>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO. "

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> OPERATION RUN ANNAPOLIS HAND TAKEN OVER 2100 CRIMINALS OFF OUR STREETS.

>> OUT OF SIGHT, OUT OF MIND?

I.C.E.

ARRESTS SERVED ACROSS AMERICA.

IMMIGRATION EXPERT AARON REICHLIN-MELNICK ON THE HIDDEN CRACKDOWN.

> >> THEN -- >> WE LIVE IN A REGION IN WHICH WARFARE KNOWS NO BORDERS.

CRISIS IN ONE LAND WILL SPILL INTO THE SURROUNDING NATIONS.

>> A REGION FORGED IN THE CAULDRON OF CONFLICT.

AS THE WAR GRINDS ON, SIMON SEBAG-MONTEFIORE LOOKS BACK AT THE FORCES THAT MADE THE MODERN MIDDLE EAST AND STILL SHAPE IT TODAY.

> >> ALSO AHEAD -- >> THE SAME BULLET THAT WOULD KILL ME IN UPSTATE NEW YORK, I WOULD SURVIVE IN MIDTOWN MANHATTAN.

>> THE AMERICAN WAY OF KILLING.

MALCOLM GLADWELL'S NEW BOOK CHALLENGES WHAT WE KNOW ABOUT GUN VIOLENCE.

HE TELLS HARI SREENIVASAN WHY RETHINKING THE PROBLEM COULD HELP AMERICA SOLVE IT.

>> "AMANPOUR & CO. "

IS MADE POSSIBLE BY --THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS CANDACE KING WEIR THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND CHARLES ROSENBLUM MONIQUE SCHOEN WARSHAW KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA IN NEW YORK, SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

THIS SUMMER HAS SEEN A MASSIVE SURGE IN ARRESTS BY U. S. CUSTOMS ENFORCEMENT REACHING NEAR RECORD HIGHS IN ALMOST EVERY STATE.

IN AUGUST ALONE, I. C. E. MADE NEARLY 51,000 ARRESTS.

BUT UNLIKE PREVIOUS CRACKDOWNS, THIS ONE IS FAR MORE WIDESPREAD, ATTRACTING LESS ATTENTION AND FEWER PROTESTS.

MOST OF THOSE ARRESTED HAVE NEVER BEEN CHARGED OR CONVICTED OF A CRIME.

MEANWHILE, PRESIDENT TRUMP SAYS HIS IMMIGRATION POLICIES ARE WORKING, PARTICULARLY AT THE SOUTHERN BORDER.

>> I GOT ELECTED BECAUSE OF THE BORDER.

AND NOW BECAUSE IT'S SO GOOD, ONE OF MY PEOPLE WHO IS FANTASTIC SAID, SIR, THE PEOPLE DON'T CARE ABOUT THE BORDER ANYMORE.

>> AND NOW I. C. E. IS PREPARING TO EXPAND ITS DETENTION CAPACITY TO 100,000 BEDS.

SO WHAT DOES THIS NEW PHASE OF TRUMP'S IMMIGRATION CRACKDOWN LOOK LIKE?

AARON REICHLIN- MELNICK IS A SENIOR FELLOW AT THE IMMIGRATION COUNCIL, AND HE JOINS ME FROM WASHINGTON.

AARON, GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN.

SO AS WE NOTED THERE IN THE INTRODUCTION, I. C. E. ARRESTED OVER 50,000 PEOPLE IN THE MONTH OF AUGUST ALONE, YET WE'RE SEEING FEWER HEADLINES ABOUT IT, FEWER NATIONAL PROTESTS.

SO WHAT HAS CHANGED IN HOW THESE OPERATIONS HAVE BEEN CONDUCTED?

AND DOES THAT MAKE THEM EVEN MORE DIFFICULT TO SCRUTINIZE AND ANALYZE?

>> I THINK ONE MAJOR SHIFT IS THAT THE ADMINISTRATION HAS ABANDONED THE STRATEGY THAT IT CARRIED OUT LAST YEAR UNDER SECRETARY NOEM OF TARGETING LARGE CITIES FOR MASSIVE SCALE OPERATIONS WHERE THOUSANDS OF FEDERAL AGENTS DEPLOYED IN A CITY WITH THE INTENT OF CARRYING OUT OPERATIONS OVER THE COURSE OF A MONTH.

INSTEAD, WHAT THEY ARE DOING IS TAKING THE RESOURCES THAT THEY NOW HAVE, THOUSANDS OF NEW OFFICERS HIRED AND EXPANDING OUT ACROSS THE COUNTRY, GOING TO SUBURBS, RURAL AREAS AND PLACES WITHOUT THE SAME LEVEL OF SCRUTINY TO ROUND UP PEOPLE WHO ARE MORE LIKELY TO HAVE NO CRIMINAL RECORD AND ARE THEREFORE LESS VISIBLE.

IN MANY WAYS, THEY'RE GOING AFTER THE LOWEST HANGING FRUIT, PEOPLE THAT THEY ALREADY KNOW THE LOCATION AND ADDRESS OF, AND THEY CAN GO IN AND GET IN AND GET OUT QUICKLY WITHOUT GETTING THE KIND OF ATTENTION AND PUSHBACK THAT THEY DID LAST YEAR.

>> SO WHAT'S DRIVING THEIR PRIORITIES IN THE POLICY ITSELF HERE?

BECAUSE THE PRESIDENT DURING HIS CAMPAIGN IN 2024 AND IN THE EARLY MONTHS OF HIS ADMINISTRATION, AS WELL AS HIS AIDES HAVE CONSISTENTLY SAID THAT THEY ARE GOING AFTER THE DEADLIEST, THE MOST DANGEROUS OF DANGEROUS PEOPLE AND IMMIGRANTS.

AS WE NOTED, MOST OF THESE PEOPLE WHO THEY'VE DETAINED DON'T HAVE CRIMINAL RECORDS, AND YET THE NUMBERS CONTINUE TO GROW.

SO IS IT ABOUT --IS IT ABOUT SENDING AWAY THE MOST DANGEROUS OF THESE PEOPLE OR IS IT JUST A NUMBERS-BASED POLICY?

>> IT IS JUST A NUMBERS-BASED POLICY.

AND WE CAN LOOK AT THE DATA ITSELF TO SEE WHAT'S HAPPENED.

BEFORE PRESIDENT TRUMP TOOK OFFICE, MORE THAN 80% OF ALL OF THE PEOPLE ARRESTED BY I. C. E. HAD SOME FORM OF INTERACTION WITH A CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM.

EITHER A PRIOR CONVICTION OR SOME FORM OF PENDING CHARGES.

BUT STARTING IN JULY, REALLY, AS THIS NEW SURGE BEGAN, WE ARE NOW SEEING A MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE BEING ARRESTED HAVE NO CRIMINAL RECORD WHATSOEVER.

AND THIS IS PROBABLY A FIRST FOR THE AGENCY SINCE IT CAME INTO EXISTENCE IN 2003, BECAUSE IN THE PAST, THE AGENCY HAS ALWAYS PRIORITIZED PEOPLE WHO HAVE SOME INTERACTION WITH THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM.

NOW THE NUMBER ONE GOAL APPEARS TO JUST BE INCREASING ARREST NUMBERS MONTH AFTER MONTH.

>> I'D LIKE TO PLAY SOUND THAT THE VICE PRESIDENT RECENTLY SAID IN RESPONSE TO THIS CLAIM STILL DEFENDING THAT THE GOAL HERE IS TO GO AFTER THE MOST DANGEROUS OF THESE MIGRANTS.

>> IF YOU, LET'S SAY, HAVE A DSH AGENT AND THAT GUY CAN DEPORT ONE PERSON THAT DAY.

HE CAN GO AND DEPORT A VIOLENT CRIMINAL OR A PERSON WHO COMMITTED A VIOLENT CRIME, OF COURSE WE'RE GOING TO PRIORITIZE THE VIOLENT CRIMINALS.

WE'VE ALREADY GOTTEN NORTH OF THREE MILLION PEOPLE OUT IN JUST 18 MONTHS.

AGAIN, WE HAVE PRIORITIZED VIOLENT CRIMINALS.

BUT NOBODY WHO HAS COME INTO THE UNITED STATES ILLEGALLY SHOULD REMAIN IN THE UNITED STATES.

THAT REMAINS OUR POLICY.

>> SO DO THE NUMBERS AND TACTICS BACK THAT UP, WHAT WE JUST HEARD FROM THE VICE PRESIDENT?

>> THEY DO NOT.

AND IRONICALLY, WHAT HE WAS DESCRIBING WAS EFFECTIVELY THE PRIORITIZATION POLICY OF PRESIDENT BIDEN AND PRESIDENT OBAMA BEFORE HIM, AN ENFORCEMENT PRIORITY SYSTEM THAT SAID I. C. E. IS GOING TO USE ITS LIMITED RESOURCES TO GO AFTER PEOPLE WITH SERIOUS VIOLENT OFFENSES FIRST AND THEN OTHER SORT OF THREATS TO NATIONAL SECURITY, RECENT BORDER CROSSERS SECOND, AND REALLY ONLY LAST GO AFTER PEOPLE WHO ARE JUST UNDOCUMENTED AND LIVING HERE WHO HAVE NEVER HAD ANY INTERACTION WITH THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM.

BUT I. C. E. IS NOT PRIORITIZING PEOPLE WITH VIOLENT OFFENSES.

IN TOTAL, SINCE TRUMP TOOK OFFICE, THE DATA SHOWS US THAT ONLY 6% OF PEOPLE ARRESTED HAVE A VIOLENT CRIMINAL CONVICTION.

AND THAT NUMBER IS DROPPING.

