>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO. "

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

VIOLENCE IN THE COCKPIT AND A PLUNGING FLIGHT BOUND FOR ISRAEL.

WE HAVE THE DETAILS.

> >> PLUS -- >> MR.

PRESIDENT, YOU MUST BE WORRIED ABOUT THE MIDTERMS.

>> I DON'T WORRY ABOUT ANY OF IT.

>> THE MIDTERMS LOOM WITH RECORD LOW APPROVAL RATINGS FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP AMONG GROWING REPUBLICAN DISCONTENT, GOP STRATEGIST MARC SHORT TELLS ME WHAT THE PARTY NEEDS TO DO NOW.

> >> AND -- >> WITH BELIEF AGAIN, PEOPLE WITH HOPE AGAIN.

>> THE UK'S NEW LABOR MINISTER PROMISES TO DELIVER AT HIS FIRST PARTY CONFERENCE.

CAN HE ADDRESS THE AFFORDABILITY CRISIS AND ECONOMIC GROWTH?

I ASK ECONOMIST AND AUTHOR MARIANA MAZZUCATO.

> >> ALSO AHEAD -- >> TRUMP'S OWN LIVED EXPERIENCE OF THE LAST 18 MONTHS HAS BEEN TRYING TO DO THINGS TO DAMAGE CHINA AND TO DISCOVER THAT THE RESULT WAS HURTING THE UNITED STATES.

>> TAKEAWAYS FROM TRUMP AND XI'S D. C. SUMMIT.

AUTHOR JOSHUA COOPER RAMO DISCUSS U. S.

- CHINA RELATIONS AND HIS NEW BOOK, "DARWIN'S LOCK. "

?

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POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS CANDACE KING WEIR THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND CHARLES ROSENBLUM MONIQUE SCHOEN WARSHAW KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

A FOILED ATTACK, A POTENTIAL HIJACKING.

ACCORDING TO THE ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, A PILOT ON AN ISRAEL-BOUND FLIGHT WAS STABBED BY ANOTHER ONE.

ANOTHER PILOT.

THE FLYDUBAI PLANE WITH NEARLY 200 PEOPLE ABOARD WAS FORCED TO MAKE AN EMERGENCY LANDING IN SAUDI ARABIA AFTER CREWMEMBERS AND PASSENGERS APPARENTLY OVERPOWERED THE ASSAILANT, WHOSE MOTIVE IS STILL UNCLEAR AT THIS TIME.

ISRAELI OFFICIALS SAY IT COULD HAVE BEEN A TERRORIST ATTACK.

MANY OF THOSE PASSENGERS ON BOARD HAVE NOW MADE IT HOME, ARRIVING AT ISRAEL'S BEN GURION AIRPORT IN TEL AVIV.

SO LET'S BRING IN CORRESPONDENT ELENI GIOKOS.

SHE IS COMING TO US FROM DUBAI.

I THINK THAT WAS THE ORIGIN OF THE FLIGHT.

WHAT CAN YOU TELL US, ELENI, FROM WHAT ANY OFFICIALS ARE TELLING YOU ABOUT HOW THIS COULD HAVE HAPPENED LIKE THIS.

>> YEAH, AND WHAT'S INTERESTING IS MOST OF THE INFORMATION THAT WE'RE GETTING IS FROM ISRAELI OFFICIALS, ISRAELI SOURCES, AS WELL AS PASSENGERS AND THEIR EXPERIENCE.

FLYDUBAI, FOR ITS PART, HAS PUT UP TWO PRESS RELEASES.

IN THE MORNING THEY SAID IT WAS AN INCIDENT.

THEY DIDN'T SAY IT WAS A VIOLENT ALTERCATION.

WE ALREADY HAD THAT NEWS FROM ISRAELI OFFICIALS.

ABOUT A COUPLE OF HOURS AGO, THEY PUT OUT ANOTHER PRESS RELEASE, AND THEY SATE WAS AN ALTERCATION.

AND THEY'VE ALSO BEEN VERY CLEAR ABOUT NOT SPECULATING AROUND WHY AND HOW THIS HAPPENED AND TO ALLOW THE INVESTIGATION TO GO THROUGH.

AND FRANKLY, IT FEELS LIKE THIS IS A MESSAGE TO ISRAEL, BECAUSE IT SAYS THAT WE URGE ALL PARTIES TO RETAIN FROM PREMATURE SPECULATION.

WE KNOW THAT ISRAELI SOURCES HAVE BEEN VERY CLEAR AROUND THIS BEING A TERROR ATTACK.

WHAT WE'VE HEARD FROM PASSENGERS WAS ABSOLUTELY HARROWING, CHRISTIANE.

I MEAN, FRANKLY, LOUD SCREAMS WERE HEARD.

EVENTUALLY WHEN THE COCKPIT OPENED UP, STILL NOTE VERY CLEAR ON HOW THAT HAPPENED, BUT PASSENGERS INTERVENED AND WERE ABLE TO NEUTRALIZE THE COPILOT THAT STABBED THE PILOT.

AGAIN, ACCORDING TO ISRAELI OFFICIALS.

AND THEN THERE WERE TWO FLYDUBAI CREWMEMBERS THAT WERE ABLE TO STABILIZE THE PLANE AFTER IT DESCEND DRAMATICALLY BY 17,400 FEET IN TWO MINUTES AND THEN LAND SAFELY IN NORTHWESTERN SAUDI ARABIA.

>> HONESTLY, IT SOUNDS MIRACULOUS, THE WAY THEY MANAGED TO STABILIZE THE PLANE THAT ANOTHER CREW WAS APPARENTLY ON BOARD TO BE ABLE TO DO THAT, AND THAT IT LANDED.

I'M STILL CONFUSED, OR I'M SURE WE ALL ARE.

HOW IS IT THAT IN THE POST-9/11 WORLD THAT SECURE DOOR, YOU KNOW, BETWEEN THE COCKPIT AND THE PLANE, HOW COULD THE PASSENGERS BREACH IT?

THAT WAS A STROKE OF LUCK AS WELL.

>> EXACTLY.

AND AVIATION EXPERTS THAT WE'VE SPOKEN TO SAY THAT EITHER THE PILOTS WAS ABLE TO OPEN IT UP.

BECAUSE THERE IS NOW SORT OF THIS FIREWALL IN PLACE.

YOU CAN ONLY OPEN UP THE COCKPIT FROM INSIDE, I GUESS NOT TAKING INTO ACCOUNT THAT YOU COULD HAVE AN ALTERCATION BETWEEN THE PILOTS.

SO THE HYPOTHESIS IS THAT THEY EITHER USED AN AX, WHICH IS USED FOR EMERGENCIES, THE PASSENGERS AND CREW COULD HAVE USED THAT TO OPEN UP THE DOOR OR THE PILOT WAS ABLE TO BREACH THAT.

THE OTHER SORT OF QUESTIONS THAT WE'RE ASKING WRIGHT NOW IS WHAT WAS THE SOURCE OF THE ARGUMENT AND SORT OF THE ALTERCATION HERE.

BUT WHAT IS VERY TELLING, AND WHEN THIS STORY BROKE, CHRISTIANE, AND WE'RE LOOKING AT THE NUMBERS, WE'RE OKAY, THIS FLIGHT HAD TO DO AN EMERGENCY LANDING.

THE BIG RED FLAG WAS THIS MASSIVE DROP IN THE ALTITUDE.

BUT IT WASN'T ONLY THAT.

ACCORDING TO FLIGHT RADAR, AIRPLANES RELEASE WHAT THEY CALL A SQUAWK CODE.

INITIALLY IT WAS JUST AN EMERGENCY CODE WHICH IS NORMAL AND UNIVERSAL FOR PLANES THAT ARE GOING THROUGH SOME KIND OF EMERGENCY.

BUT THEN IT SHIFTED ITS CODE, WHICH BASICALLY HIGHLIGHTS A HIJACKING POSSIBILITY.

THEN IT CHANGED ITS CODE AGAIN TO JUST AN EMERGENCY.

AND THAT REALLY ACTIVATED EVERYONE IN THE REGION, SPECIFICALLY, THE ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER THAT GONE INTO A CABINET MEETING WITH SECURITY AND THEN FIGHTER JETS, ISRAELI FIGHTER JETS THEN SCRAMBLED TO SEE WHAT WAS GOING ON.

SO THERE IS A LOT OF INTERESTING THINGS THAT TRANSPIRED.

BUT I THINK AS WE START TO GET MORE INFORMATION SPECIFICALLY FROM PASSENGERS IN TERMS OF HOW HARROWING IT WAS, THE PEOPLE THAT WERE CLOSE TO THE COCKPIT AND HAD THAT FIRSTHAND EXPERIENCE, THE IMAGES WE'RE SEEING PEOPLE COVERED IN BLOOD SHOWS THAT THIS WAS ABSOLUTELY SERIOUS AND COULD HAVE BEEN A TRAGEDY HAD THE PILOTS, THE EXTRA PILOTS ON THE AIRCRAFT NOT STABILIZED THIS PLANE.

>> I'M SURE IT'S DIFFICULT AND I'D LOVE TO HEAR FROM AN AVIATION EXPERT.

I MEAN, TO PLUNGE TWO-THIRDS PRETTY MUCH OF THE ALTITUDE, IT MUST BE --THERE MUST BE A POINT OF NO RETURN BELOW WHICH YOU CAN'T STABILIZE OR BRING A PLANE UP.

SO THAT ALSO WAS AMAZING.

