAS SOMEHOW BENEFITTED THE GLOBAL ECONOMY OR BENEFITTED US ACROSS THIS COUNTRY, PARTICULARLY WORKING CLASS PEOPLE.

AGAIN, HE IS A BILLIONAIRE.

THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES IS A BILLIONAIRE.

HE IS ONLY TRYING TO DO THINGS THAT ARE GOING TO BENEFIT PEOPLE IN HIS SOCIAL CLASS.

BUT FOR OTHER HARDWORKING CLASS BLUE COLLAR FOLKS, WHITE COLLAR FOLKS, THIS IS GOING TO HAVE A DETRIMENTAL IMPACT ON OUR REALITY.

AND THEN WHEN IT COMES TO THE SITING OF THESE FACILITIES, THEY'RE ALWAYS IN THE SAME PLACES.

THEY'RE NEVER AT MAR- A-LAGO, WHICH IS WHERE I WANT TO SEE ONE BUILT.

THEY'RE NEVER IN THE CEOs' NEIGHBORS, THEY'RE ALL OF THE SUDDEN IN WORKING CLASS COMMUNITIES WHERE PEOPLE THINK WE DON'T HAVE POLITICAL POWER TO FIGHT BACK AND RESIST.

AND WHAT WE'RE SEEING ACROSS THIS COUNTRY IS THAT THE PEOPLE THAT LIVE IN THESE NEIGHBORHOODS ARE GOING TO FIGHT BACK FOR THEMSELVES BECAUSE PEOPLE LIKE DONALD TRUMP DON'T CARE ABOUT US.

>> JUST, YOU KNOW, TO PUT A POINT ON THAT, THE GALLUP POLL MOST RECENTLY IN MAY SAYS 70% OF ALL AMERICANS OPPOSE THE LOCAL CONSTRUCTION OF THESE CENTERS.

ONLY 27 FAVOR IT.

JUST GIVE US AN IDEA AGAIN.

YOU SPOKE BRIEFLY ABOUT IT AT THE BEGINNING.

HOW IS IT AFFECTING IN TERMS OF HEALTH AND POLLUTION AND THE OTHERS?

WHAT ARE THE RESULTS THAT YOU SEE IN YOUR OWN DISTRICT, IN YOUR OWN NEIGHBORHOOD WHERE YOU LIVE?

>> YEAH, SO, AGAIN, I LIVE THREE MILES AWAY FROM WHERE ELON MUSK BUILT THE FIRST HYPER SCALE DATA CENTER IN OUR COMMUNITY.

HE HAS NOW BUILT FOUR AND HAD 35 GAS TURBINES.

AND VERY SADLY, WE'VE SEEN AN INCREASE IN THE NUMBER OF CHILDREN GOING TO THE EMERGENCY ROOM FOR RESPIRATORY ILLNESSES.

WE KNOW THAT SOME FOLKS HAVE DIED PREMATURELY BECAUSE OF INCREASES IN THOUSANDS OF TONS OF NITROGEN OXIDES AND TONS OF FORMALDEHYDE IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

WE ALSO KNOW BECAUSE OF THE INCREASE IN GAS TURBINES THAT THEY'RE USING ILLEGALLY IN VIOLATION OF THE CLEAN AIR ACT AND RESEARCH FROM HARVARD PROFESSORS HAVE SHOWN US THAT WE'RE LIKELY TO SEE DOZENS OF PEOPLE PREMATURELY DIE FROM THE EXPOSURE AND THE POLLUTION THAT'S BEING PUMPED INTO OUR AIR.

SO THE CONSEQUENCES ARE REAL IN ADDITION TO THE MILLIONS OF GALLONS OF FRESH DRINKING WATER THAT'S BEING USED TO COOL THESE PLANTS AND THE WORKFORCE IMPLICATIONS OF PEOPLE, HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE HAVING ALREADY LOST THEIR JOBS AND MILLIONS LIKELY TO LOSE THEIR JOBS OVER THE NEXT FIVE TO SEVEN YEARS.

WE NEED TO STOP THIS.

WE NEED A NATIONAL POURATORIUM.

I'M FIGHTING FOR ONE RIGHT HERE IN MEMPHIS AND IN SHELBY COUNTY BECAUSE OUR PEOPLE'S LIVES MATTER WAY MORE THAN THE PROFITS OF THESE BILLIONAIRES.

>> LET ME JUST READ YOU SOME STATS, WHICH I FIND QUITE EXTRAORDINARY AND INTERESTING.

THE RESEARCH FIRM DATA CENTER WATCH SAID IN THE FIRST QUARTER OF THIS YEAR IT PRODUCED THE LARGEST CONCENTRATION OF BLOCKED AND DELAYED DATA CENTER PROJECTS EVER.

AT LEAST 75 PROJECTS APPARENTLY WORTH APPROXIMATELY $130 BILLION WERE DISRUPTED BY LOCAL OPPOSITION SUCH AS YOURS.

THAT'S --I MEAN, IS THAT THE SORT OF MOMENTUM THAT YOU THINK YOU CAN CARRY FORWARD?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

I THINK WE HAVE SO MUCH MOMENTUM NOW, NOT JUST AGAINST DATA CENTERS AND HYPER SCALE DATA CENTERS, BUT AGAINST THE REALITY THAT BILLIONAIRES ARE DOING EVERYTHING THEY CAN TO BUILD MORE OF THESE DATA CENTERS BECAUSE THEY WANT MORE MONEY AND THEY WANT MORE POLITICAL POWER TO CONTINUE THE CYCLE OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

IT REALLY IS THE BILLIONAIRES VERSUS THE REST OF US.

SO WHEN YOU SEE 70% OF AMERICANS WHO ARE OPPOSED TO DATA CENTERS, HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS OF DOLLARS BEING LOST BY THESE FOLKS BECAUSE COMMUNITIES ARE RISING UP IN OPPOSITION, IT GIVES ME HOPE AND COURAGE THAT IN REPUBLICAN AREAS, DEMOCRATIC AREAS, PEOPLE WHO ARE INDEPENDENTS THAT WE ARE STARTING TO FIND ONCE AGAIN THAT WE HAVE WAY MORE IN COMMON THAN WE DO APART, AND THAT IS THE TYPE OF MOMENTUM THAT IS NECESSARY REALLY TO BREAK THE BACK OF THESE CORPORATIONS THAT ARE EXPLOITING US, AND EXPLOITING OUR COMMUNITIES.

AND THEY ARE PICKING ON PLACES THAT THEY THINK DON'T HAVE A LOT OF POLITICAL POWER AND PLACES THAT THEY THINK ARE IN DESPERATE NEED OF THEIR TAX REVENUE.