IN JULY, THAT FELL TO 4% BECAUSE THE AGENCY IS EXPANDING ITS GRASP TOWARDS OTHER POPULATIONS.

>> HOW LONG DO WE EXPECT THE SURGE TO CONTINUE?

IS IT SOMETHING THE PRESIDENT OR YOU THINK THE ADMINISTRATION IS HOPING TO DO UP UNTIL THE MIDTERMS?

OR GIVEN THE AMOUNT OF MONEY ALLOCATED TO BOTH DHS AND I.C.E.

IN THE MOST RECENT SUPPLEMENT A.M., IS THERE REASON TO BELIEVE THIS IS MORE OF A PERMANENT AGENDA?

>> THIS IS LIKELY TO BE THE NEW NORM.

LAST YEAR CONGRESS GAVE I. C. E.

$75 BILLION TO CARRY OUT IMMIGRATION ENFORCEMENT IN THE INTERIOR.

$45 BILLION OF THAT WENT TO DETENTION.

$30 BILLION WENT TO HIRING AND INCREASING RESOURCES FOR INTERNAL OPERATIONS.

ALREADY ACCORDING TO "THE NEW YORK TIMES," 8,000 NEW OFFICERS HAVE BEEN HIRED BY I.C.E., AND THEY ARE NOW PLANNING TO HIRE AN ADDITIONAL 5,000, WHICH MEANS THAT WE SHOULD EXPECT TO SEE THIS OPERATION CONTINUE TO INCREASE IN SCALE AS THE NEXT YEAR OR TWO GOES ON.

>> WE KNOW THAT THERE HAD BEEN AN INCREASED AMOUNT OF SCRUTINY OBVIOUSLY FROM DEMOCRATS, BUT EVEN FROM SOME REPUBLICANS GIVEN THE SCENES WE SAW PLAY OUT IN MAJOR CITIES, MINNEAPOLIS AND IN MAINE OVER THE COURSE OF THE LAST YEAR AND A HALF.

AND WHAT THE COUNTRY, WHAT CONGRESS WAS TOLD, WHAT SOME REPUBLICANS WERE TOLD IN EXCHANGE FOR THEIR SUPPORT WAS THE ADDED MONEY WOULD GO TO TRAINING, TO BODY CAM VIDEOS, ARE WE SEEING THAT TRANSLATE TO THOSE SPECIFIC ITEMS?

>> WELL, THE AGENCY SAYS THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE BODY CAMS DEPLOYED SOON BUT THEY'VE BEEN SAYING THAT FOR MONTHS.

THE RECENT SHOOTING OF WILBUR IN TEXAS WAS FROM AN OFFICER THAT W. H. O. DIDN'T HAVE HIS BODY CAMERA ON.

TRAINING REMAINS A VERY SERIOUS ONE.

IN ITS SPEED, I. C. E. HIRED THOUSANDS OF OFFICERS AND PUT THEM ON THE STREETS, GIVING THEM A BADGE AND A GUN BEFORE THEY COMPLETED FORMAL BACKGROUND CHECKS.

THAT RESULTED IN MANY PEOPLE BEING HIRED WHO SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN.

IN THE PAST FEW MONTHS, I. C. E. HAS ACTUALLY FIRED HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE THEY PUT INTO THE FIELD BECAUSE IT TURNS OUT THOSE PEOPLE SHOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN HIRED IN THE FIRST PLACE.

AND AS I. C. E. CONTINUES TO EXPAND ITS HIRING OVER THE NEXT YEAR, WE CAN EXPECT SIMILAR PROBLEMS TO EMERGE.

>> CAN YOU EXPLAIN THE DIFFERENCE IN PERHAPS TRAINING AND REQUIREMENTS FROM A POLICE OFFICER IN ONE OF THESE CITIES VERSUS AN I. C. E. AGENT AND WHY WE CONTINUE TO SEE EVEN SOME ALARM FROM LOCAL LAW ENFORCEMENT AS TO THE TACTICS THAT SOME OF THESE I. C. E. OFFICIALS HAVE DISPLAYED.

>> I THINK ONE KEY CHANGE HAS BEEN THE LENGTH.

ONCE TRUMP TOOK OFFICE, I. C. E. ACTUALLY SLASHED THE TIME THAT OFFICERS GOT FOR TRAINING.

AND IMMIGRATION LAW AS WELL IS AN AREA WHERE IN THE PAST OFFICERS WOULD GET MULTIPLE DAYS WORTH OF TRAINING AND IMMIGRATION LAW TO MAKE SURE THEY UNDERSTAND IT.

THAT TRAINING HAS BEEN CUT SIGNIFICANTLY, AND WE'VE HAD WHISTLE- BLOWER REPORTS FROM I. C. E. OFFICERS WHO WORKED AT THE FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT TRAINING CENTER WHO SAID WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THIS FACILITY, THE TRAINING THAT OFFICERS ARE GETTING IS INADEQUATE.

I THINK THAT HAS BEEN A SIGNIFICANT CAUSE OF SOME OF THESE VIRAL VIDEOS THAT WE'RE SEEING WHERE I. C. E. OFFICERS APPEAR TO BE BLATANTLY DISREGARDING THE LAW.

AND YOU'VE SEEN A LOT OF PUSHBACK FROM CONGRESSIONAL DEMOCRATS WHO ARE DEMANDING THAT I. C. E. RETURN THE TRAINS TO WHAT IT EXISTED PRIOR TO PRESIDENT TRUMP TAKING OFFICE.

>> ANOTHER QUESTION THAT COMES UP IS WHAT EXACT LEGAL PROTECTIONS DO THESE DEFENDANTS HAVE.

CNN WITNESSED CHILDREN FACING DEPORTATION PROCEEDINGS WITHOUT ATTORNEYS, INCLUDING A 13-YEAR- OLD BOY WHO BROKE DOWN WHEN ASKED WHETHER HE WANTED TO LEAVE VOLUNTARILY OR RECEIVE A REMOVAL ORDER.

I DON'T EVEN KNOW THAT A 13- YEAR-OLD WOULD UNDERSTAND THAT KIND OF QUESTION.

THE ADMINISTRATION SAYS THAT IT REMAINS COMMITTED TO LEGAL REPRESENTATION FOR CHILDREN.

HOW DO YOU RECONCILE THAT PROMISE WITH WHAT'S ACTUALLY BEING REPORTED AND HAPPENING?

>> THAT'S ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION EFFECTIVELY SAYING ONE THING TO THE PUBLIC AND THEN DOING A DIFFERENT THING IN PRACTICE.

LEGAL REPRESENTATION FOR CHILDREN HAS BEEN A CHALLENGE FOR YEARS.

AND DURING THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, CONGRESS FOR THE VERY FIRST TIME ACTUALLY FUNDED LEGAL REPRESENTATION FOR CHILDREN, ALLOWING MORE ATTORNEYS TO COME FORWARD AND HELP REPRESENT SMALL LITTLE CHILDREN FACING REMOVAL IN IMMIGRATION COURT.

BUT WHEN PRESIDENT TRUMP TOOK OFFICE, THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION ACTUALLY SLASHED THOSE CONTRACTS, ENDING THEM AND FORCING CHILDREN TO BE ABANDONED BY THEIR LAWYERS, FORCING LAWYERS TO GIVE UP REPRESENTATION.

AND IN RECENT MONTHS, THEY'VE HANDED THAT CONTRACT TO A POLITICALLY CONNECTED ALLY TO THE PRESIDENT.

AND IT'S UNCLEAR WHETHER AND WHEN THEY'RE GOING RESUME THE KIND OF LEGAL REPRESENTATION THAT CHILDREN WERE GETTING UP TO THE TIME THAT TRUMP TOOK OFFICE.

>> THE ADMINISTRATION THE PRESIDENT IN PARTICULAR SPENDS A LOT OF TIME AND ENERGY FOCUSED ON WHAT THEY SAY IS A HUGE NUMBER OF ILLEGAL UNDOCUMENTED PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY WHO WILL THEN GO TO THE VOTING POLLS COME THE MIDTERMS.

AND THAT HAS BEEN SOMETHING THE PRESIDENT HAS BEEN USING TO JUSTIFY SOME OF THE NEW LAWS THAT HE'S TRYING TO PASS THROUGH CONGRESS, THAT THE REPUBLICANS CAN'T EVEN BACK AT THIS POINT, HE CAN'T GET ENOUGH SUPPORT FOR THAT.

BUT GEARING UP FOR THE MIDTERMS, THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY HAD POSTED THIS ON X. SANCTUARY POLITICIANS CAN TRY TO CLAIM THAT VOTER FRAUD ISN'T HAPPENING, BUT IT'S VERY REAL.

IT IS A SERIOUS THREAT TO OUR COUNTRY.

THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION WILL ALWAYS PROTECT THE INTEGRITY OF OUR ELECTION SYSTEMS SO THAT ONLY AMERICAN CITIZENS ARE ELECTING AMERICAN LEADERS.

DO THE NUMBERS BACK UP THOSE CLAIMS?

>> THEY DO NOT.

AND I WANT TO GIVE TWO EXAMPLES TO SHOW WHY.

SECRETARY MULLEN CLAIMED AT ONE POINT WHEN PRESIDENT TRUMP GAVE A PRESS CONFERENCE ABOUT NONCITIZEN VOTING THAT THEY HAD FLAGGED 16,000 POTENTIAL NONCITIZEN VOTERS IN THE STATE OF NEVADA.

AND WHEN NEVADA WENT TO THEM AND SAID CAN YOU GIVE US THESE NAMES AND INFORMATION, THEY SAID WELL, WE ADMIT IT'S NOT ACTUALLY 16,000 PEOPLE.