THE OTHER THING IS, YOU KNOW, OBVIOUSLY, ISRAEL DOES NOT HAVE DIPLOMATIC RELATIONS WITH SAUDI ARABIA.

NONE OF THOSE PASSENGERS ON BOARD WOULD HAVE HAD ANY VISAS OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT.

CLEARLY IT TURNED OUT FINE AND THEY WERE ALL TAKEN BACK HOME, BUT THAT MUST HAVE BEEN PRETTY POLITICALLY FRAUGHT AS WELL.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

AND YOU'RE RIGHT TO SAY SAUDI ARABIA AND ISRAEL HAVE NOT NORMALIZED RELATIONS.

IT'S A HOT BUTTON ISSUE.

WE KNOW PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS BEEN TALKING ABOUT THIS FOR QUITE SOME TIME THERE IS A LOT OF PRESSURE ON SAUDI ARABIA.

WE KNOW THE UAE HAS NORMALIZED WITH ISRAEL.

THAT'S WHY WE HAVE FLIGHTS FROM DUBAI THAT HEAD INTO TEL AVIV.

IT'S A VERY POPULAR ROUTE.

THEN YOU HAVE A PLANE THAT WAS DESTINED FOR ISRAEL WITH A LOT OF ISRAELIS ON BOARD THAT NOW ARE STUCK IN SAUDI ARABIA.

THERE IS PRECEDENT, THOUGH, IN TERMS OF SAUDI ARABIA ASSISTING ISRAELIS TO GET OUT AND REPATRIATE BACK TO ISRAEL THERE HAVE BEEN TWO OTHER INCIDENTS OVER THE YEARS.

AND THIS HAS GONE VERY SMOOTHLY.

SO THERE IS A LOT OF DIPLOMATIC EFFORT THAT GOES ON BEHIND THE SCENES.

I SPOKE TO ONE POLITICAL ANALYST A SHORT WHILE AGO WHO SAYS TO ME THAT SAUDI ARABIA IS ALSO TRYING NOT TO SORT OF SHOW AT LEAST PUBLICLY THAT THEY'RE GETTING CLOSER TO ISRAEL.

SO THAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT AT A TIME WHERE WE ARE SEEING ENORMOUS GEOPOLITICAL TENSIONS HERE WITH THE IRAN WAR.

SO THERE IS A LOT OF DIPLOMATIC ISSUES, APART FROM THIS BEING AN AVIATION PROBLEM.

YOU MENTIONED 9/11.

YOU MENTIONED HOW MANY FIREWALLS HAVE BEEN PUT INTO PLACE INTO AIRPORTS AND VETTING OF HIGHLIGHTS.

WHAT WENT WRONG HERE IS GOING TO BE THE BIG QUESTION.

I MEAN, ISRAELI OFFICIALS SAY THAT THE COPILOT WAS AN AMANI NATIONAL.

NOW THERE IS AN INVESTIGATION INTO.

THIS HOW COULD AN AMANI NATIONAL BE A PILOT.

THEY HAVE NOT GIVEN A LOT OF FLIGHT INFORMATION AROUND THIS.

WE REALLY ARE JUST RELYING ON ISRAELI SOURCES RIGHT NOW AS WE'RE WAITING TO HEAR MORE OF THE NEWS.

THE ONE GOOD PIECE OF NEWS THAT WE'VE SEEN IS THE PASSENGERS LANDING AT BEN GURION AIRPORT.

AND WHAT'S VERY STRIKING IS THERE ARE A LOT OF CHILDREN ON BOARD THIS FLIGHT.

ONE CAN ONLY IMAGINE HOW ABSOLUTELY HARROWING IT MUST HAVE BEEN, CHRISTIANE.

>> INDEED.

INDEED, INDEED.

OH, TERRIBLE.

BUT AT LEAST IT SEEMS ALL THESE PEOPLE HAVE GOT HOME SAFE AND SOUND, DESPITE SOME OF THE SCRAPES.

I MEAN, IT'S JUST INCREDIBLE THAT THEY MANAGED TO SURVIVE AND KEEP THAT PLANE IN THE AIR UNTIL IT LANDED.

OBVIOUSLY, ELENI, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

OBVIOUSLY THE BIG QUESTION IS WHO WAS THAT ASSAILANT, HOW DID HE GET INTO A COCKPIT WITH A WEAPON, IF THAT'S WHAT HE HAD, AND WHAT WAS THE MOTIVE.

WE'LL WAIT TO HEAR AS SOON AS WE CAN THE ANSWER TO THOSE QUESTIONS.

ELENI, THANKS AGAIN FOR BEING WITH US.

> >> NOW, AMERICANS GO TO THE POLLS IN JUST OVER A MONTH FOR THE MIDTERMS, BOTH IN THE UNITED STATES AND HERE ABROAD, THEY ARE WIDELY VIEWED AS A REFERENDUM ON PRESIDENT TRUMP'S POLICIES.

FROM THE COST OF LIVING TO SOARING ENERGY PRICES AND THE PRESIDENT'S OWN LOW APPROVAL RATINGS.

REPUBLICANS FACE AN UPHILL BATTLE.

IN SOME OF THE MOST COMPETITIVE DISTRICTS, GOP CANDIDATES ARE NOW DISTANCING THEMSELVES FROM THE PRESIDENT'S RECORD, CHIEF AMONG THEM HIS WAR ON IRAN AND THE POCKETBOOK FALLOUT.

FOR MORE ON ALL OF THIS, MARC SHORT JOINS ME FROM WASHINGTON.

HE'S CHAIRMAN OF ADVANCING AMERICAN FREEDOM, AND HE SERVED AS CHIEF OF STAFF FOR VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE DURING TRUMP 1.

0.

MARC SHORT, WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

>> CAN I JUST FIRST ASK YOU, LET'S STAY IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

GOOD TO HAVE YOU ON.

THIS IRAN WAR IS REALLY NOW BECOMING SOMETHING THAT REPUBLICANS CAN'T JUST SIT BACK AND KIND OF LOOK AT.

A LOT OF THEM, ANY WAY, ACTIVELY DISTANCING THEMSELVES FROM THE FALLOUT.

TALK TO ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE IMPACT THAT'S HAVING ON THE MIDTERMS.

>> WELL, I THINK IT'S HARD TO DIVORCE THE WAR FROM THE PRESIDENT'S TRADE POLICY IN A LOT OF WAYS, CHRISTIANE, BECAUSE I THINK THERE IS A LOT OF FOCUS RIGHT NOW ON HOW HIGH DIESEL PRICES ARE AND THE IMPACT THAT'S HAVING ON FARMERS, WHAT'S HAPPENING TO FERTILIZER COSTS.

BUT SO MUCH OF THAT WAS ALREADY --WAS ALREADY A PRECURSOR IN THE SENSE THAT THE TRADE POLICY CREATED A BIG CHALLENGE FOR FARMERS BECAUSE AS PART OF THE RETALIATION FROM THIS GLOBAL WAR ON TRADE IS A LOT OF THEIR MARKETS THEN WERE SHUT DOWN AND THEY DIDN'T HAVE ANYWHERE TO EXPORT THEM.

NOW YOU'RE COMPOUNDING THAT WITH THE EXTRA PRICES.

AND I THINK WHAT YOU'RE SEEING IN AMERICA IS WHERE RELIABLY RED REPUBLICAN STATES IN THE HEARTLAND OF AMERICA WHERE YOU HAVE SOME OF THE MOST CONTESTED RACES THIS FALL.

UNDOUBTEDLY, THE PRICE OF THE WAR WITH IRAN IS SOMETHING AMERICANS ARE FEELING FROM AN AFFORDABILITY PERSPECTIVE.

BUT I THINK IN A LOT OF WAYS, IT WAS ALREADY ELEVATED BECAUSE OF THE TRADE WAR.

>> SO, OF COURSE, BY TRADE WAR, YOU MEAN THE THING THAT INVOLVED ALL THESE TARIFFS AND CAUSED SUCH PAIN TO AMERICANS.

>> THE SO-CALLED LIBERATION DAY.

>> RIGHT.

YEP.

I'LL LET YOU SAY SO-CALLED.

IT CERTAINLY HAS BACKFIRED ON MANY AMERICAN BUSINESSES AND FARMERS, AS YOU SAY.

AND FRANKLY, THE WHOLE GLOBAL ECONOMY, AS WE CAN SEE.

BUT I WANT TO PLAY A FEW LITTLE SOUND BITES, FRAGMENTS THAT WE'VE PUT TOGETHER REGARDING ACTUAL REPUBLICANS WHO ARE RUNNING OR WHO ARE IN OFFICE TALKING ABOUT THE IMPACT OF THE IRAN WAR AND ALL THE OTHER THINGS YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT IN TERMS OF INFLATION AND THE PRICES AT THE PUMPS.

>> THE PRESIDENT HAS I MUST SAY IN REGARDS TO THIS.

BUT I JUST BELIEVE THAT WE SHOULD BE EXITING IRAN, THAT IT'S TIME TO MOVE ON, TIME TO COME HOME, TAKE CARE OF BUSINESS HERE IN AMERICA.

>> OPERATION EPIC FURY WAS AN EPIC SUCCESS.

AND BY THE WAY GLOBAL COMMAND WERE AT THE CENTER OF THAT SUCCESS.

THE WORLD IS SAFER BECAUSE OF IT.

BUT NOW WE'VE GOT BRING THAT TO A RESOLUTION.

AND THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ NOT BEING OPEN AFFECTS COMMERCE.