AND SO BUZZ OF THAT, WE'RE WILLING TO ACCEPT THESE PROJECTS.

BUT THE MONEY THAT THESE CORPORATIONS BRING, THEY ARE INVEST IT IN THEIR CHIPS.

THEY'RE INVEST IT IN THEIR COMPUTERS.

THEY'RE NOT INVESTING IT IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

AND SO SOMETIMES THEY'LL SAY WELL, WE'RE BRINGING TENS OF BILLIONS OF DOLLARS INTO THIS NEIGHBORHOOD.

NO YOU ARE NOT.

I LIVE IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD WHERE ANTHROPIC SPENDS 1.

25 BILLION SHARING THE DATA CENTER WITH ELON MUSK.

WE ARE NOT SEEING BILLIONS OF DOLLARS OF INVESTMENT IN OUR COMMUNITY.

>> AND AS YOU MENTIONED, THE MIDTERMS ARE COMING UP.

YOU'RE RUNNING, AND MANY OTHERS ARE.

AND IT'S BECOME A VERY POTENT ISSUE, ESPECIALLY WITH CAMPAIGN ADS AND ALL THE REST.

I'M JUST GOING TO PLAY YOU SOME CLIPS OF HOW THIS IS BEING REFLECTED IN THE BATTLE FOR THE MIDTERMS.

>> HE'S BEEN CALLED THE FACE OF DATA CENTERS IN OHIO.

WHY?

BECAUSE JON HUSTED SPENT YEARS AGGRESSIVELY RECRUITING DATA CENTERS TO THE STATE, CUTTING SWEETHEART TAX DEALS AND FAST TRACKING APPROVALS WHILE ORDINARY RESIDENTS WATCHED THEIR ELECTRICITY BILLS EXPLODE.

>> JOSH SHAPIRO'S DATA CENTER SCANDAL KEEPS GROWING.

FIRST SHAPIRO HANDED AMAZON A FORTUNE IN TAX CREDITS TO BUILD A DATA CENTER HERE WITHOUT ANY COMMUNITY INPUT.

THEN FAST TRACKED BUILDING PERMITS ALSO WITHOUT ANY COMMUNITY INPUT.

AND SHAPIRO SAID HE IS PUTTING EVEN MOTHER DATA CENTERS IN OUR BACKYARDS.

>> SO OBVIOUSLY THE INTERESTING PART, AND YOU'LL KNOW THIS IS THAT THEY ARE A DEMOCRAT AND A REPUBLICAN BOTH TARGETING THEIR OPPONENTS FOR BEING PRO DATA CENTERS.

IS THIS, DO YOU THINK, A NEW AMERICAN POLITICAL COALITION THAT'S GROWING?

OR DO YOU THINK THAT AFTER THE MIDTERMS, PEOPLE MIGHT JUST GO BACK TO BECAUSE THEY KNOW IT'S UNPOPULAR, THEY MIGHT GO BACK TO SUPPORTING THEM?

>> I THINK THIS IS GOING TO BE AN ISSUE THAT IS BUILDING A NEW COALITION IN THE FIGHT FOR THE FUTURE.

AND A FUTURE THAT PRIORITIZES PEOPLE, THAT PRIORITIZES THE ENVIRONMENT, PRIORITIZES OUR HELP AGAINST THOSE WHO ARE SUPPORTING THESE HYPER SCALE DATA CENTERS AND THESE CORPORATIONS.

ANDst HONESTLY, IT'S BEEN PEOPLE IN THE DEMOCRATIC ESTABLISHMENT AND IT HAS BEEN PEOPLE IN THE DEMOCRATIC ESTABLISHMENT WHO HAVE BEEN SUPPORTING THESE PROJECTS AND NOW ALL OF THE SUDDEN ARE TRYING TO FLIP TEMPORARILY SO THEY CAN GET REELECTED.

BUT I THINK THE MASS MOVEMENT AND MOBILIZATION OF ORDINARY EVERYDAY PEOPLE IS WHAT IS GOING TO HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE WELL INTO THE FUTURE.

BUT THIS IS NOT GOING AWAY.

AND I THINK IT'S THE RESPONSIBILITY AND INCUMBENT UPON PEOPLE WHO ARE IN ELECTED OFFICE TO LISTEN TO THEIR COMMUNITIES, LISTEN TO THE PEOPLE WHO SAY THEY DO NOT WANT THESE DATA CENTERS.

AND AGAIN, IF THEY WERE SO GOOD AND SO NECESSARY, THE CEOs OF THESE COMPANIES WOULD BE HAPPY TO HAVE THEM BUILT RIGHT NEXT TO THEIR HOMES.

BUT THEY'RE NOT DOING THAT.

>> YEAH, IT'S THE CLASSIC NINBY, ISN'T IT.

LET ME ASK YOU THIS.

CLEARLY AS I SAID, IT'S ALL OVER THE PLACE, BUT MOST ESPECIALLY IN AMERICA, IT IS THE FUTURE.

IT IS THE ECONOMIC, YOU KNOW, THING THAT EVERYBODY SORT OF RALLYING AROUND.

DO YOU --DO YOU HAVE AN ALTERNATIVE?

ARE YOU BASICALLY SAYING THAT AI SHOULDN'T BE SOMETHING THAT THE U. S. PURSUES?

OR DO YOU HAVE SOME KIND OF MITIGATING WAY TO CONTINUE AI IF IT'S CONSIDERED SUCH A GOOD THING FOR THE FUTURE.

OBVIOUSLY MANY PEOPLE DISAGREE.

BUT JUST NOT IN THIS EXTRACTIVE WAY?

>> I THINK IF AI IS GOING TO BE HERE, WE NEED TO ENSURE THAT IT IS NOT EXTRACTIVE AND EXPLOIT I OF THE MOST VULNERABLE PEOPLE AND COMMUNITIES IN OUR COUNTRY.

I'VE DONE WORK WITH A FEW ORGANIZATIONS, INCLUDING THE NAACP, MEMPHIS COMMUNITY AGAINST POLLUTION TO COME UP WITH A FRAMEWORK FOR COMMUNITIES THAT ARE GOING TO FACE DATA CENTERS AND THE CORPORATIONS COULD READ THAT FRAMEWORK AS PUBLIC INFORMATION ABOUT THOU ENGAGE DELIBERATELY IN COMMUNITY WITH COMMUNITY AGREEMENTS, BUILD RENEWABLE ENERGY AND MAKE SURE WE ARE INCLUDED IN THE PROCESS SO THAT OUR UTILITY RATES AREN'T SKYROCKETING, SO THAT OUR COMMUNITIES AREN'T BEING ILLEGALLY POLLUTED IN VIOLATION OF THE CLEAN AIR ACT, AND SO THAT PEOPLE WHO ARE OFTENTIMES NOT EVER INCLUDED WHEN DECISIONS LIKE THIS ARE BEING MADE ARE ACTUALLY BROUGHT TO THE TABLE AND BROUGHT INTO THE CONVERSATION.