IT'S ACTUALLY 185 PEOPLE THAT WE THINK FOR CERTAIN ARE NONCITIZENS WHO VOTED ILLEGALLY.

SO NEVADA SAID GIVE US THE NAMES AND THE DHS GAVE NEVADA THE NAMES AND NEVADA WENT AND CHECKED.

EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE WAS A U. S. CITIZEN.

DHS GOT EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM WRONG.

AND IT TURNS OUT THEREFORE WE WENT FROM 16,000 POTENTIAL NONCITIZEN VOTERS TO 185 CERTAIN TO ZERO.

SIMILARLY, WE JUST SAW OUT OF MARICOPA COUNTY, ARIZONA, AN AUDIT THAT BEGAN WITH A CLAIM OF 187 NONCITIZENS ON THE VOTING ROLLS, 60 WHO HAD VOTED DOWN TO EIGHT TOTAL OUT OF AN ELECTION, AND ONLY TWO OF THOSE VOTED IN THE 2024, OUT OF TWO MILLION PEOPLE.

SO LITERALLY, ONE IN A MILLION VOTERS WERE NONCITIZENS.

THAT SHOWS YOU THE SCALE OF WHAT THIS ACTUAL ISSUE IS.

IT'S NOT THAT NONCITIZENS NEVER VOTE, IT'S THAT THEY VOTE ABOUT ONE IN A MILLION.

>> AND THAT IMPACTS THE OUTCOME HOW, IF AT ALL?

>> IT DOESN'T.

>> OKAY.

>> IN FACT, AUDIT AFTER AUDIT AFTER AUDIT CARRIED OUT BY DEMOCRATIC AND REPUBLICAN ELECTION OFFICIALS HAS NEVER PRODUCED A SINGLE ELECTION WHICH HAS BEEN DECIDED BY AN ILLEGAL NONCITIZEN VOTE.

AND WHEN I SAY THAT, IT'S ALSO IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND IN MOST CIRCUMSTANCES, NONCITIZEN VOTERS ARE GREENCARD HOLDERS WHO ARE AFFIRMATIVELY MISLED BY THE GOVERNMENT WHO ARE ALLOWED TO VOTE DESPITE HAVING TOLD THE GOVERNMENT THEY ARE NONCITIZENS OR ARE FALSELY TOLD THEY ARE ELIGIBLE TO VOTE BY A GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL.

>> THE PRESIDENT ARGUED YESTERDAY THAT PEOPLE HAVE STOPPED CARING ABOUT BORDER SECURITY BECAUSE HE HAS DONE SO WELL THAT IT'S NOT A TOP PRIORITY.

PERHAPS THIS IS AN OUTCOME THAT HE'S CREATED GIVEN EVERYTHING THAT HE'S DONE TO CLOSE THE BORDER AND TO BE FAIR, THAT IS ONE OF THE TOP PRIORITIES THAT VOTERS HAD GOING INTO THE 2024 PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION.

BUT A RECENT REUTERS/IPSOS POLL FOUND 30% APPROVE OF HIS IMMIGRATION HANDLING AND 55% DISAPPROVE.

SO DO YOU THINK HE IS CONFLATING SUPPORT FOR SECURING THE BORDER FOR SUPPORT SOME OF THE TACTICS NOW THAT THE ADMINISTRATION IS USING?

BECAUSE IT'S HARD TO DEFEND THE NEED TO USE THEM IF THE BORDER IS INDEED MORE SECURE.

>> I THINK THE PRESIDENT IS RIGHT.

BECAUSE THE BORDER IS MUCH QUIETER THAN IT WAS IN THE PAST, PEOPLE ARE NO LONGER THINKING ABOUT IT AS MUCH.

AND THAT MEANS WHAT THEY'RE THINKING ABOUT WHEN THEY THINK ABOUT IMMIGRATION ENFORCEMENT IS WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE INTERIOR.

AND WHAT POLLS HAVE SHOWN CONSISTENTLY SINCE TRUMP BEGAN HIS MASS DEPORTATION EFFORTS IS THAT WHEN AMERICANS DON'T LIKE IS CHAOS.

THEY DON'T LIKE CHAOS.

THEY DIDN'T LIKE CHAOS AT THE BORDER, AND THEY DON'T LIKE CHAOS IN THE INTERIOR.

AND THEY DON'T LIKE SEEING AMERICAN CITIZENS BEING ARRESTED BY MISTAKE, UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS, FAMILY, PEOPLE WHO ARE JUST RAISING FAMILIES, WORKING HARD BEING ARRESTED AND THROWN TO THE GROUND AND BEATEN BY OFFICERS.

AND ALL OF THIS IS REFLECTING NEGATIVELY ON THE PRESIDENT BECAUSE IT'S NOT WHAT THEY WERE SELLING WHEN HE WAS CAMPAIGNING.

>> YEAH.

AND REPORTING SUGGESTED THAT IT REACHED A POINT THAT THE PRESIDENT WAS TURNED OFF BY SOME OF THE IMAGES THAT HE WAS SEEING ON AMERICAN STREETS.

ALL RIGHT, AARON REICHLIN-MELNICK FROM THE AMERICAN IMMIGRATION COUNCIL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME AND ANALYSIS.

REALLY APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

> >> WELL, SEVEN MONTHS INTO THE WAR WITH IRAN, THERE ARE FEW SIGNS OF A SWIFT END.

BUT DIPLOMACY IS CONTINUING.

IRAN'S FOREIGN MINISTER ABBAS ARAGHCHI SAYS QATAR IS SHUTTLING IDEAS BETWEEN TEHRAN AND WASHINGTON.

>> Translator: TODAY ONE OF THE QATARI MEDIATORS HELD ANOTHER MEETING WITH US.

WE DISCUSSED IDEAS ON HOW TO FIND A WAY TO FULFILL IRAN'S CONDITIONS.

HOW THESE CONDITIONS COULD BE MET.

WE HAVE SOME IDEAS.

AND WE AGREED THEY WOULD RAISE THE MATTER AGAIN WITH THE AMERICAN SIDE AFTER WHICH THE U. S. SIDE'S FINAL RESPONSE WILL BE CONVEYED TO US.

I HOPE THIS PROCESS WILL BE COMPLETED BY TOMORROW.

>> WHATEVER HAPPENS NEXT, THE ROOTS OF THIS CONFLICT STRETCH BACK FAR BEYOND JUST THE LAST SEVEN MONTHS.

IN HIS NEW BOOK, "THE CAULDRON," HISTORIAN SIMON SEBAG-MONTEFIORE TRACES MORE THAN A CENTURY OF WAR, REVOLUTION, AND GREAT POWER RIVALRY THAT SHAPES THE MODERN MIDDLE EAST.

AND HE JOINS ME NOW LIVE FROM NEW YORK.

SIMON, THERE HAS BEEN SO MUCH ANTICIPATION GEARING UP TO THIS BOOK RELEASE.

AND TODAY IT IS OFFICIALLY OUT HERE IN THE UNITED STATES.

QUITE AN AMBITIOUS JOURNEY YOU DECIDED TO TAKE ON.

AND GIVEN ALL OF THE REVIEWS, I'M ALMOST DONE WITH THE BOOK, YOU SUCCEEDED MASTERFULLY.

SO CONGRATULATIONS.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US TO TALK A BIT ABOUT IT.

>> THANK YOU.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> YOU'VE WRITTEN MANY HISTORY BOOKS, AND I THINK WHAT MAKES THIS ONE STAND OUT A BIT FROM THE OTHERS, EVEN ON SIMILAR TOPICS IS YOUR APPROACH TO IT.

YOU BEGIN IN 1902 WITH IBN SAUDI'S CAPTURE OF RIYADH.

WHY DOES THIS STORY OF A MODERN MIDDLE EAST NEED TO START THERE?

>> I THINK SO MANY OF THE TRADITIONAL HISTORIES BEGIN WITH EUROPEANS DRAWING MAPS IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

AND I THINK THAT AFTER 80 YEARS OF INDEPENDENCE, IT'S VERY IMPORTANT THAT WE REALIZE THAT THE MIDDLE EAST, OF COURSE THERE IS OUTSIDE INTERVENTIONS.

THERE IS GREAT POWER POLITICS, BUT REALLY, HISTORY IS ALSO MADE THERE BY THE MIDDLE EASTERNERS THEMSELVES.

AND THAT'S WHY I STARTED IN THE BEGINNING OF THE 20th CENTURY WITH THE ULTIMATE EMPIRE AND WITH ABDUL AZIZ CITY, IBN SAUD AS HE IS OFTEN KNOWN IN WESTERN HISTORIES WITH 40 FRIENDS SEIZING A SMALL TOWN IN THE MIDDLE OF ARABIA, AND THAT SMALL TOWN IS RIYADH.

AND THAT IS THE FOUNDATION OF THE MODERN KINGDOM OF SAUDI ARABIA, WHICH IS ACTUALLY THE THIRD SAUDI STATE TO RULE ARABIA.

AND IT'S A STORY THAT HAS GREAT EXCITEMENT.

IT'S CINEMATIC, BUT IT ALSO TELLS YOU SOMETHING, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, NOW IN OUR PERIODS, SAUDI ARABIA AND THE GULF IS REALLY THE CENTER OF THE MIDDLE EAST, AND IN SOME WAYS THE CENTER OF THE WORLD.

>> AND SIMON, YOU COME FROM ONE OF EUROPE'S MOST STORIED FAMILIES.

PEOPLE THINK THAT HEY, HIS NAME SOUNDS FAMILIAR, IT IS BECAUSE YOUR STORY, YOUR FAMILY STORY IS ROOTED IN SO MUCH HISTORY STRETCHING FROM MOROCCO TO ITALY TO BRITAIN, JERUSALEM, WHERE MOSES MONTEFIORE HELPED BUILD THE JEWISH COMMUNITY OUTSIDE OF THE OLD CITY'S WALLS.