IT DIRECTLY AFFECTS GAS PRICES AND FUEL PRICES, AND ALSO, YOU KNOW, THE PRICE OF GROCERIES.

>> I THINK THAT'S BEEN A BIT OF A DISAPPOINTMENT TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE THAT WE AREN'T AT THE END, ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY SEE GAS PRICES GOING UP.

SO WOULD I TELL THE PRESIDENT END THE WAR NOW?

YES, I WOULD.

>> SO MARC SHORT, THAT'S A GROUP OF CONGRESS PEOPLE, INCLUDING THE HOUSE SPEAKER, MIKE JOHNSON WAS IN THE MIDDLE THERE.

TELL ME THE KNOT THEY SEEM TO BE IN, BECAUSE THEY COULD HAVE PULLED BACK MUCH EARLIER.

THIS WAS UNPOPULAR WITH THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, INCLUDING REPUBLICANS FROM THE VERY BEGINNING, UNUSUALLY, BECAUSE WARS ARE USUALLY RALLY AROUND THE FLAG, AT LEAST AT THE BEGINNING.

WHY IS IT ONLY NOW ON THE BRINK OF POSSIBLY DISASTROUS MIDTERMS THAT THEY'RE BEGINNING TO PUT THEIR FOOT IN THE WATER ABOUT THIS?

>> WELL, CHRISTIANE, I THINK IT'S BECAUSE OF THE MIDTERMS, BUT I THINK THAT THE WORD YOU USED THERE IN THE BEGINNING IS WHAT'S MOST IMPORTANT.

I PERHAPS COME AT THIS FROM A DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE.

I'M SUPPORTIVE OF THE PRESIDENT'S EFFORTS HERE.

I THINK THAT THERE COULD BE SIGNIFICANT PEACE DIVIDEND INTO THE FUTURE, AND THE REALITY IS THE ECONOMIC SANCTIONS ARE SHOWING THEY'RE ACTUALLY HAVING SIGNIFICANT IMPACT ON IRAN.

AND SO I THINK THE POLICY AND WHAT THE MILITARY HAS DONE HAS BEEN EXTRAORDINARILY SUCCESSFUL IN THE MILITARY STRIKES.

BUT WHERE I THINK THE ADMINISTRATION FAILED WAS ON THE FRONT END.

THERE WAS NEVER THE TIME OR EFFORT PUT IN TO TELL THE AMERICAN PEOPLE HERE'S WHAT I HOPE TO ACHIEVE.

HERE'S WHAT THE COST TO AMERICA WILL BE.

HERE'S WHAT ELEVATED ENERGY PRICES COULD LOOK LIKE.

INSTEAD, I THINK THE ADMINISTRATION GAVE MULTIPLE DIFFERENT EXPLANATIONS.

AT ONE POINT IT WAS REGIME CHANGE.

AT ANOTHER POINT IT WAS TO DENY NUCLEAR WEAPONS.

AT ANOTHER POINT IT WAS TO DEGRADE THEIR MILITARY CAPACITY.

I THINK IRAN FORE47 YEARS HAS BEEN A NEMESIS THAT HAS BEEN KILLING AND MURDERING INNOCENT WESTERNERS.

AND I THINK ACTUALLY THE PRESIDENT --THE POLICY HERE IS ACTUALLY A GOOD ONE.

BUT I THINK ON THE FRONT END, THERE IS NEVER AN EXPLANATION WITH THE AMERICAN PEOPLE TO SAY HERE'S WHAT THE OBJECTIVE IS, HERE'S WHAT WE'RE GOING ABOUT TRYING TO ACHIEVE.

NOW YOU'RE A MONTH OUT FROM ELECTION DAY, AND THE NUMBER ONE AMERICANS ELECTED PRESIDENT TRUMP FOR, ONE WAS TO SECURE THE BORDER AND THE SECOND WAS TO FIX THE INFLATION THAT SKYROCKETED DURING THE BIDEN YEARS.

AND YOU NOW ARE NOT SEEING THE INFLATION RESOLVE.

YOU'RE SEEING AN AFFORDABILITY ISSUE THAT IS STILL NUMBER ONE FOR THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, AND THE WAR IN IRAN, HIGHER ENERGY PRICES JUST FEED INTO THAT.

I THINK THAT'S WHY YOU'RE SEEING AT THIS POINT MEMBERS LOOK TO HAVE SOME DISTANCE.

>> LET'S TAKE YOU AT FACE VALUE AND SAY THAT THIS WAS A SUCCESSFUL OPERATION AND THAT IT IS DOING WHAT THE PRESIDENT HOPED, BUT THAT JURY IS STILL OUT.

BUT MORE TO THE POINT, KNOWING WHAT THE PEOPLE THINK ABOUT IT, ADDERALLYS HE SAID THAT THE COSTS LITERALLY ARE, QUOTE, INEXPENSIVE COMPARED TO WHAT DIVIDEND THEY WILL PAY BACK.

SO EVEN NOW IT SEEMS THAT HE IS NOT WILLING TO PULL BACK, AND IT SEEMS THAT HE IS DOUBLING DOWN ON THE ACTUAL WAR OR THE ECONOMIC BLOCKADE OF IRAN OR WHATEVER IT IS.

YOU HEARD AT THE U. N. HE VOWED TO ANNIHILATE IRAN.

SO NONE OF US, INCLUDING I SUPPOSE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, PERHAPS YOURSELF ACTUALLY KNOW WHAT THE NEXT STEPS ARE FOR THE PRESIDENT.

IN OTHER WORDS, HE SEEMS TO BE DOUBLING DOWN ON THE THINGS THAT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, INCLUDING REPUBLICAN VOTERS ARE VERY CONCERNED ABOUT RIGHT NOW.

>> AGAIN, CHRISTIANE, I CONCUR THAT I THINK THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF MIXED MESSAGING.

I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT IS MOST DISAPPOINTING IS UNFULFILLED EXPECTATIONS.

AND I THINK THE PRESIDENT SET EXPECTATION, THIS WOULD BE SOLVED IN THE MATTER OF DAYS OR I HAVE THE CAPACITY TO ANNIHILATE.

I THINK THE MESSAGING HAS BEEN OFF.

I JUST SEPARATE THAT FROM THE OPERATION ITSELF.

AND AGAIN, I THINK THERE WAS NOT A CLEAR EXPLANATION PROVIDED ON THE FRONT END TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ABOUT WHY THIS ENGAGEMENT'S IMPORTANT.

AND I THINK THAT THERE COULD BE, AGAIN, SIGNIFICANT PEACE DIVIDENDS IN THE FUTURE YEARS.

BUT THAT CASE HAS NOT BEEN MADE TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

SO HERE YOU ARE AGAIN A MONTH OUT FROM ELECTION DAY.

WHAT AMERICANS SEE IS THEY SEE HIGHER GAS PRICES.

THEY SEE HIGHER PRICES AT THE GROCERY STORE BECAUSE IT COSTS MORE TO TRANSPORT GOODS TO THE STORE.

AND SO WHAT THEY'RE SIMPLY FEELING IS A LACK OF CLARITY OF WHAT THE OBJECTIVE IS AND ALSO FEELING HIGHER PRICES.

I THINK WHAT WAS MISSED WAS AN OPPORTUNITY ON THE FRONT END TO GO TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AND SAY HERE'S THE THREAT AND HERE'S WHAT I'M GOING TO DO ABOUT IT.

>> LET'S DRILL DOWN ON SOME SPECIFIC ISSUES QUOTING SOME OF THE REPUBLICANS WHO ARE UP FOR ELECTION.

SO LET'S TAKE KEN PAXTON, ALREADY A CONTROVERSIAL TYPE, BUT HE IS A TOP TRUMP LOYALIST.

HE WAS BACKED BY THE PRESIDENT DURING THE PRIMARY.

HE WAS HEARD IN A PRIVATE RECORDING SAYING THAT TRUMP HAS BEEN, QUOTE, HURTING GOP CANDIDATES' POLLING AFTER HIS SUMMIT, THAT SORT OF MIDTERM MAGA SUMMIT HE HAD, CONVENTION EARLIER THIS MONTH.

AND THEN DATA CENTERS, THE WHOLE COUNTRY --OKAY, I'M EXAGGERATING, BUT THERE IS SIGNIFICANT PUSHBACK IN THE COUNTRY, BIPARTISAN PUSHBACK ON DATA CENTERS, SIGNIFICANT FEAR ABOUT THE FUTURE OF AI AND WHAT THESE DATA CENTERS PARTICULARLY WILL DO.

IN OHIO, 75% OF VOTERS OPPOSE CONSTRUCTION AND OTHER STATES SHARE THAT TREND.

BUT HE CLAIMS ALL OF THIS IS A HOAX.

IS HE -- HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THAT FOR A PRESIDENT TRYING TO LEAD HIS PARTY TO SUCCESS?

>> WELL, LET'S SEPARATE THE TWO.

I THINK THAT KEN PAXTON ARGUING THAT SOMEBODY ELSE IS A DRAG ON THE TICKET IS QUITE IRONIC BECAUSE I THINK MOST WOULD AGREE THAT TEXAS HAS BEEN A REPUBLICAN STATE, IT LIKELY WOULD BE WITH A DIFFERENT NOMINEE.

I THINK WHEN IT COMES TO THE DATA CENTERS, THE REALITY IS THAT CHINA WANTS TO WIN THE WAR ON AI.

THEY WANT TO BE AHEAD OF US.