THERE IS ALWAYS A WAY TO DO THINGS BETTER THERE SWAY TO DO THINGS WELL.

WE JUST HAVE NOT SEEN THAT THUS FAR.

>> AND LET ME JUST END BY ASKING YOU ABOUT YOUR RACE AND YOUR DISTRICT.

YOU'RE RUNNING FOR CONGRESS.

IN THE NINTH CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICT IN TENNESSEE, WHICH IS A TRADITIONALLY BLACK MAJORITY DISTRICT.

IT'S BEEN SPLIT IN THREE BY THE REPUBLICAN LEGISLATURE WITH ALL THIS GERRYMANDERING.

YOUR NEW DISTRICT IS 58% WHITE, 32% BLACK.

THE INVERSE OF WHAT IT WAS.

DOES THIS RAISE ANY ISSUES FOR YOU?

HOW WILL YOU, YOU KNOW, CORRAL THE ENTIRE VOTE AS YOU SEEK TO RUN FOR THAT DISTRICT FOR CONGRESS?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

WE'RE HAVING AN AMAZING TIME RUNNING FOR CONGRESS.

I WAS BLESSED AND FORTUNATE TO RUN WHEN IT WAS THE ORIGINAL DISTRICT 9.

AND SINCE IT HAS BEEN CHANGED, WE HAVEN'T MISSED A BEAT.

WE'VE BEEN TRAVELING ALL 15 COUNTIES.

I'M LOSING MY VOICE RIGHT NOW BECAUSE WE HAD 15 EVENTS IN THE LAST THREE DAYS.

AND ONE EVENT I'LL JUST TELL YOU IT WAS IN A MAJORITY WHITE COMMUNITY.

AND A LADY PUT IT TOGETHER, AND WE HAD OVER 100 PEOPLE SHOW UP.

AND THERE WERE ONLY FIVE BLACK FOLKS AND 895 WHITE FOLKS.

I WAS IN GILES COUNTY WHERE THE KU KLUX KLAN WAS FOUNDED.

WE HAD 150 PEOPLE SHOWING UP.

I THINK THERE IS A THIRST FOR SOMETHING DIFFERENT IN OUR COUNTRY.

AND REPUBLICANS IN THE STATE OF TENNESSEE ARE ALSO LOOKING FOR A VOICE THAT IS GOING STAND UP FOR THE PEOPLE, RESPECT THE RULE OF LAW, ENSURE THAT MORE VOICES ARE BROUGHT TO THE CONVERSATION, AND THAT WE ARE NOT BEING TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF AND EXPLOITED BY THE ESTABLISHMENT AND THESE CAREER POLITICIANS LIKE THE GUY WHO IS RUNNING ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THIS THING.

WE HAVE HAVE A PARTICULAR MOMENT WE ARE IN TO MAKE SURE EVERY VOICE IN OUR COMMUNITY IS ACTUALLY BEING HEARD AND BRING THAT TO WASHINGTON, D. C. AND THAT'S WHAT I'M HOPING TO DO.

I'VE GOT TO BE HONEST.

THE FIGHT AGAINST DATA CENTERS IS SOMETHING WE'VE BEEN DOING FOR SEVERAL YEARS.

PEOPLE KNOW US FOR THAT WORK.

AND AT LAWRENCEBURG AND IN OTHER PARTS OF OUR STATE, WE'RE HEARING FROM OTHER REPUBLICANS WHO ARE JOINING OUR CAMPAIGN BECAUSE THEY KNOW I'M GOING TO STAND UP FOR THEM.

I'M GOING STAND UP FOR OUR COMMUNITIES AND STAND UP AGAINST THE STATUS QUO AND THE BILLIONAIRES WHO ARE EXPLOITING US.

>> AND LASTLY, IF YOU WIN AND IF THE DEMOCRATS TAKE BACK THE HOUSE, WHAT WILL BE THE PRIORITY IN TERMS OF, YOU KNOW, SEEKING TO PUT A DEMOCRATIC STAMP ON THE NATION, SEEKING ACCOUNTABILITY, AS YOU'VE ALL BEEN TALKING ABOUT, SAYING THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS BEEN GETTING AWAY WITH NOT RESPECTING CONGRESS, ET CETERA.

WHAT WILL YOU ALL DO?

>> I THINK THERE IS FOUR BIG THINGS WE'VE GOT TO DO.

WE'VE GOT TO INCREASE THE MINIMUM WAGE, MAKE SURE WE TAX MILLIONAIRES BECAUSE WE'VE GOT TO BUILD AN ECONOMY THAT WORKS FOR EVERYBODY.

WE NEED TO PASS MEDICARE FOR ALL AND FIGHT WITH ALL WE'VE GOT TO MAKE SURE EVERYONE HAS ACCESS TO HEALTH CARE.

WE HAVE TO MAKE SURE WE HAVE A MORATORIUM THAT STOPS THESE TOXIC DATA CENTERS, PROTECTS OUR PEOPLE'S LIVES, PROTECTS OUR JOBS, OR WORKFORCE IN THE FUTURE, AND THE EFFECT ON DONALD TRUMP IS REAL.

WE HAVE TO TAKE MONEY OUT OF BIG POLITICS.

WE CAN'T LET THE PRESIDENT MAKE MILLIONS OF DOLLARS FROM A PUBLIC POSITION.

AND EVERY CONGRESS AND SENATE MEMBER SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO TRADE STOCKS AND BONDS WHILE THEY'RE IN OFFICE.

WE HAVE TO BRING SOME INTEGRITY BACK TO THE OFFICE AND THE WORK THAT PUBLIC SERVICE IS SUPPOSED TO DO.

>> REPRESENTATIVE PEARSON, THANKS SO MUCH FROM JOINING US FROM MEMPHIS TONIGHT.

> >> ONE OF THE ISSUES THREATENING TO SHAKE UP THE U. S. MIDTERMS, THE FUTURE OF MAIL-IN BALLOTS.

A THIRD OF AMERICANS BALLOTS MAY BE AT RISK.

THE UNITED STATES POSTAL SERVICE IS RUSHING TO LAUNCH A FAULTY NEW DIGITAL SEASON IN LINE WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP'S ORDER FOR MORE FEDERAL CONTROL OVER MAIL-IN VOTING AHEAD OF NOVEMBER.