YOU WALKED THE STREETS OF ISRAEL.

YOU SEE MANY STREETS NAMED AFTER YOUR FAMILY, CARRYING THE MONTEFIORE NAME.

WHAT DID YOU BELIEVE GROWING UP ABOUT THIS REGION THAT PERHAPS RESEARCHING EITHER TAUGHT YOU MORE ABOUT OR MADE YOU RECONSIDER?

>> I ALWAYS HAVE BEEN FASCINATED BY THE MIDDLE EAST.

THAT'S THE MONTEFIORE WINDMILL THAT YOU'RE SHOWING THERE.

BUT THE SEBAG FAMILY, ANOTHER PART OF MY FAMILY LIVED IN MOROCCO.

THEY WERE ALSO JEWISH, BUT THEY LIVED IN MOROCCO FOR 500 YEARS BEFORE THEY CAME TO BRITAIN.

AND I THINK THAT THE POINT OF BOTH THESE STORIES, MONTEFIORE AND SEBAG IS THAT THE MIDDLE EAST IS A MUCH MORE COMPLICATED, NUANCED AND DIVERSE INTERCONNECTED REGION FILLED WITH DIFFERENT ETHNICITIES AND SECTS THAT IS MUCH MORE COMPLEX THAN THAN THE USUAL STORY AS IT APPEARS IN THE MEDIA OR PARTICULARLY ON SOCIAL MEDIA.

AND WHAT I WANTED TO DO WITH THIS BOOK WAS REALLY SHOW THE HISTORY AS IT REALLY TOOK PLACE.

AND RATHER THAN JUST DEPENDING ON SLOGANS AND MEMES THAT YOU SEE ON TWITTER OR TIKTOK, BUT I LOOKED FOR HISTORY LIKE THIS.

I WANTED A HISTORY THAT SHOWED NOT JUST ISRAEL AND PALESTINIAN, NOT JUST IRAN, BUT THE WHOLE MIDDLE EAST.

AND WHAT I'VE DONE HERE IS TELL THE HISTORY OF HOW THE MIDDLE EAST OF 1900 BECAME THE MIDDLE EAST OF 2026.

IT GOES FROM 1900 TO 2026.

IT COVERS 19 COVERS FROM IRAN TO MOROCCO, FROM TURKEY TO YEMEN AND SUDAN.

AND IT REALLY ANSWERS THE QUESTION HOW ON EARTH DID WE GET TO WHERE WE ARE TODAY.

AND THE ANSWER IS YOU HAVE TO START WITH THE PERIOD OF THE EMPIRES AND GO ALL THE WAY THROUGH TO THE PERIOD OF INDEPENDENCE.

AND WE'RE NOW 80 YEARS INTO THAT PERIOD.

AND I MUST SAY WE ARE IN A PERIOD WHERE HISTORY IS MOVING SO FAST AT THE MOMENT.

AND THE BOOK GOES RIGHT UP TO THE BEGINNING OF THE PRESENT THIRD GULF WAR IN FEBRUARY THIS YEAR.

>> AND AS WE NOTED IN THE INTRODUCTION, A HISTORY CONTINUES TO WRITE ITSELF, AS IT ALWAYS DOES, BUT SPECIFICALLY IN THAT REGION AS THE UNITED STATES IS NOW ENGAGING IN WAR WITH IRAN.

IT MAY SEEM COUNTERINTUITIVE, SIMON, BUT ONE OF THE BOOK'S STRENGTHS IS YOU DON'T PLAY FAVORITES.

AND AS A HISTORIAN, EVEN TODAY THAT DOES SEEM TO BE SOMETHING WE DON'T SEE OFTEN.

HOW IMPORTANT IS IT TO TELL THE STORY WITHOUT FEELING THE PRESSURE OF FITTING INTO A CERTAIN NARRATIVE THAT MAY BE IN VOGUE AT THE MOMENT?

>> THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT OF THE BOOK.

I'M A HISTORIAN.

I STUDIED HISTORY AT CAMBRIDGE IN BRITAIN.

AND THE BOOKS I WRITE AREN'T IDEOLOGICAL.

THEY AREN'T NATIONALISTIC.

THEY SHOW EVERYONE ON ALL SIDES, GOOD AND BAD.

AND THIS BOOK CONTAINS THE NARRATIVES OF MANY PEOPLES.

IT CONTAINS SOME OF THE GREAT POWERS THAT YOU'LL HAVE HEARD OF - - TURKEY, IRAN, EGYPT, THE SAUDIS, FOR EXAMPLE, BUT ALSO MANY SMALLER PEOPLES WHO ARE THE DRUS, WHO ARE THE KURDS?

WHY DIDN'T THEY GET A STATE?

WHO ARE THE SYRIANS?

IT FOLLOWS ALL THESE PEOPLES AS WELL.

AND THAT'S EXTREMELY IMPORTANT.

IT ISN'T PRO IMPEERIST.

IT ISN'T MARXIST.

IT ISN'T PAN ARAB.

IT DOESN'T FOLLOW PAN ARAB NATIONALISM.

THE POINT IS TO SAY EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED AND THAT READER CAN JUDGE.

IF THEY WANT TO MAKE MORAL JUDGMENTS, THEY CAN DO THAT, OR ELSE THEY CAN SIMPLY ENJOY THE STORY, BECAUSE IT'S ALSO TOLD THROUGH THE GREAT CHARACTERS THAT MADE THE MODERN MIDDLE EAST.

>> YEAH.

THERE ARE AMERICANS IN THERE, PRESIDENT WILSON, PRESIDENT TRUMP.

THERE ARE RUSSIAN, THE STALIN, THERE IS NICHOLAS II, THERE IS PUTIN.

AND THEN THERE ARE THE GREAT MIDDLE EAST LEADER, ATATURK WHO FOUNDED SOCCER, ERDOGAN WHO LEADS TURKEY NOW, BEN GURION WHO FOUNDED ISRAEL, SAUDI ARABIA, REZA SHAH, KHAMENEI AND KHOMEINI OF IRAN.

ALL THESE CHARACTERS ARE IN THE BOOK.

AND SO ARE ALL THE GREAT MOVEMENTS, ISLAMISM, ZIONISM, CAPITALISM, FASCISM, THEY'RE ALL IN THERE.

>> YOU TRACE MUCH OF TODAY'S INSTABILITY TO THE COLLAPSE OF THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE AND THE BORDERS THAT SUBSEQUENTLY FOLLOWED.

WHY IS THAT SUCH A PIVOTAL MOMENT IN THE REGION'S HISTORY?

>> TO UNDERSTAND THE MIDDLE EAST TODAY, YOU HAVE TO GO BACK TO THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE.

THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE WAS A SULTANATE THAT REALED FROM THE BALKANS TO IRAQ, AND IT RULED FOR 400 YEARS.

AND DURING THAT TIME, IT EXISTED IN MANY DIFFERENT MANIFESTATIONS, BUT IT DOMINATED THE REGION, AND IT SET UP ITSELF AS A RELIGIOUS AND POLITICAL AUTHORITY.

AND SINCE THE FALL OF THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE IN 1918, NO SINGLE POWER HAS HAD THE SAME AUTHORITY THAT THAT THE OTTOMANS HAD.

AND THAT IS ONE OF THE REASONS WHY THERE IS A CONSTANT TOURNAMENT OF POWER GOING ON IN THE MIDDLE EAST IN THE SEARCH FOR A SINGLE DOMINANT POWER.

NOW I MEAN, AT VARIOUS TIMES AFTER THE FALL OF THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE, THE BRITISH AND THE FRENCH RULED MUCH OF THE MIDDLE EAST, AS WE KNOW.

DURING THE COLD WAR, THE AMERICANS AND THE SOVIETS.

AFTER THE END OF THE COLD WAR, THERE WAS AN AMERICAN POWER MOUNT THERE.

SINCE 2016, WE ARE SEEING A MULTIPLAYER GAME IN WHICH MANY POWERS, SOME LARGE, SOME SMALL ARE EXERTING NEW POWER, SOMETIMES NEO IMPERIAL INTERESTS AND ASPIRATIONS ACROSS THE MIDDLE EAST.

AND ONE OF THE INTERESTING THINGS IS WE SEE THE MIDDLE EAST AS THE ARAB WORLD, BUT THE MAJOR MILITARY POWERS IN THE MIDDLE EAST -- IRAN, TURKEY, AND ISRAEL, NONE OF THOSE THREE ARE IN FACT ARAB-SPEAKING COUNTRIES.

>> LET'S TALK ABOUT TURKEY FIRST THERE, BECAUSE IT IS CENTRAL TO YOUR STORY HERE AND ESPECIALLY GIVEN ERDOGAN'S ROLE NOW IN PURSUING WHAT COULD BE DESCRIBED AS SORT OF NOSTALGIA FOR THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE.

GIVEN HIS CLOSER TIES WITH THE UNITED STATES, THE FACT THAT MANY OF THE DEVELOPMENTS WE'VE SEEN OVER THE COURSE OF THE LAST FEW YEARS IN THE REGION HAVE BENEFITTED HIM AND TURKEY, AND AS A MEMBER OF NATO, HOW FAR CAN HE PURSUE, AND AT WHAT POINT DOES IT BECOME INCREASINGLY DANGEROUS TO CONTINUE TO PURSUE SOME OF THAT OTTOMAN NOSTALGIA?

>> I THINK THAT'S A VERY GOOD POINT.