AND THERE'S ACTUALLY REPORTING OUT TODAY ABOUT HOW CHINA AND RUSSIA AND IRAN ARE COLLABORATING.

SO MORE AND MORE DISCONTENT AMONGST AMERICANS ABOUT DATA CENTERS AND THE GROWTH OF AI.

I THINK THAT THERE IS NATURALLY A LOT OF FEAR ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING WITH AI WHEN YOU HAVE ANTHROPIC TALKING ABOUT SORT OF THE END OF THE WORLD OR BILL GATES GOING ON NBC AND SAYING THAT UP TO A BILLION PEOPLE COULD DIE.

THAT'S GOING CREATE A LOT OF UNREST.

WHAT HAS NOT BEEN FOCUSED ON OR DISCUSSED IS THE REALITY OF WHAT THE ECONOMIC BENEFIT HAS BEEN WITH THE GROWTH OF THESE DATA CENTERS.

IN MANY RURAL COMMUNITIES, YOU'VE SEEN SIGNIFICANT REVENUE COME IN, PROPERTY TAXES DECLINED SIGNIFICANTLY, AND MANY OF THE MYTHS ABOUT WATER USAGE ARE JUST MISPLACED.

BUT WE'RE IN A GLOBAL COMPETITION HERE WITH CHINA WHO WOULD LIKE NOTHING MORE THAN FOR THE BUREAUCRATS IN WASHINGTON, D. C. TO REGULATE IT.

AND TO SLOW IT DOWN.

AND I DON'T THINK, AGAIN, THAT THERE HAS BEEN A COHESIVE ARGUMENT PROVIDED OTHER THAN TO SIMPLY DISMISS THE COMPLAINTS AS A HOAX.

AND WHEN A LOT OF AMERICANS HAVE CONCERNS AND FEARS, YOU NEED TO MORE THAN SAY IT'S A HOAX.

YOU NEED TO EXPLAIN, HERE IS AGAIN WHAT THE ALTERNATIVE, HERE IS WHO WE'RE COMPETING WITH, AND HERE'S WHY IT'S IMPORTANT THAT AMERICA STAY IN FRONT IN THIS RACE.

AND NOW I THINK YOU JUST SEE SIMPLY A LOT OF REPUBLICANS WHO ARE FEARFUL ABOUT THE MIDTERM RESULTS, AND THEY'RE TRYING TO GLOB ON TO KIND OF A POPULIST APPEAL.

AND I THINK IT LOOKS FAIRLY OPPORTUNISTIC AT THIS POINT.

>> AND YOU WERE SAYING JUST AT THE BEGINNING OF THIS RESPONSE, YOU SORT OF SAID, YOU KNOW, PAXTON HIMSELF IS A DRAG ON THE TICKET.

BUT DON'T FORGET, IT WAS PRESIDENT TRUMP WHO SUPPORTED HIM IN HIS PRIMARY AGAINST THE SITTING SENATOR FROM THE REPUBLICAN SIDE.

>> HE DID.

HE DID.

BUT CHRISTIANE, EVEN IN THAT CASE, THE PRESIDENT ENDORSED PAXTON WHEN IT BECAME CLEAR THAT PAXTON WAS GOING TO WIN THERE IS A LOT OF NARRATIVE THAT WAS TRUMP.

THE REALITY IS HE WAS SORT OF RUNNING THE FRONT OF THE PARADE BECAUSE OF WHERE IT WAS GOING.

NOW IT IS A FAIR ARGUMENT TO SAY THAT TRUMP COULD HAVE SUPPORTED CORNYN EARLIER, AND THAT WOULD HAVE MADE A DIFFERENCE.

BUT HIS ENDORSEMENT CAME SO LATE, IT WAS PRETTY MUCH BECAUSE HE KNEW IT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN.

>> ALL RIGHT.

OKAY.

I'M NOT SURE WHICH IS BETTER, THAT HE DID THAT OR HE SHOULD HAVE DONE THE OTHER ONE WHO MIGHT HAVE ACTUALLY WON.

BUT LET ME ASK YOU ACTUALLY ABOUT THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT, BECAUSE AS YOU SAID RIGHTLY, MANY PEOPLE VOTED FOR HIM BECAUSE OF HIS PROMISE ABOUT SECURING THE BORDER.

BUT THAT ACCORDING TO MANY AMERICANS HAS GONE TOO FAR.

AND EVEN SOME OF HIS MOST LOYAL REPUBLICAN, YOU KNOW, BACKERS, LEGISLATORS FROM SOME OF THE MOST IMPORTANT STATES LIKE FLORIDA, FOR INSTANCE, YOU KNOW REPRESENTATIVE SALAZAR HAS COME OUT AND TRIED TO TELL HIM, NOT ATTACKING HIM, BUT TRIED TO TELL HIM THAT HIS POLICY HAS JUST GONE TOO FAR AND HISPANICS ARE REALLY REACTING.

HERE'S WHAT SHE SAID ABOUT IT.

>> MR.

PRESIDENT, SOME OF YOUR IMMIGRATION AND ENFORCEMENT EFFORTS HAVE GONE TOO FAR.

BE CAREFUL WHAT YOUR ADVISERS ARE TELLING YOU ABOUT IMMIGRATION POLICIES.

THE SAME HISPANICS WHO HELP YOU'D GET TO THE WHITE HOUSE IN 2024 FEEL BETRAYED TODAY.

>> OKAY.

SO THAT'S A CAMPAIGN AD, BUT IT'S PRETTY EXPLOSIVE.

IT'S DIRECTLY TALKING TO THE PRESIDENT.

NOT ATTACKING HIM, BUT SAYING YOU NEED BETTER ADVICE AND BETTER ADVISERS.

>> YEAH.

>> WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THAT?

AND DOES THE PRESIDENT NEED BETTER ADVICE AND BETTER ADVISERS?

>> I THINK THAT THE PRESIDENT HAD HISTORIC GAINS AMONG THE HISPANIC COMMUNITY IN '24, AND I THINK CONTRARY TO WHAT A LOT OF PEOPLE PERCEIVE, THE REALITY IS THAT FOR MANY HISPANICS, THEY CAME HERE LEGALLY, AND THEY'RE VERY CONCERNED ABOUT HOW OUT OF CONTROL THE BORDER WAS DURING THE BIDEN YEARS.

THEY WANTED IT FIXED.

BUT CHRISTIANE, I THINK THE DISCONNECT IS THAT I THINK AMERICANS WANTED THE BORDER FIXED, BUT THERE WAS NEVER THE SAME SUPPORT FOR DEPORTATIONS.

AND MANY OF MY FRIENDS ON THE RIGHT WILL SUGGEST THAT WE SHOULD BE CONTINUING AT THIS SAME LEVEL.

AND I'M NOT GOING TO ARGUE THE POLICY AS MUCH AS THE POLITICS AND THE MESSAGING HERE IN THAT AMERICANS WANTED THE BORDER SECURE, AND TRUMP WAS ABLE TO DO THAT WITH EXECUTIVE ACTION QUICKLY.

THE SUPPORT FOR DEPORTATIONS, YOU KNOW, HAS NOT BEEN THERE PUBLICLY.

AND SO I THINK WHAT YOU'RE SEEING IS THAT THE PRESIDENT HAS HAD SIGNIFICANT EROSION AMONG HIS HISPANIC SUPPORT, AND I THINK THAT THE ISSUE THAT WAS A SIGNIFICANT STRENGTH FOR HIM IS A LITTLE BIT UPSIDE DOWN NOW.

>> I THINK THAT'S A REALLY IMPORTANT DISTINCTION, BECAUSE IN MANY COUNTRIES, INCLUDING OVER HERE, SECURE BORDERS VERY IMPORTANT POLITICAL ISSUES, AND SURELY, THAT IS THE CASE IN THE U. S. , BUT YOU'RE SAYING THE DEPORTATION PART OF IT, THE UGLINESS ON THE STREETS, ESPECIALLY SOMETIMES AGAINST AMERICAN CITIZENS IS JUST, YOU KNOW, A STEP TOO FAR.

SO I HEAR YOU ON THAT.

FINALLY, IF THEY GET A SHELLACKING, AS PRESIDENT OBAMA ADMITTED HE GOT BACK IN 20 WHATEVER IT WAS, WHAT SHOULD THE REPUBLICANS DO?

WHAT IS THE FUTURE OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, ESPECIALLY POST TRUMP, WHO'S DOMINATED THE REPUBLICAN PARTY FOR TEN YEARS?

>> WELL, CHRISTIANE, I THINK THERE IS GOING TO BE A REAL SOUL-SEARCHING.

I THINK YOU'VE SEEN A RISE OF THE POPULIST RIGHT, AND I THINK THAT THERE IS A LOT OF A GROWING CONSENSUS THAT WE NEED TO GET BACK TO THOSE TIME HONORED LIMITED GOVERNMENT PRINCIPLES THAT MADE THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AS SUCCESSFUL AS IT WAS.

I WOULD ADD TO THAT.

I THINK RIGHT NOW IT'S CONFUSING BECAUSE I THINK ONE OF OUR STRONGEST ARGUMENTS IN THIS CYCLE IS THAT THE DEMOCRATS HAVE ACTUALLY NOMINATED CANDIDATES WHO FLY UNDER THE BANNER OF DEMOCRAT SOCIALISTS OF AMERICA.

I THINK MANY OF THEIR POLICIES POSE SIGNIFICANT THREATS TO OUR COUNTRY AND ARE WRONGHEADED.