NOW ACCORDING TO THIS UNNAMED DISCLOSURE, THIS WHISTLE-BLOWER, A SINGLE SCANNING ERROR AMONG TENS OF THOUSANDS OF BALLOTS COULD MEAN NONE WOULD REACH ANY VOTERS.

THIS COMES AS THE SUPREME COURT HAS LIFTED ONE OF TWO INJUNCTIONS BLOCKING THE PRESIDENT'S EXECUTIVE ORDER.

SO WHAT HAPPENS NOW?

DEREK MULLER IS A PROFESSOR OF LAW AT THE UNIVERSITY OF NOTRE DAME, AND HE'S JOINING HARI SREENIVASAN TO DISCUSS THE POTENTIAL IMPACT OF THE SUPREME COURT RULING.

>> CHRISTIANE, THANKS.

DEREK MULLER, THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

WE HAVE NOW EXPERIENCED OVER THE PAST SEVERAL MONTHS A CONVERSATION ABOUT MAIL- IN VOTING THAT MOST PEOPLE THOUGHT WAS SETTLED.

THE PRESIDENT, FOR HIS PART, HAS CALLED IT LOTS OF THINGS, AND WE'LL GO INTO THAT.

BUT HE SIGNED AN EXECUTIVE ORDER.

AND IN THERE, IT SAYS THIS IS THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT'S ROLE AS AN UNAVOIDABLE DUTY UNDER ARTICLE II OF THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES TO ENFORCE FEDERAL LAW WHICH INCLUDES PREVENTING VIOLATIONS OF FEDERAL CRIMINAL LAW AND MAINTAINING PUBLIC CONFIDENCE IN ELECTION OUTCOMES.

PUBLIC CONFIDENCE IN ELECTION OUTCOMES.

WHAT ARE THE MAIN THINGS THAT THIS ORDER DIRECTS STATES TO DO?

>> RIGHT.

SO THE ORDER REALLY HAS TWO COMPONENTS HERE.

ONE PART OF THE ORDER DIRECTS THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY TO GATHER INFORMATION ABOUT CITIZENS WHO WOULD BE POTENTIALLY ELIGIBLE VOTERS AND TO TRANSMIT THOSE LISTS OF CITIZENS TO THE VARIOUS STATES.

AND THAT PART OF THE ORDER DOESN'T REALLY TELL THE STATES TO DO ANYTHING, ALTHOUGH I THINK THERE IS AN IMPLICATION THAT WHEN THEY GET THAT LIST, THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO ACT.

AND IF THEY FAIL TO ACT, THERE MIGHT BE SOME INVESTIGATIONS BEHIND IT.

THE OTHER PART OF THE ORDER, WHICH HAS GOTTEN A LOT MORE OF THE ATTENTION IN RECENT WEEKS HAS BEEN SOME DIRECTIVES TO THE POSTAL SERVICE TO STANDARDIZE THE ABSENTEE BALLOT ENVELOPE FORM TO REQUIRE BAR CODES ON ALL ABSENTEE BALLOT ENVELOPES.

SOME STATES ALREADY REQUIRE THIS, BUT NOT ALL OF THEM.

AND THEN PERHAPS MOST CONTROVERSIALLY BEFORE ANY STATE CAN MAIL OUT ITS ABSENTEE BALLOTS, IT NEEDS TO SEND A LIST OF ALL THE INDIVIDUALS IT INTENDS TO SEND THE BALLOTS TO, THEIR NAME, THE ADDRESS AND THE BAR CODE.

AND ONLY THEN WILL THE POSTAL SERVICE MAIL THOSE BALLOTS OUT ONCE IT HAS THATLESS.

SO THOSE ARE SORT OF THE MAJOR COMPONENTS OF WHAT HAS COME OUT OF THIS RULE.

>> MOST PEOPLE THINK THE EXECUTIVE ORDER IS TRYING TO TELL THE STATES TO DO SOMETHING.

BUT TECHNICALLY, THE PRESIDENT DOESN'T RUN ELECTIONS.

STATES RUN THEIR ELECTIONS, RIGHT?

BUT THE PRESIDENT AND THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH IS IN CHARGE OF DHS AND THE POSTAL SERVICE.

SO IT SEEMS LIKE STRATEGICALLY, THIS IS A DIFFERENT WAY TO TRY TO ACCOMPLISH THE SAME RESULT, WHICH IS TO TRY THE GET THE STATES TO DO WHAT YOU WARMFRONT TO DO.

>> YEAH, THAT'S RIGHT.

THE CONSTITUTION SAYS FOR FEDERAL ELECTIONS, IT'S REALLY LEFT TO THE STATE LEGISLATURES TO COME UP WITH THOSE RULES.

CONGRESS CAN COME IN AND PROVIDE RULES.

AND THERE HAVE BEEN A RANGE OF WAYS OVER THE YEARS, WHETHER IT'S THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT OR THE CIVIL RIGHTS ACT OR THE HELP AMERICA VOTE ACT OR THESE OTHER THINGS WHERE CONGRESS DOES EMPOWER A LOT OF FEDERAL AGENCIES TO ENGAGE IN SOME INVOLVEMENT IN HOW STATES RUN ELECTIONS.

BUT IT STILL IS PRINCIPALLY LEFT TO THE STATES.

THE PRESIDENT FORMALLY HAS NO ROLE IN THAT PROCESS, CAN DIRECT THE AGENCIES TO DO THINGS.

THIS IS WHERE YOU'RE SEEING THAT TENSION, THAT THE PRESIDENT IS DIRECTING THE POSTAL SERVICE, DIRECTING THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY TO ENGAGE ACTS THAT CAN AFFECT THE ELECTIONS EVEN IF HE HAS NO DIRECT AUTHORITY OVER THEM.

SO WE'RE SEEING NOW THIS SORT OF TENSION PLAYING OUT OVER HOW MUCH THE EXECUTIVE CAN DO WITHOUT THAT EXPLICIT CONGRESSIONAL GUIDANCE, BUT SOME IMPLICIT GUIDANCE GIVEN TO THE GENERAL AUTHORITY OF THE POSTAL SERVICE, THE GENERAL AUTHORITY OF THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY, AND HOW MUCH THOSE AGENCIES CAN SORT OF PUT PRESSURE ON THE STATES TO INVESTIGATE THINGS, TO DOUBLE-CHECK THINGS, TO CHANGE THEIR BEHAVIOR, MODIFY THEIR BEHAVIOR GWYNN THIS EXECUTIVE OVERSIGHT.

>> LET'S TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE PROBLEM THAT THEY'RE TRYING TO SOLVE.

THE PRESIDENT HAS GONE OUT OF HIS WAY TO SAY "MAIL-IN VOTING MEANS MAIL-IN CHEATING.