I MEAN, ERDOGAN, ALONG WITH ATATURK, WHO CREATED THE TURKISH REPUBLIC IN 1922-'23, ERDOGAN IS THE MOST IMPORTANT TURKISH LEADER OF THE PAST CENTURY.

AND WHAT HE'S DOING IS HE IS COMBINING A SORT OF MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD VARIETY OF ISLAMISM WITH NEO OTTOMANISM, NEO OTTOMAN IMPERIAL ASPIRATIONS.

AND THAT'S WHY HE'S CONTINUALLY TALKING ABOUT HOW HE WANTS TO EXERT SPECIAL INFLUENCE IN FORMER OTTOMAN CITIES --ALEPPO, DAMASCUS, AND WHY HE IS CONSTANTLY TALKING ABOUT JERUSALEM, AND HIS MINISTERS ARE TALKING ABOUT RETAKING JERUSALEM.

AND THAT MEANS HE'S CONSTANTLY COMBINING THOSE TWO IDEAS IN HIS ATTACKS ON ISRAEL.

BUT OBVIOUSLY, AS YOU IMPLY, THAT'S DANGEROUS.

HE'S A NATO MEMBER.

HE HAS SPECIAL RELATIONS WITH THE EU.

HIS ECONOMY IS EXTREMELY FRAGILE AND DEPENDENT IN PART ON THOSE RELATIONS.

SO HE'S PLAYING A DANGEROUS GAME.

AND THERE ARE CASES IN THE HISTORY OF THE MIDDLE EAST WHERE VERY POWERFUL LEADERS LIKE GAMMA ABDEL NASSER IN EGYPT FOR EXAMPLE CONSTANTLY TALKED UP WAR WITH ISRAEL AND TRIED TO CREATE LARGER STATES AND EXERT POWER.

AND THAT LED TO ACTUAL WAR, WHICH ACTUALLY DESTROYED HIS POWER.

SO I THINK ERDOGAN IS PLAYING A DANGEROUS GAME.

AND OF COURSE HE IS BEHIND OR HE TAKES THE CREDIT FOR THE NEW REGIME, THE EL SHARAR REGIME IN SYRIA AND THAT SCENARIO WHERE HE'S COMING UP AGAINST ISRAELI POWER.

>> AND WE CONTINUE TO SEE TENSIONS RATCHET UP BETWEEN ISRAEL AND TURKEY, TWO COUNTRIES WHICH JUST OVER A DECADE AGO OR SO HAD MUCH CLOSER TIES.

YOU'VE CHALLENGED THE PORTRAYAL OF ISRAEL AS SIMPLY A EUROPEAN COLONIAL PROJECT.

WHAT ESSENTIAL HISTORY DOES THAT LABEL ERASE?

AND TALK ABOUT HOW YOU'RE ABLE TO NAVIGATE AND SORT OF DISPEL SOME OF THESE MORE MODERN DAY ASSUMPTIONS WHILE ALSO FULLY ACKNOWLEDGING PALESTINIAN DISPOSSESSION.

>> WELL, THIS HISTORY, YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT, IS VERY CAREFULLY WRITTEN AS A HISTORY OF BOTH THE ISRAELI AND THE PALESTINIAN NATIONS.

WHICH IN THEIR MODERN --IN THEIR MODERN MANIFESTATIONS ARE PRETTY RECENT.

BUT AS FOR THE CREATION OF ISRAEL, I SEE IT IN PART AS ONE OF THE NATIONS THAT WERE CREATED OUT OF THE FALL OF THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE, THE SUPPOSED OTTOMAN IMPERIAL STATE THAT EMERGED, ALONG WITH ALL THE OTHER STATES IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

SO THAT'S THE FIRST THING TO UNDERSTAND IS THAT NATION STATES LIKE SYRIA, IRAQ, LEBANON, THEY'RE NOT ANCIENT STATES.

THEY DIDN'T EXIST BEFORE THEY WERE INVENTED IN THE MIDDLE OF THE 20th CENTURY.

THEY WERE DRAWN BY IMPERIAL POWERS, FRANCE, MAINLY FRANCE AND BRITAIN, AND THEY ALL BECAME INDEPENDENT AROUND THE SAME TIME AS ISRAEL, AS DID OTHER MODERN POWERS LIKE PAKISTAN AND INDIA.

AS FOR THE IDEA THAT ISRAEL IS A SETTLER COLONIAL -- SETTLER COLONIAL CREATION, THAT'S AN IDEOLOGICAL TERM THAT I DON'T USE.

OF COURSE, MANY JEWS DID SETTLE OF COURSE, MANY JEWS DID SETTLE IN THE HOLY LAND.

AND TO HELP CREATE ISRAEL.

THE DIFFERENCE IS THAT UNLIKE IN COLONIALISM, THERE WAS NO IMPERIAL POWER, AND THE JEWS WERE IN FACT HAD ALWAYS BEEN PRESENT IN THE HOLY LAND.

AND INDEED, WERE INDIGENOUS TO JUDIA, WHICH IS WHERE THE NAME JEWISH COMES FROM.

AND OF COURSE, MANY OF THE JEWS THAT MAKE UP THE MODERN ISRAELI NATION ARE FROM EASTERN EUROPE, BUT MANY OF THEM AND NOW A GREAT MAJORITY, OVER 60% ARE FROM THE MIDDLE EAST, THEREFORE INDIGENOUS TO THE MIDDLE EAST.

THAT'S WHY I KIND OF AVOID IN MY BOOK ALL IDEOLOGICAL JARGON, WHICH I GENERALLY FIND TO OBSCURE THE STORY AND OBSCURE THE FACTS.

AND IN THE BOOK, I JUST LET THE STORY OF ZIONISM AND THE PALESTINIAN CATASTROPHE OF 1948, I TELL BOTH EXACTLY AS IT HAPPENED, AND THE READER CAN JUDGE.

>> SIMON, ANOTHER PHRASE YOU AVOID, YOU DON'T USE, IN FACT, YOU STRONGLY REJECT IS THAT OF GENOCIDE IN THE CHARGE AFTER OCTOBER 7th IN THE ORRIFIC ATTACKS AND THE SUBSEQUENT BRUTAL WAR, THE LONGEST IN ISRAEL'S HISTORY IN GAZA.

YOU DO THAT WHILE AT THE SAME TIME CONDEMNING THE DEVASTATION IN GAZA AND SOME OF THE RHETORIC OF EXTREMISTS ISRAELI MINISTERS.

WHAT EVIDENCE IS DECISIVE FOR YOU THAT THIS IN FACT IS NOT A GENOCIDE?

>> I THINK THE KEY THING ABOUT THE WORD "GENOCIDE" IS THAT IT'S HISTORICALLY AN INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT AND SENSITIVE WORD FOR THE MOST SUPREME AND TOTAL OF CRIMES IN WORLD HISTORY.

AND IN THIS BOOK, I CHRONICLE THE GENOCIDES THAT WERE SUFFERED BY THE ARMENIAN PEOPLE, BY THE PONTIC GREEKS BIG, THE CHRISTIAN, THE AZEIDIS UNDER ISIS, THE KURDS UNDER SADDAM HUSSEIN, AND SO ON.

AND OF COURSE THE ULTIMATE GENOCIDE, THE HOLOCAUST AGAINST THE JEWISH PEOPLE IN WORLD WAR II.

AND THEREFORE I THINK IT'S VERY DANGEROUS TO USE THE WORD GENOCIDE AS A HYPERBOLIC INSULT ON A BANNER WHICH IS OFTEN HOW IT'S BEING USED NOW.

AND IT'S NOT CORRECT TO USE THE WORD GENOCIDE AS ANOTHER WORD FOR A FEROCIOUS WAR.

AND THAT'S WHAT WE'RE SEEING, WE'VE SEEN IN GAZA.

BUT THE BOOK OBVIOUSLY, IT RECOUNTS VERY CAREFULLY THE FEROCITY OF THE WAR, THE BRUTALITY.

BUT I THINK --I THINK THAT ULTIMATELY, HISTORIANS CAN DEBATE THIS.

SOME HISTORIANS ARE NOW USING THAT EXPRESSION.

MANY ARE NOT.

AND ULTIMATELY, MOST WESTERN GOVERNMENTS BELIEVE THAT IT HAS NOT YET REACHED ANYTHING LIKE THE LEVEL OF A GENOCIDE.

AND ULTIMATELY, IT'S UP TO THE INTERNATIONAL LAW COURTS.

BUT I THINK IT'S VERY DANGEROUS TO MISUSE IT AS A HYPERBLY.

>> YOU DESCRIBE AS ONE OF THE DANGER WITHIN JEWISH SUPREMISM.

SO MANY ARE SAYING THIS ELECTION IS THE COUNTRY'S MOST CONSEQUENTIAL.

AND YET THERE IS HOPE.

YOU'RE AN ETERNAL OPTIMIST, SIMON.

YOU END WITH THE IDEA THAT PEACE REQUIRES PEOPLE TO HEAR EACH OTHER'S HISTORY.

LAST FEW SECONDS OF THE SHOW, WHY IS IT SO IMPORTANT FOR YOU TO MAKE THAT POINT?

>> I THINK THE KEY THING IS THAT ONE OF THE REASONS WHY THESE HISTORIES ARE IMPORTANT IS PEACE CAN ONLY BE MADE IF PEOPLE REALLY RESPECT THE NARRATIVE, THE HISTORY OF THE OTHER.

AND THAT IS ONE OF THE MISSIONS OF THIS BOOK.

BUT ULTIMATELY, I THINK THERE ARE NEW MODELS OF A NEW MODEL MIDDLE EAST THAT IN WHICH ISRAEL HAS A ROLE.