BUT IT'S DIFFICULT WHEN WE, THIS ADMINISTRATION IS BASICALLY HAVING MORE AND MORE RECORD NUMBERS OF GOVERNMENT TAKING OVER PRIVATE SECTOR COMPANIES, PUSHING FOR PRICE CONTROLS.

THE VICE PRESIDENT J. D. VANCE MOST RECENTLY TALKED ABOUT EXPANSION OF ADVERTISEMENT PROGRAMS, RECORD SPENDING AND SIGNIFICANT DEBTS, A TRADE POLICY THAT'S SUPPORTED BY BERNIE SANDERS AND ELIZABETH WARREN.

SO WHEN YOU BASICALLY ARE PUTTING FORWARD THESE POLICIES, IT'S HARD FOR US TO MAKE THE CASE HEY, LOOK HOW DANGEROUS THE DEMOCRAT SOCIALISTS ARE BECAUSE CANDIDLY, WE'RE BLURRING THE LINES.

WE'RE NOT OFFERING A CLEAR CONTRAST TO SAY HERE IS A VISION FOR A FREER ECONOMY, FOR GREATER PROSPERITY, AND FOR A LIMITED GOVERNMENT.

WHAT THIS ADMINISTRATION HAS BEEN PUSHING THE ECONOMY IS SO MUCH GOVERNMENT INTERFERENCE THAT FRANKLY, IT MAKES BERNIE SANDERS AND ELIZABETH WARREN BLUSH.

>> ON THAT NOTE, MARC SHORT, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

> >> HERE IN THE UK, PRIME MINISTER ANDY BURNHAM IS TRYING TO STIR UP A FEELING OF HOPE.

TAKE A LISTEN.

>> TODAY WE DRAW THE LINE ON A DECADE OF DIVISION.

WE STOP DOOM SCROLLING ON POSTS RUNNING BRITAIN DOWN, AND WE PUT THE COUNTRY ON A NEW PATH.

BRITAIN WITH BELIEF AGAIN, PEOPLE WITH HOPE AGAIN.

[ APPLAUSE ] >> BUT IS THIS A TALL ORDER?

UK BORROWING HAS HIT AN ALL-TIME HIGH THIS WEEK AS DID THE PRICE OF DIESEL, THANKS IN PART TO AMERICA AND ISRAEL'S WAR ON IRAN.

MY NEXT GUEST HAS A PLAN FOR THE ECONOMY.

SHE IS THE RENOWNED ECONOMIST MARIANA MAZZUCATO, AND CHEVROLETS IT ALL OUT IN HER NEW BOOK, "THE COMMON GOOD ECONOMY. "

SHE IS ALSO A PROFESSOR IN THE ECONOMICS OF INNOVATION AND VALUE AT UNIVERSITY COLLEGE OF LONDON.

AND SHE IS JOINING ME RIGHT NOW.

MARIANA MAZZUCATO, WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

IT'S ALWAYS GREAT TO TALK TO YOU, CHRISTIANE.

>> AND IT COULDN'T BE A BETTER TIME TO TALK, BECAUSE IT'S ALL ABOUT THE ECONOMY RIGHT NOW EVERYWHERE, EVERYWHERE YOU LOOK.

WHAT IS GOING WRONG THAT YOU CAN TELL US IN SORT OF A NUTSHELL, PARTICULARLY --WELL, ACCORDING TO YOUR BOOK, ABOUT HERE AND THE UNITED STATES?

>> SURE.

I MEAN, FIRST OF ALL, GLOBALLY, WE ARE ABSOLUTELY NOT EVEN CLOSE TO SOLVING THE PROBLEMS THAT IN 2015 EVERY SINGLE COUNTRY, INCLUDING THE UNITED STATES, INCLUDING THE UNITED KINGDOM SET OUT TO SOLVE, RIGHT.

SO IT WAS CLIMATE CHANGE, LIFE BELOW OUR OCEANS, GENDER PARITY, NO HUNGER, NO POVERTY AND SO ON.

WE ARE CURRENTLY PROJECTED TO CAUSE ABOUT 83 MILLION EXCESS DEATHS, NOT JUST DEATHS, EXCESS DEATHS BY THE END OF THE CENTURY DUE TO CLIMATE CHANGE.

ABOUT 4.

5 BILLION PEOPLE LACK FULL ACCESS TO ESSENTIAL HEALTH SERVICES.

TWO BILLION PEOPLE DON'T EVEN HAVE ACCESS TO CLEAN DRINKING WATER.

SO THAT'S THE GLOBAL PICTURE.

BUT WHAT YOU ALSO SEE IN THE ELECTIONS BOTH IN THE U. S. , IN BRAZIL ON SUNDAY, IN THE UK RIGHT NOW IN TERMS OF THIS NEW PRIME MINISTER SETTING OUT HIS AGENDA IS THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE ALSO JUST DON'T FEEL VERY GOOD ABOUT THEMSELVES.

IN OTHER WORDS, THEY HAVE NOT BEEN FELT TO FEEL VALUED.

IF YOU THINK OF WHAT HAPPENED IN THE U. S. WITH BIDEN'S ECONOMIC PLAN, EVEN IN THOSE RED STATES WHERE IT WAS STARTING TO HAVE AN ECONOMIC EFFECT, PEOPLE VOTED FOR TRUMP.

WE NEED TO START ASKING OURSELVES IT'S NOT JUST THE ECONOMY, STUPID, THAT FAMOUS QUOTE, IT'S ALSO ARE WE PUTTING PEOPLE, LITERALLY THEIR LIVES, HOW THEY FEEL EVERY SINGLE DAY, WHETHER THEIR KIDS HAVE ACCESS TO HEALTHY SUSTAINABLE LUNCH AT SCHOOL, WHETHER THEIR LIVING STANDARDS ARE ACTUALLY INCREASING OR THERE ARE JUST PROMISES FOR IT, WHETHER THE ENERGY BILLS ARE GOING UP OR DOWN, MORE THAN JUST A BLIP, BECAUSE WE DO HAVE SOMETIMES BLIPS DUE TO WARS AND SO ON.

THE LONG-TERM TREND FOR THE LAST 50 YEARS IS NEGATIVE IN TERMS OF HOW MANY SO MANY PEOPLE FEEL ABOUT THEIR OWN LIVING STANDARDS.

AND WHAT THE BOOK SAYS IS THAT THIS ISN'T BY COINCIDENCE, THIS IS BY DESIGN.

WE HAVE HAD GOVERNMENTS THAT THINK THAT AT BEST THEY'RE THERE TO FIX A MARKET FAILURE THAT MEANS YOUR BE DESIGN TOO LITTLE TOO LATE PATCHING THINGS UP AND ARE ALSO NOT INVESTING IN THE FUNDAMENTAL CAPABILITIES WE REQUIRE WITHIN OUR GOVERNMENTS.

SO WHAT I PUT FORWARD IS A THEORY OF THE COMMON GOOD GOING BACK TO ARISTOTLE WHERE HE TALKED ABOUT THE GOAL, BUT ALSO GIVEN WHAT I SAID BEFORE, THE COMMUNITY.

WE NEED TO PAY MUCH MORE ATTENTION WHEN WE TALK ABOUT GOALS, WHETHER IT'S INEQUALITY, WHETHER IT'S CLIMATE ACTION, WHETHER IT'S REDUCING THE DIGITAL DIVIDE TO PUT THOSE GOALS AT THE CENTER OF HOW ALL THE DIFFERENT RELATIONSHIPS ARE STRUCTURED FROM THE BEGINNING, NOT PICKING UP THE MESS LATER.

THAT MEANS CAPITAL LABOR RELATIONS, PUBLIC SECTOR AND PRIVATE SECTOR RELATIONSHIPS SO, HOW BUSINESS ACTUALLY INTERACTS WITH THE STATE IN A BETTER WAY THAN THE VERY PROBLEMATIC WAYS WE'VE SEEN GLOBALLY, BUT ALSO HOW STATES WORK WITH CITIZENS AND ACTUALLY LISTEN TO THEM AND PUT THEIR LIVES AND THEIR VOICES, THEIR LIVED EXPERIENCE AT THE CENTER OF THE POLICY DESIGN PROCESS.

>> SO YOU HAVE TRACED THIS BACK AT LEAST 50 YEARS.

I WANT TO KNOW, BECAUSE YOU'VE ADVISED GOVERNMENTS, INCLUDING THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT, I THINK THE BRAZILIAN GOVERNMENT, AND OTHERS, AND YOU JUST MENTIONED THE ELECTION IN BRAZIL.

DO YOU THINK THAT IN THIS CASE THEY ARE ON THE LEFT MORE PROGRESSIVE, THE GOVERNMENTS HERE THAT I'VE JUST MENTIONED?

AND YOU'VE GOT THE DEMOCRATIC SOCIALISTS IN AMERICA WHO MARC SHORT JUST REFERRED TO WITH THEIR ECONOMIC PLANS.

THEY SEEM TO BE TRYING TO HEAR AND SPEAK ABOUT THE PEOPLE'S ISSUES, THAT IT SEEMS TO BE SINKING IN.

>> YES.

>> AND MARC SHORT HIMSELF WAS ADMITTING, THIS IS A REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST, THAT THE REPUBLICANS HAVE TO START FACTORING THAT IN AS WELL.

IS THAT COMING TO A TIPPING POINT RIGHT NOW?

BASED ON POLITICAL NECESSITY, BUT ARE THEY --IS THERE A CHANGE, DO YOU SEE?