I CALL IT MAIL-IN CHEATING, AND WE GOT TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT ALL. "

THAT WAS HIS QUOTE FROM MARCH OF 2026.

AND JUST FOR OUR AUDIENCE'S REFERENCE POINT, THE PRESIDENT HIMSELF HAS USED MAIL-IN BALLOTS TO VOTE, RIGHT?

SO WHAT'S THE PROBLEM HE IS TRYING TO SOLVE?

>> RIGHT.

SO MILLIONS OF AMERICANS USE ABSENTEE BALLOTS, ESPECIALLY OUR MILITARY AND OVERSEAS PERSONNEL, ESPECIALLY ELDERLY AND SENIOR CITIZENS.

THERE HAS BEEN A PRETTY SIGNIFICANT EXPANSION SINCE COVID FOR A RANGE OF REASONS RELATING TO ABSENTEE BALLOTS.

REALLY, THE CONCERN THAT HE HAS IS THE SUGGESTION THAT WHEN BALLOTS GO OUT, THERE IS A LOSS OF CONTROL FROM THE STATE AND THEY ARE THEN SENT OUT TO INDIVIDUALS WHO COULD FILL THEM OUT ON BEHALF OF SOMEBODY ELSE, OR WHO COULD PRESSURE PEOPLE AT HOME TO SUBMIT THEM.

BALLOT FRAUD IS RARE.

ABSENTEE BALLOT FRAUD HAPPENS.

IT'S BEEN KNOWN TO HAPPEN THERE WAS A CONGRESSIONAL ELECTION IN NORTH CAROLINA IN 2018 THAT WAS THROWN OUT BECAUSE A COUPLE HUNDRED BALLOTS WERE FOUND TO HAVE BEEN CAST UNDER FRAUDULENT SIRVEGS.

BU --CIRCUMSTANCES.

BUT AGAIN, THESE THINGS ARE VERY RARE.

WHAT KINDS OF OVERSIGHT ARE NECESSARY AND APPROPRIATE GIVEN THE LOW RISK THAT WE HAVE FOR THEM.

SO THIS IS THE CONSTANT BACK AND FORTH FOR THE PRESIDENT.

THE RISK IS EXTRAORDINARILY HIGH.

PROBABLY NOT TRUE.

THE QUESTION IS HOW MUCH THAT REMEDY SORT OF FITS THE PROBLEM THAT WE'RE LOOKING AT HERE.

>> OKAY.

SO THE COURTS HAVE GOTTEN INVOLVED BECAUSE STATES IMMEDIATELY CHALLENGED THIS IDEA.

IT'S GONE UP TO THE SUPREME COURT AND BACK DOWN TO SOME FEDERAL LEVELS.

WHERE ARE WE IN THAT?

>> IT'S EXTREMELY COMPLICATED, EXTREMELY FAST-MOVING.

AND WHATEVER I SAY RIGHT NOW MIGHT BE MOOTED IN THE VERY NEAR FUTURE, BUT I'LL GIVE YOU THE LAY OF THE LAND THAT A FEDERAL COURT IN MASSACHUSETTS ENJOINED OPERATION OF THE RULE.

THE SUPREME COURT SEVERAL DAYS AGO SAID WE ARE LIFTING THAT INJUNCTION BECAUSE IT'S TOO EARLY.

WE DON'T KNOW WHAT THE RULE IS ACTUALLY GOING TO BE.

IT'S JUST A PRESIDENTIAL DIRECTIVE AS OPPOSED TO A RULE FROM POSTAL SERVICE.

BUT NOW THE POSTAL SERVICE HAS COME OUT WITH A RULE.

AND A FEDERAL COURT HAS AGAIN ENJOINED IT SAYING, LOOK, YOU ARE AHEAD OF YOUR SKIS, IF YOU WILL.

YOU ARE EXERCISING TOO MUCH AUTHORITY THAT IS NOT GIVEN TO YOU UNDER THE STATUTE POSTAL SERVICE.

YOU CAN'T POINT TO SOMETHING IN THE STATUTE THAT LETS YOU DO THIS.

BUT IT'S UNDER A TEMPORARY RESTRAINING ORDER BECAUSE IT'S HAPPENING SO QUICKLY.

BALLOTS GO OUT IN NORTH CAROLINA THIS FIRST WEEK OF SEPTEMBER.

AND WE ARE IN SEPTEMBER RIGHT NOW.

SO THIS IS HAPPENING ON A VERY COMPRESSED TIMELINE.

THE CASE IS BEING APPEALED.

I ANTICIPATE IT WILL GO TO THE SUPREME COURT IN THE VERY NEAR FUTURE.

AS OF RIGHT NOW, IT'S ON HOLD, BUT YOU NEVER KNOW WITH THE SORT OF DYNAMIC LITIGATION WHAT MIGHT HAPPEN NEXT.

>> THE SUPREME COURT, THE FIRST TIME THEY LOOKED 59 IT, THEY DIDN'T LOOK AT THE MERITS OF WHETHER OR NOT THESE EXECUTIVE ORDERS ARE OVERSTEPPING THEIR BOUNDS.

THEY'RE JUST SAYING WELL, THIS IS THEORETICAL.

THIS ISN'T REAL YET.

NOW IF IT GOES BACK TO THE SUPREME COURT, PEOPLE ARE GOING TO SAY LISTEN, HERE'S THE POSTAL SERVICE.

THEY PUT OUT THEIR GUIDANCE.

>> YES, THIS IS ABSOLUTELY REAL.

AND THE COURT HAS A LINE IN ITS OPINION SAYING WHEN THE ORDER IS ISSUED TELLING STATES HOW TO BEHAVE WITH RESPECT TO THEIR VOTER LIST, OF COURSE THEY HAVE STANDING.

OF COURSE THEY HAVE ABILITY TO CHALLENGE THIS RULE.

SO THEN A LOT WILL FOCUS ON FIRST WHETHER OR NOT THE POSTAL SERVICE HAS THE AUTHORITY IN THE FIRST PLACE.

FINALLY GETTING BACK TO THAT MERITS QUESTION.

AND THEN SECOND, WHETHER OR NOT IT'S TOO CLOSE IN TIME TO THE ELECTION EITHER FOR A COURT TO ISSUE AN ORDER OR FOR THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO TRY TO CHANGE THE RULES OF THE ELECTION.

AGAIN, TENS OF THOUSAND OF ELECTION OFFICIALS THROUGHOUT THE UNITED STATES ARE PRINTING ENVELOPES AND PROCESSING ABSENTEE VOTER APPLICATIONS TO CHANGE HOW THEY'RE BEHAVING RIGHT NOW AT THIS LATE DATE WOULD BE EXTRAORDINARILY DISRUPTIVE.