WE'RE SEEING THAT RIGHT NOW WITH THE MEETINGS SORT OF HAPPENING IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

AND IT IS ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL THAT BOTH THE ISRAELIS AND ULTIMATELY THE PALESTINIANS HAVE THE RIGHT OF SELF-DETERMINATION AND THAT THERE ARE TWO NATIONS AND TWO REPUBLICS.

AND IT MAY NOT HAPPEN TOMORROW, BUT I THINK IT HAS TO HAPPEN, AND I THINK IT WILL HAPPEN.

>> AND THAT THE PEOPLE THAT ARE LIVING IN THOSE TWO LANDS ARE GOING NOWHERE.

THEY HAVE TO -- >> THAT WAS THE POINT.

>> THEIR OWN PEACE AS NEIGHBORS.

SIMON SEBAG-MONTEFIORE, GREAT TO HAVE YOU ON.

AUTHOR OF "THE CAULDRON. "

IT IS OUT NOW.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

REALLY APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU.

> >> NOW TO GUN VIOLENCE IN AMERICA.

ACCORDING TO THE CDC, ROUGHLY 130 PEOPLE ARE KILLED BY GUNS EVERY DAY, AND TWICE AS MANY ARE SHOT AND WOUNDED.

MEANWHILE, FIREARMS REMAIN THE LEADING CAUSE OF DEATH FOR YOUNG CHILDREN AND TEENS IN THE U. S. THIS IS A DISTURBING REALITY YET LITTLE PROGRESS HAS BEEN MADE IN PREVENTING MORE TRAGEDIES.

IN HIS NEW BOOK, AUTHOR MALCOLM GLADWELL ARGUES THAT THE FALSE NARRATIVE SURROUNDING THE GUN DEBATE MAY HAVE STALLED DECISIVE SAFEGUARDING MEASURES, AND HE JOINS HARI SREENIVASAN TO DISCUSS WHY IT'S IMPORTANT TO CHALLENGE THEM.

>> BIANNA, THANKS.

MALCOLM GLADWELL, WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

YOUR LATEST BOOK IS CALLED "THE AMERICAN WAY OF KILLING: THE INVENTION OF AN EPIDEMIC. "

YOU REALLY TAKE A LOOK AT THIS SORT OF GUN DEBATE THAT WE'VE HAD FOR SO MANY YEARS NOW.

WHAT DID YOU CONCLUDE ABOUT HOW WE DISCUSS THIS TOPIC?

>> YES, THE THEME OF THE BOOK IS SOMETHING FUNDAMENTALLY DISHONEST IN THE WAY THAT AMERICANS TALK ABOUT GUN VIOLENCE.

AND BY DISHONEST, I DON'T MEAN DELIBERATELY DECEPTIVE.

I MEAN THERE ARE SO MANY KIND OF FALSE ASSUMPTIONS, SO MANY MISUNDERSTANDINGS, SO MUCH KIND OF DELIBERATE AVOIDANCE OF DIFFICULT TRUTHS THAT IT'S JUST IMPOSSIBLE TO HAVE A STRAIGHT FORWARD CONVERSATION ABOUT HOW TO END THIS PUBLIC HEALTH DISASTER.

>> YOU WRITE THAT A CONVERSATION THAT STARTS WITH THE BEST OF INTENTIONS CAN BECOME DISHONEST FOR ANY NUMBER OF REASONS.

WHEN EITHER SIDE PRETENDS THAT SOMETHING IS CONSEQUENTIAL WHEN IT IS NOT, WHEN EITHER SIDE AVOIDS THE RIGHT CONCLUSION BECAUSE IT IS DIFFICULT, OR WHEN EITHER SIDE BLINDS ITSELF TO THE TRUTH THROUGH LAZINESS OR INDIFFERENCE.

THE AMERICAN CONVERSATION ABOUT GUNS IS RIFE WITH THESE KIND OF DISHONESTIES.

LET'S GET INTO A COUPLE OF THESE DISHONESTIES THAT I THINK A LOT OF TIMES WE ALMOST USE THEM AS SHORTHANDS.

AND YOU'RE SAYING A LOT OF THESE ARE WRONG.

>> YEAH.

A GOOD EXAMPLE WOULD BE THAT AMERICANS HAVE THIS NOTION OF THEMSELVES THAT IT'S OVERPOLICED.

AND CONSERVATIVES LIKE THAT AND LIBERALS THINK IT'S A PROBLEM.

IN FACT, AMERICA IS NOT OVERPOLICED.

WE ARE DRAMATICALLY UNDERPOLICED RELATIVE TO OUR PEERS AROUND THE WORLD.

THE EXAMPLE I GIVE IN THE BOOK IS THAT THE CITY OF LOS ANGELES HAS ON A GOOD DAY 8500 POLICE OFFICERS.

BERLIN IN GERMANY, WHICH IS THE SAME SIZE AS L. A. HAS 18,000 POLICE OFFICERS.

AND THAT'S TYPICAL.

YOU GO DOWN THE LIST OF AMERICAN CITIES, YOU WILL SEE THAT ON AVERAGE, WE HAVE HALF AS MANY POLICE PER CAPITA AS MANY OTHER WESTERN COUNTRIES.

WHAT WE DO IS, THE DIFFERENCE IS EUROPEAN COUNTRIES AND AMERICAN COUNTRIES SPEND THE SAME AM AMOUNT OF MONEY ON PUBLIC SAFETY, BUT WE SPEND ALL OUR MONEY ON PRISONS AND A LITTLE BIT ON POLICE, AND THEY DO THE OPPOSITE IN EUROPE.

A LOT ON POLICE, A LITTLE ON PRISONS.

I DON'T THINK ANYONE IF THEY WERE --IF THE QUESTION WAS POSED TO THEM THAT WAY WOULD PREFER THE AMERICAN MODEL TO THE EUROPEAN MODEL.

IT MAKES FAR MORE SENSE TO PUT YOUR RESOURCES INTO PREVENTION OF CRIME AND PUBLIC DISORDER THAN IT IS IN JUST DEALING WITH THE AFTEREFFECTS.

SO WE'VE -- BECAUSE WE HAVEN'T UNDERSTOOD A VERY BASIC FACT ABOUT OUR POLICING, WE'VE HAD A KIND OF PHONY CONVERSATION ABOUT WHAT'S WRONG AND HOW TO FIX IT.

THAT'S JUST ONE OF NUMEROUS EXAMPLES I THINK OF HOW WE LEAD OURSELVES ASTRAY.

>> YOU ALSO WRITE ABOUT FLINT, MICHIGAN.

YOU'RE SAYING THE CONSEQUENCE OF WHAT WE'RE CALLING THE UNDERPOLICING IS A DIFFERENT TYPE OF BEHAVIOR.

>> MANY PEOPLE HAVE ACCURATELY, PARTICULARLY THOSE ON THE LEFT, HAVE ACCURATELY DEALT WITH ON THE FACT THAT AMERICAN POLICE ARE FAR MORE VIOLENT THAN THEIR COUNTERPARTS AROUND THE WORLD.

AND THE ASSUMPTION HAS BEEN OH, WE'RE -- OUR POLICE ARE VIOLENT BECAUSE THERE'S TOO MANY OF THEM.

IN FACT, THE OPPOSITE IS TRUE.

THERE IS A WONDERFUL STUDY DONE BY TWO PEOPLE AT HARVARD WHERE THEY SIMPLY TAKE A LOOK AT ALL OF THE POLICE VOICES, ALL THE COUNTRIES, A GOOD SAMPLE OF THE COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD AND RANKED THEM BY HOW MANY POLICE THEY HAVE PER CAPITA.

THEN THEY LOOK AT THE LEVELS OF POLICE VIOLENCE IN ALL THOSE COUNTRIES, HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE KILLED BY THE POLICE, HOW MUCH EXCESS FORCE IS USED.

AND WHAT THEY FIND IS YOU SEE POLICE VIOLENCE IN EXCESS FORCE IN THE COUNTRIES WITH THE LOWEST NUMBERS OF POLICE, AND YOU SEE THE FEWEST, YOU SEE THE BEST BEHAVED POLICE IN THE DONEES WITH THE MOST POLICE, WHICH IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT, MAKES SENSE, THAT THE USE OF FORCE BY POLICE, AGGRESSION BY POLICE IS A RESPONSE TO BEING OVERWHELMED AND UNDERMANNED.

THAT IF YOU HAVE ENOUGH POLICE ON THE GROUND THAT THEY CAN GET TO KNOW THE COMMUNITY, THAT THEY CAN DO MORE THAN SIMPLY DRIVE IN THEIR CARS FROM ONE EMERGENCY TO THE OTHER, THEN YOU HAVE A CHANCE TO HAVE A REAL RELATIONSHIP DEVELOP BETWEEN THE COMMUNITY AND LAW ENFORCEMENT.

SO IT'S NOT A CASE WHERE WE HAVE MISDIAGNOSED OUR PROBLEM.

WE'VE LOOKED AT POLICE VIOLENCE AND SAID DEFUND THE POLICE.

WE SHOULD HAVE DONE THE OPPOSITE.

LOOKED AT POLICE VIOLENCE AND SAID WE NEED MORE OF THEM.

>> SO WHAT WAS HAPPENING IN FLINT?

A LOT OF PEOPLE BUILD THIS IDEA THAT THE POLICE ARE VIOLENT AND THAT THEY'RE AGGRESSIVE WHEN THEY DON'T NEED TO BE BASED ON THE ACTIONS THAT THEY MAY HAVE SEEN IN THEIR OWN NEIGHBORHOODS ARE WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS AN UNDERPOLICED DEPARTMENT.

WHAT'S HAPPENING -- >> DEMILITARIZED.