>> SO I DON'T SEE ANY ONE COUNTRY BEING PERFECT IN ANY WAY.

MY OWN WORK WITH GOVERNMENTS THROUGH MY UNIVERSITY, BY THE WAY, I'M NOT A PRIVATE CONSULTANT.

WE DO IT KIND OF RESEARCHERS, AND WE WORK WITH THE GOVERNMENTS, WITH THE CIVIL SERVICE IN BRAZIL.

WE JUST WORKED THREE YEARS ON RETHINKING HOW THEY USE PUBLIC SECTOR PROCUREMENT, STATE OWNED ENTERPRISES, DIGITAL OWNED INFRASTRUCTURE.

IN THE UK I TRIED.

IT DIDN'T WORK TOO WELL WITH KEIR STARMER'S GOVERNMENT TO HELP THEM REALLY FOCUS ON KIND OF THE KEY OUTCOMES THAT YOU REQUIRE AND HOW GOVERNMENT NEEDS TO WORK IN AN INTERMINISTERIAL WAY INSTEAD OF THINKING PROBLEMS IN THIS VERY SILOED WAY.

IN THE U. S. I HAD THE HONOR TO HELP WITH SOME POLICIES LIKE THE CHIPS ACT, REGINA EDMONDO, I SAID TO HER LET'S NOT KEEP MAKING THE SAME MISTAKE WE MADE IN SILICON VALLEY WHERE WE SOCIALIZED THE RISKS AND PRIVATIZED THE REWARDS.

EVERYTHING IN OUR SMARTPHONES THAT WAS SMART WAS GOVERNMENT FINANCED.

I WROTE BACK THAT IN 2013 IN THE ENTREPRENEURIAL STATE.

LOOK WHERE THE PROFITS WENT.

THAT'S NOT TAKING EQUITY STAKES NECESSARILY IN THOSE COMPANIES.

THAT'S MAKING SURE THAT WE THINK ABOUT HOW TO MAKE SURE THAT THE BENEFITS, NOT ONLY THE TECHNOLOGY, BUT ALSO THE REWARDS ARE TRULY SHARED INSTEAD OF WHAT WE HAVE TODAY, WHICH IS TRILLIONAIRES THAT HAVE MADE THAT MONEY ON THE BACK OF NOT ONLY TAX EVASION, NOT ONLY IN SOME CASES LABOR EXPLOITATION, BUT ALSO ON THE BACK OF A HUGE AMOUNT OF TAXPAYER FUNDED PUBLIC RESEARCH.

SO IN THE CHIPS ACT WE MADE SURE THERE WAS CONDITIONALITY TO MAKE SURE THAT THE PROFITS THAT ARE GENERATED FROM A GOVERNMENT PROGRAM, THE CHIPS ACT, ARE NOT USED JUST TO BUY BACK SHARES, TO BOOST STOCK PRICES, STOCK OPTIONS AND EXECUTIVE PAY.

$7 TRILLION HAVE BEEN USED BY THE S&P 500 COMPANIES IN THE LAST TEN YEARS JUST TO BUY BACK THEIR SHARES.

$1 TRILLION LAST YEAR, NO SHARE BUYBACKS WAS IN THAT PROGRAM.

SECOND, TO IMPROVE WORKING CONDITIONS AND WORKER PAY.

THIRD, TO HAVE ENERGY EFFICIENT SUPPLY CHAINS.

THEY THEN ADDED OTHER THINGS AND PEOPLE LIKE EZRA KLEIN SAID THAT WAS TOO MUCH, AND THEY HAVE THIS WHOLE THEORY OF THE ABUNDANCE THEORY.

I DISAGREE WITH THAT.

I'M SURE WE DON'T HAVE TIME RIGHT NOW TO TALK ABOUT IT.

THE POINT IS ANY CONTRACT, ANY CONTRACT SHOT HAVE A GOOD SYMBIOTIC RELATIONSHIP AT THE CENTER.

YOU DON'T NEED TO BE A SOCIALIST TO TALK ABOUT THAT.

THIS IS CAPITALISM 101, RISKS AND REWARDS.

AND UNFORTUNATELY, WHAT WE'VE HAD IS, AGAIN, A MASSIVE SOCIALIZATION OF RISKS IN EVERY SECTOR, PHARMACEUTICALS, I. T. , ENERGY AND PRIVATIZATION OF REWARDS.

THAT IS ACTUALLY NOT IN YOUR ECON 101 TEXTBOOKS.

>> OKAY.

IN OUR ONE MINUTE LEFT, I WANT TO ASK ABOUT YOUR OWN I GUESS EXPERIMENT, BUT CERTAINLY EFFORT IN YOUR OWN LOCAL COUNCIL HERE IN LONDON, CAMDEN COUNCIL.

>> YEAH.

>> AND I'M GOING READ WHAT YOU DID.

YEAH, YOU TESTED YOUR APPROACH.

YOU HELPED LEAD THE WE MAKE CAMDEN INITIATIVE, AND LOCAL CITIZENS WERE INVOLVED.

EXPLAIN IF YOU CAN WHAT IT WAS AND CAN IT BE SCALED UP?

>> SURE.

SURE.

SO THE POINT IS THIS.

COMING BACK TO MY FIRST POINT ABOUT WE HAVE ALL THESE GOALS THERE IS A LOT OF BLAH, BLAH, BLAH ABOUT THE GOALS, BUT WE DON'T LISTEN TO PEOPLE ON THE GROUND ON HOW THEY HAVE BEEN DISSERVED BY HOW WE'VE ORGANIZED OUR STRUCTURES.

WHAT WE DID IN CAMDEN IS WE HAD AN OUTCOMES MISSION ORIENTED ADULT SOCIAL PROGRAM ACROSS TEN OF THE POOREST HOUSING ESTATES, AND WE BROUGHT THE CAREERS, THE PEOPLE WHO HAD BEEN PROVIDING THE CARE AND KNEW THE SYSTEM WAS FAILING TO THE PROCESS OF DESIGNING THAT CARE SYSTEM.

SIMILARLY, I JUST CAME BACK FROM THE AMAZON IN BRAZIL.

AND PEOPLE IN THE FOREST THAT KNOW SO MUCH ABOUT HOW TO KEEP THE FOREST ALIVE.

THEY ARE -- THEIR VOICES, THEIR KNOWLEDGE, THEIR OWN INNOVATION OVER THE LAST 500 YEARS HAS NOT BEEN BROUGHT TO THE TABLE TO DESIGN THE AMAZON FUND.

AND THAT IS THE KIND OF STUFF I REALLY THINK NEEDS TO CHANGE.

IT CAN'T JUST BE WORKING AT PEOPLE.

WE NEED TO WORK WITH PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY THOSE THAT REALLY HAVE BEEN LEFT BEHIND.

SORRY?

>> IT WAS SUCCESSFUL IN CAMDEN, BUT CAN IT BE SCALED UP?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

I MEAN, THE POINT OF ACTUALLY LOOKING AT THESE LOCAL EXAMPLES IS THAT WHERE WE CAN REALLY LEARN HOW TO WORK TOGETHER IN A DIFFERENT WAY.

AND THEN WE NEED TO SCALE IT.

OF COURSE WE CAN SCALE IT.

THINK OF EVER SINGLE GOVERNMENT, WHETHER IT'S BARBADOS, OR THE UNITED STATES, 20 TO 30% OF THE BUDGET IS JUST BUYING THINGS.

WHETHER YOU'RE BUYING SCHOOL MEALS, MATERIALS FOR HOSPITALS, ATTORNEYS TO BUILD MOTORWAYS.

WE CURRENTLY DON'T BUY IN AN OUTCOMES ORIENTED WAY.

THE REASON I WROTE MISSION ECONOMY IN GOING TO THE MOON, NASA, THE FIRST THING THEY DID TO GET TO THE MOON AND BACK IN ORDER TO WORK WITH 400,000 PEOPLE IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR ACROSS MANY DIFFERENT INDUSTRIES WAS TO CHANGE THE DESIGN OF PUBLIC SECTOR PROCUREMENT AWAY FROM COST PLUS TOWARDS AN OUTCOMES ORIENTATION.

THAT'S A HUGE BUDGET, 20% OF THE UNITED STATES BUDGET.

IMAGINE IF WE SCALED THIS OUTCOMES ORIENTATION ACROSS THE BOARD.

>> I'M REALLY GLAD THAT YOU'VE BEEN ABLE TO EXPLAIN THAT TO US, AND IT'S FOOD FOR A LOT OF CHALLENGE FOR ALL THE POLITICAL LEADERS AROUND.

MARIANA MAZZUCATO, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

> >> AND NOW TO THE UNITED STATES AND CHINA.

WHAT DID PRESIDENT TRUMP AND XI JINPING ACTUALLY GET FROM THEIR WASHINGTON SUMMIT LAST WEEK?

A TWO-MONTH EXTENSION TO THEIR TRADE TRUCE AND A PLEDGE TO KEEP TALKING ABOUT THE RISKS OF AI.

JOSHUA COOPER RAMO, FORMER CO-CEO OF HENRY KISSINGER'S CONSULTING FIRM SAID THAT LEAVES A HUGE NUMBER OF ISSUES ON THE TABLE.

IN HIS NEW BOOK "DARWIN'S LOCK: AMERICA, CHINA AND THE SHARED FUTURE OF NATIONS," HE ARGUES THE TWO POWERS MUST LEARN TO CO-EVOLVE OR FACE WHAT HE CALLS CO-EXTINCTIONS, AS HE TALKS TO WALTER ISAACSON RIGHT NOW.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

AND JOSHUA RAMO, WELCOME BACK TO THE SHOW.