>> JUSTICE JACKSON HAD SAID IN HER OPINION, "CONTRIBUTING TO ELECTORAL CONFUSION OF THE EVE OF VOTING IN THE NEXT EIGHT WEEKS. "

IS THERE AN OPPORTUNITY IF SOME STATES TRY TO COME UP WITH NEW BALLOTS, OTHER PLACES CAN'T AND WE HAVE THIS MISHMASH?

>> I THINK YOU'VE IDENTIFIED AN IMPORTANT POINT HERE.

IF WE THINK ABOUT ABSENTEE BALLOT ENVELOPES, MAYBE IT MAKES SENSE TO HAVE A STANDARD DESIGN, TO HAVE BAR CODES ON THEM, AS MANY STATES DO.

AND MAYBE THAT COULD HAPPEN IN 2028.

BUT TO THINK ABOUT MAKING THAT HAPPEN FOR 2026 IS FUNDAMENTALLY UNREALISTIC FOR MANY JURISDICTIONS.

VENDORS REQUIRE A LOT MORE LEAD TIME ESPECIALLY IN RURAL AND SMALLER JURISDICTIONS.

IT'S AN EXTRAORDINARY COST AND EXTRAORDINARY TIME CRUNCH.

SO FOR SOME OF THOSE DISSENTING JUSTICES THAT ARE WORRIED ABOUT CHAOS, I WOULD ONLY RESIST IN THE SENSE THAT I DON'T WANT TO OVERSTATE THE CHAOS FROM THE VOTERS' PERSPECTIVE.

I THINK THERE IS A LOT OF CHAOS COMING FROM ELECTION ADMINISTRATORS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO GET THESE ABSENTEE BALLOTS OUT IN TIME.

AND IDEALLY, IF THINGS WORK SMOOTHLY, VOTERS WON'T NOTICE MUCH DIFFERENCE AT ALL.

MAYBE THERE ARE ABSENTEE BALLOTS ARRIVE A COUPLE OF DAYS LATER BUT HOPEFULLY THERE WOULDN'T BE MUCH DISRUPTION.

THE REAL PROBLEMS IS IF THESE RULES, THE POSTAL SERVICE ITSELF CAN'T ADMINISTER.

AND THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF SUGGESTION IN RECENT DAYS THAT THE POSTAL SERVICE IS NOT GOING HAVE THE CAPACITY TO APPROVE ABSENTEE BALLOT ENVELOPES.

IT'S NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO CLEAR LISTS OF MILLIONS OF ABSENTEE VOTERS ACROSS THE 50 STATES AND ACROSS TENS OF THOUSANDS OF ZIP CODES THAT ARE GOING TO HAVE TO BE APPROVING IT.

IT'S GOING TO BE A SIGNIFICANT CHALLENGE TO IMPLEMENT IT.

AND IF THAT DOES HAPPEN, THEN WE MIGHT START TO SEE THE CHAOS HITTING VOTERS.

>> YOU MENTIONED SOMETHING THAT'S INTERESTING, THE WAY THAT DIFFERENT JURISDICTIONS WOULD DEAL WITH IT.

I WOULD IMAGINE A CITY LIKE NEW YORK OR A CITY LIKE LOS ANGELES HAS A MUCH LARGER BUDGET TO TRY TO DEAL WITH THESE POPULATIONS.

BUT LET'S TAKE A SMALL RURAL COUNTY SOMEWHERE.

FIRST OF ALL, WOULD THEY WANT TO SPEND THEIR MONEY, IF THEY EVEN HAD IT?

>> WE HAVE A VERY LARGE NATION WITH A VERY DIVERSE APPROACH TO HOW IT ADMINISTERS ELECTIONS.

ADMINISTERING ELECTION IN THE BRONX LOOKS VERY DIFFERENT THAN ADMINISTERING THE ELECTION IN NOME, ALASKA.

IT'S GOING TO BE VERY DIFFERENT APPROACHES TO IT.

DISTANCES MATTER.

BUDGETS MATTER.

THE NATURE OF YOUR VOTERS MATTER, HOW LIKELY THEY ARE TO SHOW UP IN PERSON OR HOW FAR THEY WOULD HAVE TO TRAVEL TO VOTE IN PERSON.

WHAT'S HAPPENING IN HOLESVILLE, MISSOURI IS GOING TO LOOK DIFFERENT THAN WHAT'S HAPPENING IN LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA.

SOME STATES CAN PROBABLY ADAPT MORE EASILY.

SOME ARE ALREADY PUTTING BAR CODES ON THEIR ABSENTEE BALLOT ENVELOPES.

OTHERS HAVE PREFERRED OTHER WAYS.

IN VERY RURAL JURISDICTIONS ONLY HAVE A HANDFUL OF ABSENTEE BALLOTS THEY'RE MAILING ANY WAY.

SO THEY'RE NOT GOING TO GET UP TO THE HOST HIGH- TECH WAYS OF DELIVERING THOSE BALLOTS.

ONE BENEFIT OF OUR SYSTEM IS THE DECENTRALIZED FLEXIBILITY THAT WE GIVE TO THOSE OFFICIALS.

AND REALLY, ONLY WHEN CONGRESS STEPS IN WITH ITS REASONED NATIONWIDE DELIBERATION IN THINKING ABOUT HOW THESE CHANGES ARE GOING TO BE IMPLEMENTED LIKE THE HELP AMERICA VOTE ACT OF 2002, DO WE THEN STEP IN AND PROVIDE SOME OF THAT GUIDANCE AND FLEXIBILITY TO HOW JURISDICTIONS DO IT.

WITH THIS EXECUTIVE ORDER, NOT SO MUCH FLEXIBILITY.

>> WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT LISTS, IT AUTOMATICALLY SETS OFF ALARM BELLS FOR LOTS OF PEOPLE.

HOW WAS THE LIST GENERATED IN THE FIRST PLACE?

HOW CURRENT IS IT?

HOW RELIABLE IS IT?

WHAT IS THE DATA SOURCES GOING INTO IT, WILL EVERYBODY HAVE ACCESS TO THE LIST AT THE SAME TIME?

AND WHAT WILL THEY DO WITH THE LIST.

WHAT DO THEY CROSS-CHECK IT AGAINST.

THE LIST OF CITIZENS THAT THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY BY THIS EXECUTIVE ORDER IS SUPPOSED TO HAND OUT TO STATES, WHAT ARE THE CHALLENGES WITH IMPLEMENTING SOMETHING LIKE THIS?

>> I IMAGINE IF YOU'RE A JURISDICTION LOOKING AT THIS AND TRYING TO ACT IN GOOD FAITH, YOU SAY THIS IS ONE MORE PIECE OF EVIDENCE THAT WE USE WITH OUR LIST MAINTENANCE PROCESS IN THE STATE.