FLYNT IS A CLASSIC EXAMPLE OF A POLICE DEPARTMENT THAT IS SO --IF YOU LOOK AT THE PER CAPITA POLICE IN FLINT, IT'S SO LOW AS TO BE ASTONISHING.

AND IF YOU HAVE SO FEW POLICE GOVERNING SO MANY PEOPLE, YOU REALLY --I MEAN, NOT AN ALTERNATIVE, BUT THE INEVITABLE RESULT IS THAT THE POLICE BECOME MILITARIZED.

THEY BEHAVE LIKE AN OCCUPYING ARMY.

THAT'S WHAT ARMYS DO WHEN THEY INVADE A COUNTRY.

THEY'RE MASSIVELY OVERMANNED.

AND SO THEY RESPOND BY PROJECTING THEIR POWER IN THE MOST KIND OF AGGRESSIVE WAY IMAGINABLE.

>> YOU ALSO WRITE THAT THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE BEING KILLED BY GUNS IS GOING DOWN, AND YOU USE MEMPHIS, TENNESSEE TO REALLY POINT TO SOMETHING MOST PEOPLE DON'T RECOGNIZE.

WHAT'S HAPPENING IN MEMPHIS?

OR WHAT HAS HAPPENED IN MEMPHIS, AND WHY?

>> SO MEMPHIS IS A GOOD EXAMPLE OF SOMETHING THAT'S HAPPENED ALL ACROSS THE COUNTRY, WHICH IS ANOTHER COMMON MISUNDERSTANDING WE HAVE.

THE HOMICIDE RATE IS A FUNCTION OF TWO FACTORS.

ONE IS THE LEVEL OF LETHAL VIOLENCE, RIGHT.

>> HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE GETTING SHOT, AND ALSO IS ACCESS TO QUALITY MEDICAL CARE, RIGHT.

IF I'M UP IN THE HUDSON VALLEY.

IF YOU SHOOT ME RIGHT NOW, IT'S GOING TO TAKE ME AT LEAST AN HOUR TO GET TO A LEVEL 1 TRAUMA CENTER, AND PROBABLY THE AMBULANCE IS GOING TO TAKE 20 MINUTES TO GET HERE, HALF AN HOUR.

THAT'S 90 MINUTES.

IF YOU SHOOT ME ON YORK AND 68th IN MANHATTAN, STEPS FROM A LEVEL 1 TRAUMA CENTER, I'M GOING SURVIVE, RIGHT.

THE SAME BULLET THAT WOULD KILL ME IN UPSTATE NEW YORK, I WILL SURVIVE IN MIDTOWN MANHATTAN.

IN UPSTATE NEW YORK, THAT'S A HOMICIDE.

IN MANHATTAN, THAT'S AGGRAVATED ASSAULT.

RIGHT.

THE DIFFERENCE IS NOT THE LEVEL OF VIOLENCE.

THE DIFFERENCE IS THE QUALITY AND ACCESS TO HEALTH CARE.

AND WHAT HAS HAPPENED IN AMERICA OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF GENERATIONS IS THAT OUR ABILITY TO QUICKLY OFFER HIGH QUALITY MEDICAL CARE TO GUNSHOT VICTIMS HAS GONE UP DRAMATICALLY.

MEMPHIS BEING A GOOD EXAMPLE.

THERE IS A FAMOUS STUDY A COUPLE YEARS BACK FROM A MEMPHIS, A BIG RESEARCH HOSPITAL IN MEMPHIS WHICH TALKED ABOUT HOW EVEN THOUGH THE NUMBER AND SEVERITY OF GUNSHOT WOUNDS THEY ARE SEEING IS GOING UP, THE DEATH RATE FROM PEOPLE BEING SHOT IS GOING DOWN.

AND THAT'S BECAUSE HOW GOOD THEY'VE BECOME AT TREATING POTENTIALLY LETHAL INJURIES.

>> YOU POINT OUT MULTIPLE WAYS IN THE BOOK THAT THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE WHO ARE KILLED BY GUNS ARE THEMSELVES.

THAT SUICIDE IS AN INCREDIBLY LARGE NUMBER OF THE HORRIBLE STATISTICS THAT WE HAVE AT THE END OF THE YEAR.

BUT YOU ALSO POINT OUT THERE IS KIND OF TWO DIFFERENT KINDS OF VIOLENCE THAT WE SHOULD BE THINKING ABOUT.

EXPLAIN THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN INSTRUMENTAL VIOLENCE AND EXPRESSIVE VIOLENCE.

>> YOU CAN BROADLY GROUP HOMICIDES INTO TWO CATEGORIES.

ONE IS INSTRUMENTAL.

AND THAT IS A HOMICIDE COMMITTED OR VIOLENCE COMMITTED IN THE COURSE OF SOME OTHER RATIONAL END.

I'M TRYING TO ROB A BANK.

THE GUARD GETS IN THE WAY, I SHOOT HIM.

I HAVE A DRUG TERRITORY.

SOMEONE'S TRYING TO STEAL MY DRUG TURF FROM ME, I DEFEND IT BY SHOOTING THE PERSON.

THAT'S INSTRUMENTAL VIOLENCE.

EXPRESSIVE VIOLENCE IS YOU AND I ARE HAVING AN ARGUMENT.

YOU HARM MY SISTER.

I'M OUTRAGED.

I PULL OUT A GUN AND I SHOOT YOU.

I'M NOT THINKING THAT THROUGH.

THE VIOLENCE IS THE POINT.

IT'S NOT A KIND OF STRATEGY USED IN PURSUIT OF SOME OTHER END.

AND IF I -- IT'S VIOLENCE THAT HAPPENS IN THE MOMENT.

I'M ANGRY.

MY LEVELS OF CORTISOL AND ADRENALINE HAVE SHOT UP.

I'M NOT THINKING STRAIGHT.

I'M PROBABLY GOING TO REGRET DOING IT LIKE TEN SECONDS AFTER I SHOOT YOU.

AND THE QUESTION IS WHAT KIND OF --WHEN WE TALK ABOUT A HOMICIDE PROBLEM IN AMERICA, WHAT KIND OF HOMICIDE ARE WE TALKING ABOUT.

IF YOU WATCH "LAW & ORDER," ALL YOU SEE ARE INSTRUMENTAL HOMICIDES.

THERE IS ALWAYS A MOTIVE AND A POINT BEHIND.

IN REAL LIFE, THAT'S NOT WHAT HOMICIDE IS.

HOMICIDE IN AMERICA AND AROUND THE WORLD AND NOT JUST NOW, BUT GOING BACK FOR AS LONG AS WE'VE TALKED ABOUT HOMICIDES IS OVERWHELMINGLY EXPRESSIVE.

IT'S PEOPLE IN THE HEAT OF THE MOMENT TRYING TO SETTLE SOME DISPUTE OR GRIEVANCE WITH THE USE OF LETHAL FORCE.

AND ONCE YOU UNDERSTAND THAT THAT'S WHAT IT IS, YOU REALIZE THAT THE POTENTIAL AVENUES AVAILABLE FOR ADDRESSING GUN VIOLENCE ARE VERY DIFFERENT THAN THE KINDS OF THINGS THAT WE TYPICALLY DISCUSS AMONGST OURSELVES WHEN IT COMES TO REDUCING VIOLENCE.

>> SO IF THIS IS THAT IMPULSIVE BEHAVIOR, IS THERE SOMETHING THAT'S HAPPENING IN THE BRAIN THAT'S DIFFERENT, THAT DOESN'T RESPOND TO THIS IDEA THAT LISTEN, IF I DO THIS RIGHT NOW IN THIS PARKING LOT OVER THIS SCUFFLE ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT I SHOULD GET THE SPOT VERSUS YOU, THAT THERE IS THIS 40- YEAR SENTENCE.

MY ENTIRE SOCIAL WORLD IS GOING TO COLLAPSE.

I'M GOING HAVE TO SPEND YEARS IN A LITTLE BOX.

THOSE ARE ALL CONSEQUENCES THAT OUR SOCIETY HAS SET UP THAT SAYS DON'T DO THIS THING.

THOSE ARE THE DISINCENTIVES.

WHAT IS HAPPENING WHEN OUR IMPULSIVE REACTION IS TAKING OVER AND WE'RE NOT EVEN CONSIDERING ALL THAT?

>> THIS IS A CLASSIC CASE OF THE KIND OF CARE WE HAVE IMAGINED FOR GUN VIOLENCE HAS ABSOLUTELY NO CONNECTION TO THE DISEASE.

THE PERSON WHO IS IN THAT MOMENT AND SHOOTING SOMEBODY IN AN ARGUMENT OVER SOME SORT OF SIMMERING EMOTIONAL DISPUTE IS NOT CALCULATING THE COST OF THEIR BEHAVIOR.

THEY'RE NOT RESPONDING TO A RECENT CHANGE IN, YOU KNOW, SENTENCING GUIDELINES FROM FEDERAL JUDGES.

THEY'RE NOT THINKING ABOUT WHAT IT WOULD BE LIKE TO SPEND 30 YEARS BEHIND BARS.

THEY'RE THINKING ABOUT RESOLVING THE SOCIAL CIRCUMSTANCE IN FRONT OF THEM.

AND ONCE YOU UNDERSTAND THAT, YOU REALIZE THAT WE'VE BEEN, YOU KNOW, ALL OF THESE THINGS THAT WE GROUP UNDER GETTING TOUGH ON CRIME AREN'T RELEVANT TO THE CRIME THAT WE'RE TRYING TO REDUCE, RIGHT.

ONCE YOU UNDERSTAND THAT SOMETHING LIKE HOMICIDE IS LARGELY EXPRESSIVE, YOU HAVE TO HAVE A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT APPROACH AND LANGUAGE FOR DEALING WITH THIS KIND OF DISORDER.