>> PLEASURE TO BE WITH YOU.

>> LAST WEEK WAS A BIG WEEK FOR CHINA NEWS, JUST AS YOUR BOOK COMES OUT.

PRESIDENT TRUMP MET WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP XI OF COMBINE IN A REAL BIG RED CARPET POMP AND CIRCUMSTANCE SUMMIT AFTER A WHOLE LOT OF DISCUSSION IN THE UNITED STATES ATTACKING CHINA.

IT LOOKS LIKE TRUMP SORT OF HAS --WANTS TO HAVE A FRIENDSHIP WITH PRESIDENT XI.

TELL ME YOUR ASSESSMENT OF WHAT CAME OUT OF THAT SUMMIT.

>> LOOK, I THINK ON THE SURFACE, THE MOST IMPORTANT THING ABOUT THE SUMMIT AND THIS IS A LONG-TIME STUDENT OF HISTORY AND COLD WAR HISTORY WAS REALLY THE FIRST TIME YOU SAW THE TWO NATIONS MEETING IN A SENSE AS EQUALS.

AND BY THE WAY, IF YOU LOOK AT THE CHINESE SOCIAL MEDIA COVERAGE THAT'S HAPPENED SINCE THE SUMMIT, ALMOST ALL OF THE FOCUS HAS NOT BEEN ON THE CONTENT OF THE MEANING, BUT HAS BEEN ON THAT, ON THE SENSE THAT THESE WERE TWO EQUAL POWERS THAT WERE MEETING.

SO FROM A CHINESE PERSPECTIVE, THIS WAS A HISTORIC TURNING POINT, BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY FOR YEARS, THE SCOPE OF THE UNITED STATES VERSUS CHINA AND INSIDE CHINA WAS SOMETHING OF MEANINGFUL DEBATE.

BUT THAT SENSE OF ARRIVAL, THAT SENSE OF ENDING WHAT THE CHINESE HAVE CALLED 100 YEARS OF HUMILIATION BEGAN WITH THE OPIUM WARS IN THE 1850s WAS VERY MUCH THE SUBTEXT OF HOW THIS WAS PORTRAYED ON THE CHINA SIDE.

ON THE U. S. SIDE, LOOK, IT WAS A VERY SIGNIFICANT MOMENT IN THE SENSE THAT I THINK WE'VE ARRIVED AT A POINT WHERE BOTH NATIONS CAN HURT EACH OTHER.

IT DOESN'T MEAN WE'VE FIGURED OUT A FRAMEWORK OF HOW WE CAN LIVE TOGETHER.

THAT'S WHAT MY BOOK ABOUT AND HOW TO LIVE THROUGH THAT PROCESS.

BUT TRUMP'S OWN EXPERIENCE OF THE LAST 18 MONTHS HAS BEEN TRYING TO DO THINGS TO DAMAGE CHINA, AND TO DISCOVER THAT THE RESULT WAS HURTING THE UNITED STATES, WHICH BY THE WAY IS A CLASSIC CHINESE POSITION TO BE IN, WHERE SOMEBODY ATTACKS YOU, THEY HURT THEMSELVES.

>> WELL, YOU TALKING SOMEBODY VERY HISTORIC.

IT'S CERTAINLY TRUE THAT FOR MOST CENTURIES IN THE PAST MILLENNIUM, CHINA HAS BEEN A DOMINANT ECONOMY IN THIS WORLD.

FOR THE PAST CENTURY, THEY HAVEN'T.

BUT NOW FOR THE FIRST TIME, THEY MET WITH THE UNITED STATES AS EQUALS, YOU SAY.

TELL ME HOW THAT HAPPENED.

WHAT CAUSED OVER THE PAST TEN YEARS CHINA NOW TO FEEL THAT IT WAS EQUAL TO THE UNITED STATES.

>> YEAH, IT'S NOT JUST THE LAST TEN YEARS.

IT'S BEEN EVERYTHING THAT'S HAPPENED SINCE THIS PERIOD OF 1979 BEGAN WHAT THE CHINESE CALL REFORM AND OPENING, WHICH IS THIS PROCESS THAT'S JUST TRANSFORMED EVERYTHING ABOUT CHINA.

THE CHINESE LIKE TO SUMMARIZE THE WAY THAT THEY LOOK AT THE WORLD IN THESE KIND OF SHORT PHRASES.

ONE OF THE THINGS ABOUT THE CHINESE APPROACH TO LIFE GENERALLY IS THAT WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE LARGER ENVIRONMENT DETERMINES WHAT YOU YOURSELF DO.

SO AS WESTERNERS, WE TEND TO BE VERY FOCUSED ON A PARTICULAR TARGET.

GET RID OF THE MISSILES OR GET RID OF SADDAM OR SOMETHING.

THE CHINESE ALWAYS START WITH THE QUESTION WHAT IS THE NATURE OF THE AGE THAT YOU'RE LIVING IN.

AND THERE HAS BEEN A SHIFT IN THE NATURE OF THE AGE.

MAO FAMOUSLY SAID THE AGE HE WAS LIVE WAS ONE H HE CALLED -- [ SPEAKING IN A NON-ENGLISH LANGUAGE ] -- >> EVERYTHING WAS ABOUT REVOLUTION.

DENG'S IN 1979 WAS DO SAY THERE WAS GOING TO BE NO MAJOR POWER WARS.

CHINA WAS IN A PERIOD OF -- [ SPEAKING IN A NON- ENGLISH LANGUAGE ] --WHICH MEANS PEACE AND DEVELOPMENT.

WHEN XI CAME INTO OFFICE, HE SAID THE WORLD IS GOING THROUGH A PERIOD OF UNPRECEDENTED CHANGE, GREAT COLLAPSE AND GREAT CONSTRUCTION AT THE SAME TIME.

THE CHINESE HAVE GAUGED THAT STRATEGIC GOVERNMENT AND SAID IT'S AN INCREDIBLE OPPORTUNITY FOR THEM, AND THEY'VE PIVOTED ACCORDINGLY.

THE THING THEY REALIZED THAT'S REALLY SO IMPORTANT THAT HAS BEEN THE LESSON OF THE LAST 150 YEARS, IF YOU'RE TECHNOLOGICALLY BEHIND, YOU HAVE NO CHOICE.

YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO SURVIVE.

SO THAT INTENSE FOCUS ON TECHNOLOGICAL DEVELOPMENT IS WHAT HAS DRIVEN CHINA INTERNALLY REALLY SINCE THE OPIUM WARS, THE GREAT LESSON OF THAT HISTORIC ACCIDENT IS THEY WERE NOT TECHNOLOGICALLY AT THE SAME LEVEL AS GREAT BRITAIN.

AND NOW WHAT THEY'VE DONE IS WORKED VERY HARD TO GET TO A POINT TO WHERE AT LEAST THEY'RE GETTING CLOSE TO TECHNOLOGICAL PARITY THAT GIVES THEM GREAT CONFIDENCE.

THAT SHOWS UP IN MANUFACTURING, IN THEIR EXPORTS AND THE POLITICAL SYSTEM.

>> THE GREAT INSIGHT IN YOUR BOOK, "DARWIN'S LOCK" IS WHEN WE'RE IN A PARITY LIKE THIS AT A TIME OF GREAT CONFLICT AND A TIME OF GREAT CHALLENGES SUCH AS ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE AND CLIMATE, THAT THE NOTION OF PURE COMPETITION, OF TRYING TO OUTRIGHT BEAT THE OTHER NATION IS NOT REALLY A SMART PATH FORWARD OR EVEN THE WAY EVOLUTIONARY PATH FORWARD.

IT'S STEAD IT'S A COEVOLUTION, A WAY THAT WE WOULD HAVE TO IN SOME WAYS COOPERATE AS WELL AS COMPETE IN ORDER TOE CREATE A NEW AGE.

HOW DOES THAT FIT IN WITH WHAT'S HAPPENING RIGHT NOW?

>> YEAH, I THINK IT'S SOME PEOPLE -- THE GENERAL MIND-SET OF MOST PEOPLE DEALING WITH U. S.

- CHINA RELATIONS, PARTICULARLY ON THE U. S. SIDE THIS IS A NEW COLD WAR.

YOU LIVE, I DIE, ZERO SUM COMPETITION KIND OF MENTALITY.

AND THE RELATE IS WE FACE SOMETHING MUCH MORE DANGEROUS THAN A COLD WAR.

THE CHOICE IS NOT BETWEEN WHO WINS WHETHER IT'S UNITED STATES OR CHINA, IT'S BETWEEN COEVOLUTION AND CO-EXTINCTION.

AND THOSE ARE IDEAS THAT COME RIGHT OUT OF BIOLOGY.

THE IDEA OF COEVOLUTION IS IF YOU THINK ABOUT IN THE RAIN FOREST, THE TEMPERATURE GOES UP TO A FLOWER GROWS LONGER IMPEACHMENTS TO PROTECT ITS STAMMEN.

A BIRD MAYBE GROWS A LONGER BEAK SO IT CAN FEED BETTER.

THEY EACH GET MORE FIT FOR THE CHANGED ENVIRONMENT.

NEITHER LOSES THEIR INNATE SPECIFICITY, BUT THEY FIND A WAY TO COOPERATE BASED ON THE CHANGES THAT ARE HAPPENING AROUND THEM.