MAYBE WE CAN USE IT ON SOME OF OUR DOWNTIME IN EARLY 2027 TO SAY LET'S TAKE A LOOK AT THE LIST AND WE FIND PEOPLE WHO ARE LISTED AS CITIZENS, THAT'S GREAT.

BUT IF YOU'RE NOT ON THE LIST, IT SHOULDN'T BE PRESUMED THAT YOU'RE NOT A CITIZEN.

AGAIN, THERE ARE MISMATCHES AND INCONSISTENCIES.

WHEN YOU SEND TO IT ONE STATE, IT'S PROBABLY OUT OF DATE THE DAY YOU SEND IT BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE HAVE DIED OR SOME PEOPLE HAVE MOVED OUT OF THE JURISDICTION OR WHATEVER IT MIGHT BE.

SO IT'S ALWAYS A CHALLENGE.

BUT I THINK THAT THE REAL CONCERN IS THAT IF YOU SEND JURISDICTIONS AN INCOMPLETE LIST, WHICH THIS ASSUREDLY WOULD BE, IS THERE AN EXPECTATION THEN THAT SOME PEOPLE WILL THINK IT'S THE COMPLETE LIST IF YOU ARE NOT ON THE LIST, YOU ARE NOT A CITIZEN, THAT STATES NEED TOE TAKE ACTION AS A RESULT OF IT.

I THINK THAT'S THE GREATEST CHALLENGE.

IT CAN BE USEFUL AS DATA POINT, A PIECE OF INFORMATION THAT SUPPLEMENTS WHAT YOU'RE DOING IN THE STATE.

BUT AT ITS WORSE, IT CAN SPIRAL TO MORE CONSPIRACIES ABOUT HOW NONCITIZENS ARE ON YOUR VOTER ROLES.

>> OORDER ALSO TELLS THE ATTORNEY GENERAL OF THE UNITED STATES TO PRIORITIZE IN INVESTIGATING AND PROSECUTING ELECTION OFFICIALS AND OTHERS WHO VIOLATE FEDERAL ELECTION LAW.

AND, AGAIN, I THINK EVERYBODY WOULD AGREE THAT IF THERE ARE VIOLATIONS OF ELECTION LAW, THAT PEOPLE SHOULD BE PROSECUTED.

BUT I WONDER IF THERE ARE CIVIL SERVANTS, IF THERE ARE NONPARTISAN FOLKS WHO ARE VOLUNTEERS WHO MIGHT BE A CHILLING EFFECT FROM THIS.

>> YES.

I THINK PEOPLE UNDERESTIMATE HOW MUCH WE RELY ON VOLUNTEER AND LOW PAID VOLUNTEERS REALLY TO WORK THE POLLS ON ELECTION DAY TO ADMINISTER ELECTIONS.

THEY'RE HUMAN BEINGS AND THEY MAKE MISTAKES, BUT THEY DO THE BEST THEY CAN.

MANY JURISDICTIONS TRY TO HAVE BIPARTISAN OVERSIGHT OF WHAT'S HAPPENING DELIBERATELY FOR THAT REASON.

I'VE WORKED POLLS IN CALIFORNIA AND IOWA.

AND WHAT HAPPENS WE TRY TO HAVE A REPUBLICAN AND A DEMOCRAT EACH SIGNOFF ON THE VOTING MACHINES THE BEGINNING OF THE DAY AND THE END OF THE DAY AND THE ELECTION DAY TAPE TO MAKE SURE EVERYTHING LOOKS GOOD.

SO THERE IS A LOT OF OVERSIGHT.

BUT WHEN YOU STOP IN AND SUGGEST THERE IS SOMETHING MAYBE NEFARIOUS THAT ELECTION OFFICIALS ARE DOING OR SAYING THEY NEED TO BE PROSECUTED, THERE IS THAT RISK THAT ELECTION OFFICIALS SAY LISTEN, I CAN QUIT AND FIND A BETTER JOB ELSEWHERE THAT HAS MORE STABLE HOURS THAN TRYING TO WORK AROUND THE CLOCK FOR THE NEXT FEW MONTHS.

IT IS A MATERIAL RISK.

I THINK THERE ARE MANY THAT HOPE THAT IT'S JUST BLUSTER FROM THE ADMINISTRATION.

IT'S SENDING OUT LETTERS.

IT'S SENDING OUT THINGS THAT ARE NOT GOING TO LEAD TO ANY ACTUAL PROSECUTIONS.

SO FAR IN THESE TWO YEARS OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF INVESTIGATIONS AND BLUSTER WITHOUT THAT PROSECUTION, WITHOUT THE ACTUAL CARRY-THROUGH.

BUT I THINK THE LOOMING QUESTION IS WOULD THERE BE A CARRY-THROUGH ONE DAY.

>> THERE IS ALSO SPECULATION THAT THIS IS TARGETING DEMOCRATS SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE THERE HAVE BEEN THESE BIG SHIFTS IN WHO USES --I REMEMBER COVERING SOME OF MY FIRST ELECTIONS AND IT WAS LOPSIDEDLY OLDER VOTERS FOR SURE, BUT ALSO REPUBLICAN VOTERS THAT USE THE MAIL.

AND NOW ACCORDING TO THE 2024 M. I. T. ELECTION DATA SCIENCE LAB, IT SAYS THE PARTISAN DIVIDE IN MAIL- IN VOTING CONTINUED WITH MORE DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS UTILIZING THIS METHOD WITH 37% OF DEMOCRATS REPORTING VOTING BY MAIL COMPARED TO 24% OF REPUBLICANS.

THAT'S A DECREASE FROM 60% FOR DEMOCRATS AND 32% FOR REPUBLICANS BACK IN 2020.

THESE SHIFTS ARE SIGNIFICANT, AND THEY'RE TRENDING OVER TIME.

>> RIGHT.

SO I THINK THERE IS A COUPLE OF THINGS TO HIGHLIGHT WITH THE AGGREGATE STATISTICS.

MANY IS MANY JURISDICTIONS LIKE CALIFORNIA AND WASHINGTON HAVE LEANED VERY HEAVILY INTO ALL MAIL OR ALL ABSENTEE BALLOT ADMINISTRATION OF ELECTIONS.

SO IN ONE SENSE, THAT CAN SKEW THE NUMBERS A LITTLE BIT IN THE AGGREGATE TO SAY DEMOCRATS ARE USING IT AT A HIGHER RATE.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME, I THINK YOU'RE RIGHT.