>> YOU POINT OUT SOME PROGRAMS THAT ARE ACTUALLY WORKING.

ONE IS A PROGRAM IN I THINK IT'S IN CHICAGO THAT'S USING COGNITIVE BEHAVIORAL THERAPY WITH KIDS.

EXPLAIN.

>> IT ALL BEGINS --IT IS A VARIETY OF THINGS THAT ARE BEING PURSUED WITH GREAT THINGS, STRATEGIES.

AND THEY ALL PROCEED FROM THE ASSUMPTION THAT WHAT WE HAVE IS A MOMENT, A SOCIAL SITUATION THAT IS EXPLOSIVE.

AND WE HAVE YOUNG PEOPLE, TYPICALLY YOUNG MEN WHO ARE INCAPABLE OF NAVIGATING THAT MOMENT SUCCESSFULLY.

SO FROM THAT, MANY PEOPLE HAVE STARTED TO SAY OKAY, WHAT HOMICIDE PREVENTION SHOULD LOOK LIKE THEN IS SOME FORM OF INTERVENTION THAT ALLOWS PEOPLE TO GET THROUGH THAT MOMENT.

BALTIMORE IS THE AMERICAN CITY THAT HAS REDUCED ITS HOMICIDE RATE EXTRAORDINARILY OVER THE LAST THREE YEARS.

THEIR WHOLE STRATEGY IS THEY EXAMINE CLOSELY A SHOOTING.

THEY LOOK AT THE SOCIAL CONNECTIONS AMONG THE PEOPLE INVOLVED IN THAT SHOOTING, AND THEY LITERALLY GO AND MY BEST FRIEND GOT SHOT.

SO THEY COME AND VISIT ME THE NEXT DAY, AND THEY SAY MALCOLM, I KNOW YOU'RE THINKING OF RETALIATING.

I KNOW THAT YOU POSTED ON SOCIAL MEDIA THAT YOU'RE OUT TO GET WHOEVER SHOT MY BEST FRIEND.

DON'T.

WORK WITH US.

YOU KNOW, TELL US ABOUT YOUR LIFE.

TELL US HOW WE CAN HELP YOU.

HERE IS A PASTOR FROM YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD WHO YOU'VE KNOWN YOUR WHOLE LIFE.

HE IS GOING TO COME AND HAVE A CUP OF COFFEE WITH YOU AND SORT OF WORK YOU THROUGH THIS MOMENT.

THOSE KIND OF INTERVENTIONS ALLOWED BALTIMORE TO LOWER ITS HOMICIDE RATE FROM 350 PEOPLE A YEAR.

THIS YEAR THEY COULD BE UNDER 100.

IT'S AN ASTONISHING TURNAROUND.

AND IT'S ALL ABOUT THOSE KINDS OF PERSONAL INTERVENTIONS.

THE THING YOU TALK ABOUT IN CHICAGO IS A SIMILAR PROGRAM THAT'S SORT OF UPSTREAM EVENT THAT JUST TAKES YOUNG HIGH SCHOOL MEN AND OVER THE COURSE OF A YEAR GIVES THEM AN EXTEND KIND OF COURSE IN CONTROLLING THEIR EMOTIONS.

UNDERSTANDING THEIR EMOTIONS, LEARNING HOW TO DEAL WITH THEM EFFECTIVELY, LEARNING HOW TO MANAGE CONFLICT.

TEACHING THEM THE KIND OF SKILLS THEY WILL NEED WHEN THEY'RE IN THOSE HIGHLY EMOTIONALLY VOLATILE SITUATIONS.

THAT PROGRAM HAS BEEN EMPIRICALLY TESTED AND IS SHOWN TO HAVE DRAMATIC REDUCTIONS IN LEVELS OF CRIMINAL VIOLENCE.

>> SO MUCH OF OUR CONVERSATION IN THE UNITED STATES ABOUT GUN VIOLENCE ENDS UP FOCUSING ON THE TYPE OF WEAPONS USED.

BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT WE SHOULD BE DOING, ESPECIALLY BECAUSE WE'RE FOCUSING ON THE WRONG GUNS.

WHY?

>> YEAH, AT THE BEGINNING OF AMERICA I GO TO A SHOOTING RANGE IN NORTH CAROLINA WITH A GUN EXPERT AND WHO SHOWS ME HOW TO SHOOT AN ASSAULT RIFLE.

AND HE THEN SORT OF INTRODUCES ME TO ASSAULT RIFLES AND WALKS ME THROUGH WHAT THEY DO, WHAT THEY'RE LIKE.

A AND THE POINT OF THAT CHAPTER IS WE HAVE SPENT AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF TIME AND ENERGY IN THIS COUNTRY ON ASSAULT RIFLE BANS.

AND IF YOU LOOK CLOSELY AT THOSE BANS, YOU REALIZE THEY DON'T ACTUALLY BAN ASSAULT RIFLES.

WHAT THEY DO IS THEY BAN CERTAIN KIND OF COSMETIC ATTACHMENTS THAT YOU CAN PUT ON AN ASSAULT RIFLE THAT MAKES IT LOOK UGLIER, OR SCARIER, OR COOLER, DEPENDING ON YOUR PERSPECTIVE.

THEY DON'T --AT THE END OF EVERY ASSAULT RIFLE BAN, THERE IS AN APPENDIX THAT LISTS ALL OF THE RIFLES THAT ARE UNAFFECTED BY THE BAN.

IN SOME CASES, THE APPENDIX RUNS FOR 20 PAGES.

IT'S LIKE THE WHOLE THING IS CRAZY.

AND MORE THAN THAT, WE GREATLY OVERESTIMATE THE SIGNIFICANCE OF ASSAULT RIFLES IN THIS COUNTRY'S HOMICIDE PROBLEM.

THEY ARE RARELY USED.

THEY'RE NOT EVEN THE DOMINANT WEAPON IN MASS SHOOTINGS.

HANDGUNS ARE THE DOMINANT WEAPON.

MORE PEOPLE ARE KILLED BY HANDGUNS IN MASS SHOOTINGS THAN ARE KILLED BY ASSAULT RIFLES.

IT'S AN EXAMPLE OF HOW WE'RE WELL MEANING ATTEMPTS TO DEAL WITH THIS COUNTRY'S VIOLENCE PROBLEM MISSED THE MARK BECAUSE WE'RE NOT PAYING ATTENTION TO THE NATURE OF THE PROBLEM.

WE'RE NOT LOOKING CLOSELY AT WHAT THESE BILLS SAY, AND ALSO, WE'RE NOT LOOKING CLOSELY AT WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENS IN SOMETHING LIKE A MASS SHOOTING.

>> I WONDER HOW DOES RACE AND CLASS PLAY INTO ALL THESE DIFFERENT THINGS THAT YOU FOUND?

SOME OF THE SHORTCUTS THAT WE'RE TAKING TO IMAGINE WHAT THE GUN PROBLEM IS AND WHAT THE SOLUTION SHOULD BE.

ARE WE MISSING SOMETHING?

SHOULD WE BE THINKING ABOUT MORE?

>> ONE OF THE THINGS I WONDERED IS I FEEL LIKE MANY AMERICANS, MANY KIND OF MIDDLE CLASS PRIVILEGED AMERICANS HAVE DONE A VERY EFFECTIVE JOB AT INSULATING THEMSELVES FROM THE REALITY OF THE GUN VIOLENCE PROBLEM IN THIS COUNTRY.

SO IF YOU TALK TO, YOU KNOW, A STANDARD MIDDLE CLASS FAMILY AND ASK THEM WHAT DO THEY FEAR, MANY OF THEM WILL SAY THAT THEY FEAR MASS SHOOTINGS IN SCHOOLS, RIGHT.

BECAUSE THEY READ ABOUT IT ALL THE TIME.

>> YEAH.

>> IN FACT, YOU KNOW, THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE DIED IN MASS SHOOTINGS IN AMERICAN SCHOOLS OVER THE LAST 30 YEARS IS, I MEAN, IT'S A LOT, BUT THAT IS DWARFED, DWARFED BY THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE DIED BECAUSE OF GUNS IN OTHER SETTINGS.

IT'S LESS THAN 1% OF THE PROBLEM.

THE IDEA THAT A PRINCIPLE FEAR OF A LARGE PERCENTAGE OF AMERICANS, PRIVILEGED AMERICANS ABOUT CRIME IS CENTERED ON A PROBLEM THAT IS LESS THAN 1% OF THE ISSUE, THAT'S --THAT'S A PROBLEM, RIGHT?

>> YEAH.

>> YOU CAN'T -- YOU CAN'T --YOU CAN'T HAVE AN EFFECTIVE CONVERSATION ABOUT HOW TO DEAL WITH THIS WHEN PEOPLE ARE FOCUSING ON A COMPLETELY MARGINAL PART OF THE --OF THE PROBLEM THAT THE COUNTRY FACES.

YOU GOT TO ADDRESS THE REAL PROBLEM FIRST, RIGHT.

AND WE'RE NOT DOING THAT.

WE'RE GETTING DISTRACTED, UNDERSTANDABLY, BUT WE'RE FOCUSING ON THINGS THAT ARE NOT ESSENTIAL IN THE KIND OF BROADER CONTEXT.

>> THE BOOK IS CALLED "THE AMERICAN WAY OF KILLING. "

AUTHOR MALCOLM GLADWELL.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>> THANK YOU.

> >> THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EACH NIGHT.

>> SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.

ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE FROM NEW YORK.

>> "AMANPOUR & CO. "

IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS CANDACE KING WEIR THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND CHARLES ROSENBLUM MONIQUE SCHOEN WARSHAW KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.