AFTER 2020 AND COVID, THE SORT OF DECISION DO I VOTE REMOTELY OR IN PERSON BECAME THIS SORT OF PROXY FIGHT WELL, IS IT SAFE TO GO OUT OR SHOULD I STAY HOME AND TRY TO PROTECT THOSE WHO ARE IMMUNOCOMPROMISED AND NOT TRY TO SPREAD THE VIRUS.

AND UNFORTUNATELY, SINCE 2020, WE'VE CONTINUED TO HAVE THAT UNUSUAL DIVIDE IN HOW WE APPROACH ELECTIONS AND CASTING OF BALLOTS.

AND NOW REPUBLICANS ARE VERY SKEPTICAL OF IT.

AS YOU POINT OUT, YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

25 YEARS AGO YOU WOULD SAID THE MILITARY, THE ELDERLY, THE RELIABLY REPUBLICAN VOTERS WOULD HAVE HEAVILY RELIED ON ABSENTEE BALLOTS.

IT'S SORT OF FLIPPED OVERNIGHT.

I THINK THE QUESTION GOING FORWARD IS HOW MANY OF THOSE BALLOTS ARE JUST MATTERS OF CONVENIENCE AND PEOPLE CAN GO TO THE POLLING PLACE ON ELECTION DAY IF THEY'RE WORRIED ABOUT IT VERSUS HOW MANY TRANSLATE INTO BALLOTS THAT ARE NOT RECEIVED AT THE END OF THE DATE.

AND AGAIN, HOPEFULLY, FROM AN ELECTION ADMINISTRATION STANDPOINT, WE DON'T SEE MANY HICCUPS AT ALL, AND THE VOTERS EXPERIENCE MAYBE A COUPLE OF DELAYS IN THE POSTAL SYSTEM WILL LOOK THE SAME ON ELECTION DAY.

>> SO RIGHT NOW, IF YOU HAPPEN TO LIVE IN A JURISDICTION WHERE THEY ARE GOING TO TRY TO GO THROUGH SOME OF THESE SORT OF BALLOT CHANGES OR PLANNING ON IT, WHAT CAN YOU EXPECT AS A VOTER?

>> SO AS A VOTER, HOPEFULLY YOU WOULD EXPECT NOTHING.

THERE WOULD BE NO CHANGE TO YOU.

MAYBE THE ABSENTEE BALLOT COMES TO YOU AND LOOKS A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT.

MAYBE IT COMES A LITTLE BIT LATER BECAUSE THE LIST HAD TO BE CLEARED BY THE POSTAL SERVICE, OR THERE WAS SOME HICCUPS IN THAT HAPPENING.

SO IDEALLY, FOR THE VAST MAJORITY OF VOTERS YOU WOULD NOTICE NOTHING EXCEPT A MARGINAL DELAY AND WE CAN ATTRIBUTE THAT TO THE SLUGGISHNESS OF THE POSTAL SYSTEM IN THE LAST DECADE.

I THINK THE REAL CONCERNS COMES IN THE WEEKS AHEAD IF THE SYSTEM DOES GO FORWARD.

RIGHT NOW IT'S ENJOINED.

BUT IF IT DOES GO FORWARD, IT'S IMPLEMENTED.

AND IN THE POSTAL SERVICE CAN'T KEEP UP, AND IF STATES CAN'T SUBMIT THINGS THAT GET CLEARED AND IF THE POSTAL SERVICE IS NOT ABLE TO HAND OUT BALLOTS ON TIME IN A TIMELY FASHION, THAT'S WHERE THINGS GET REALLY DIFFICULT.

>> WHAT IS THE LIKELIHOOD THAT THE SUPREME COURT GETS INVOLVED AGAIN, CONSIDERING HOW URGENT THE MATTER IS, HOW THERE ARE DIFFERENT JURISDICTIONS AND KIND OF DIFFERENT STATES OF PLAY HERE, AND WE HAVE AN ELECTION JUST EIGHT WEEKS LESS AWAY.

>> YEAH, UNFORTUNATELY, THE SUPREME COURT IS GOING TO HAVE TO WEIGH THEM.

BECAUSE WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN IS THERE IS THIS INTENSE LITIGATION.

IT'S ON APPEAL RIGHT NOW IN FRONT OF THE FIRST CIRCUIT.

THERE IS ANOTHER CASE IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, AND THAT MIGHT GO UP TO THE APPELLATE COURT IN D. C. AS WELL.

AND WHICHEVER PARTY LOSES IS GUARANTEED TO GO TO THE UNITED STATES SUPREME COURT AND ASK THEM TO INTERVENE.

AND WHATEVER THE SUPREME COURT DOES, WHETHER IT REFUSES TO INTERVENE OR DOES INTERVENE INVOLVES THE COURT.

EVEN INACTION IS A FORM OF ACTION.

EACH SILENCE IS A FORM OF GETTING INVOLVED IN THIS DISPUTE.

IT'S AN UNFORTUNATE POSITION WE FIND OURSELVES ON THE EVE OF THE ELECTION THAT THIS LITIGATION, WHICH IS GETTING PUSHED SO LATE IN THE DAY FOR A VARIETY OF REASONS OUTSIDE OF THE SUPREME COURT'S CONTROL, WILL NOW BE PUT ON THE SUPREME COURT'S DOORSTEP THE EVE OF THE ELECTION.

>> PROFESSOR OF LAW AT THE UNIVERSITY OF NOTRE DAME DEREK MULLER, THIS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> SO IMPORTANT TO PAY ATTENTION TO DEMOCRATIC PROCESS.

> >> AND FINALLY, AS RUSSIA CONTINUES TO MERCILESSLY STRIKE UKRAINE, IT'S NOT JUST INNOCENT PEOPLE WHO ARE ENDURING SLEEPLESS NIGHTS.

DOMESTIC ANIMALS ARE ALSO BEARING THE BRUNT OF THIS WAR.

THESE COWS, CHICKENS, CATS AND DOGS ALL LIVE IN THE FARM OF UKRAINIAN ANATOLY ZUKO IN KHARKIV.

BUT ALONGSIDE OF THEIR OWNER, THEY'VE HAD TO PACK UP ALL OF THEIR BELONGINGS AS WELL AS RUSSIAN DRONES CLOSE IN ON THEIR PHONE.

VOLUNTEERS OF U ANIMALS, A UKRAINIAN RIGHTS ORGANIZATION HELPED PREPARE THEM FOR THE LONG ROAD AHEAD.

ANATOLY AND HIS WIFE WILL BE MOVING TO WESTERN UKRAINE.

RESPITE FOR THEM MAYBE, BUT SURELY SOME OF THE ANIMALS ARE DESTINED FOR THE FAMILY DINING TABLE ANY WAY.

> >> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO KNOW WHAT'S COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.

ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANKS FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE FROM LONDON.