THAT HAPPENS OVER AND OVER AGAIN IN EVOLUTION.

IT HAPPENS IN TECHNOLOGICAL EVOLUTION.

IT HAPPENS WITH AN EVOLUTION BETWEEN YOUR SMARTPHONE AND APPS, FOR INSTANCE.

IT HAPPENS TODAY IN ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE WHERE PEOPLE ARE ABLE TO COOPERATE AND LEARN AND CHANGE WITH EACH OTHER AS THEY DEVELOP.

AND HONESTLY, THE OTHER CHOICE WHICH YOU DO SEE IN NATURE IS THIS THING CALLED CO-EXTINCTION, WHERE SPECIES MAKE CHOICES THAT OPTIMIZE THEIR SHORT-TERM INTERESTS BUT ULTIMATELY DOOM BOTH OF THEM.

I KNEW ABOUT COEVOLUTION.

IS CO-EXTINCTION REALLY A POSSIBILITY?

BUT WE LIVE IN A MOMENT WHERE PEOPLE ARE RUNNING AROUND TALKING ABOUT A REAL EXTINCTION RISK.

AND THAT'S THE REASON WE'VE GOT TO REFRAME OUR THINKING.

THE CHALLENGE FOR CHINA IS LIKE TWO GUYS WRESTLING INSIDE A HOUSE ON FIRE.

THEY NEED TO STOP WRESTLING AND DEAL WITH THE HOUSE THAT'S ON FIRE.

>> WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT UNDERSTANDING THE RELATIONSHIPS STRATEGICALLY, IT GETS BACK TO SOMEBODY YOU WORKED FOR MAYBE A COUPLE OF DECADES, DR.

HENRY KISSINGER.

TO WHAT EXTENT IS DR.

KISSINGER'S VIEW OF THE COMPLEXITY OF RELATIONSHIPS AND FORM WHICH YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT NOW?

AND TO WHAT EXTENT HAVE WE LOST THAT SENSE OF NUANCE?

>> I THINK THERE IS A COUPLE OF ASPECTS ABOUT DR.

KISSINGER'S VIEW AND YOU KNOW VERY WELL HAVING WRITTEN A BOOK ABOUT HIM.

HE ALWAYS APPROACHED THE PROBLEM OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS WITH HISTORIANS' MIND-SET, WHICH ALLOWED HIM TO TAKE A LITTLE BIT OF A STEP BACK AND SEE THE LARGER PATTERNS IN HISTORY.

AND IT ALSO MADE HIM DEEPLY CURIOUS ABOUT HIS INTERLOCUTORS.

HENRY WAS OBSESSED WITH ANYBODY WE'RE DEALING WITH ON A POLITICAL BASIS OR ECONOMIC BASIS.

THINKING ABOUT A PLACE LIKE CHINA IN VERY DIFFERENT WAYS THAN MOST WESTERNERS DO.

I'VE LIVED AND WORKED IN CHINA FOR 25 YEARS.

PEOPLE SHOW UP FOR WESTERNERS AND THEY'RE LIKE LOOK, THIS IS WHO I AM.

THIS IS HOW I'M GOING TO LOOK AT THE WORLD AS A WESTERNER AND THE CHINESE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO TAKE IT.

AND THEN THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO SHOW UP AND THERE IS MAYBE SOMETHING INTERESTING IN THIS 2500-YEAR-OLD SOCIETY.

MAYBE I CAN LEARN SOMETHING FROM IT.

I THINK A FIRST INSTINCT OF KISSINGERIANISM IS THAT ABILITY TO STOP AND LISTEN LONG ENOUGH TO WHAT YOU'RE HEARING SO THAT YOU YOURSELF CAN BE UNDERSTOOD.

THE SECOND MAJOR INSIGHT I THINK OF HENRY IS HENRY WOULD OFTEN SAY TO ME, JOSHUA, THE GREAT PROBLEM WITH YOUR GENERATION IS YOU HAVE NO EXPERIENCE OF TRAGEDY.

THAT WAS A WARNING THAT PEOPLE THAT HAVE NOT EXPERIENCED TRAGEDY ARE LIKELY TO REPEAT ERRORS THAT GET YOU THERE.

THE CHINESE BECAUSE OF THE LAST 150 IN CHINESE HISTORY HAVE A VERY DEEP FEELING FOR THE WAY THINGS CAN GO OFF THE RAILS.

AND YOU DON'T FIND THAT SO MUCH IN THE U. S. I WOULD SAY ONE THING THAT HAS CERTAINLY INFORMED THE APPROACH I HAVE TAKEN IS THIS VIEW NOTE ONLY DO WE NEED TO BE CURIOUS ABOUT THE OTHER SIDE, NOT DON'T WE NEED TO BE OPEN AND CONVINCED THAT OUR WAY IS NOT THE ONLY WAY, BUT THE CONSEQUENCE SALESFORCE S FOR MISJUDGING IT ARE TO BE AVOID.

>> HOW WOULD ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE CHANGE THE GAME HERE?

>> IT'S A RADICAL SHIFT, OBVIOUSLY, BECAUSE IT CHANGES EVERYTHING.

I THINK PARTICULARLY FROM THE CHINESE PERSPECTIVE, THEY'VE BEEN ABLE TO DEVELOP I THINK IN A WAY THAT IS EVEN SURPRISED THEM TO SOME DEGREE A FASCINATING AND DIFFERENT AND EFFICIENT AI STACK.

IT'S A SPACE I KNOW VERY WELL.

FROM A COMMERCIAL PERSPECTIVE, IT'S A SPACE WE'VE BEEN LOOKING AT VERY A VERY LONG TIME.

IT'S BEEN AMAZING TO THE U. S. SIDE.

PEOPLE WOULD TELL YOU IN THE FALL OF '23 THE CHINESE WERE TEN YEARS AWAY FROM THE MODEL.

TODAY SEVEN ARE IN OF TEN ARE IN CHINA.

IT HAS CHANGED THINGS A GREAT DEAL.

THE CHINESE SENSE THAT THEY CAN'T BE LEFT BEHIND HAS DONE A COUPLE OF THINGS.

IT HAS DRIVEN A REMARKABLE ENERGY IN THE DOMESTIC ECOSYSTEM.

AND SO THE U. S. ATTEMPTS TO KIND OF STRANGE TYPICAL CHINESE DEVELOPMENT AND IN FACT PRODUCED A VERY RAPID ADVANCE ON ANY NUMBER OF FRONTS ON THE COMPLETE STACK.

BUT THE SECOND THING THAT'S HAPPENED IS CHINA HAS BEGUN TO FIND A PATH FORWARD IN AI.

THINKING ABOUT AGI OR ASI THAT LOOKS DIFFERENT FROM THE UNITED STATES.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT IS THE MOST INTERESTING AT THE MOMENT IS THIS FULL STACK FORK.

IT'S A FORK NOT JUST IN THE WAY THE AI SYSTEMS OPERATE.

THE CHINESE RUN LLMs LIKE THE WESTERN COUNTRIES DO, BUT ALMOST A PHILOSOPHICAL SYSTEM WHERE DO THESE SYSTEMS FIT INTO SOCIETY.

IN A WAY, IF YOU THINK THAT THE SYSTEMS THEMSELVES AT SOME POINT MAY BECOME COMMODITIZED, THE REAL MEASURE OF IMPACT IS NOT GOING TO BE HOW GOOD IS YOUR AI SYSTEM, BUT HOW STRONG IS THE ABILITY OF YOUR SOCIETY TO ABSORB THE IMPACT.

AND ONE OF THE THINGS YOU SEE A GREAT DEAL IN CHINA IS VERY DEEP DISCUSSION ABOUT THAT AND A LOT OF FOCUS ON SAFETY.

THE SAFETY CULTURE INSIDE CHINA AND THE FOCUS ON SAFETY OF THESE AI SYSTEMS IS QUITE DIFFERENT THAN WHAT YOU SEE IN THE U. S.

>> ONE OF THE ARGUMENTS AGAINST SLOWING DOWN AND PUTTING GUARDRAILS ON AI IN THE UNITED STATES HAS ALWAYS BEEN AND IS CERTAINLY THE LAST FEW WEEKS BEEN HEY, CHINA IS GOING TO DO IT IF WE DON'T.

THAT WE'RE IN A RACE AND WHOEVER GETS THERE FIRST, WHOEVER TRIUMPHS FIRST WINS, AND IT INCREASES THEIR ADVANTAGE.

FIRST OF ALL, DOES THAT MAKE SENSE TO YOU?

AND SECONDLY, HOW DOES THAT FIT INTO AN IDEA OF COEVOLUTION?

>> I THINK THIS RACE ANALOGY WHICH HAS BEEN CONSISTENTLY USED, THIS FAILS ALMOST EVERY TEST OFT WHAT A RACE SHOULD BE.

IT'S NOT CLEAR WHAT THE FINISH LINE IS.

IT'S NOT CLEAR WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE TO WIN, WHAT THE RULES ARE.

THAT KIND OF APPROACH WHERE YOU KIND OF JUSTIFY ENDLESS RAPID DEVELOPMENT ON THE THEORY THAT YOU'VE GOT TO BEAT THE OTHER GUY FAILS BOTH THE TEST OF DOES THIS MATCH THE METAPHOR AND THE REALITY OF THE SITUATION, WHICH IS EVERY TIME THE U. S. HAS TRIED TO SLOW THE CHINESE DOWN IN THE LAST 36 MONTHS, IT'S ACTUALLY ACCELERATED THE CHINESE PROGRESS.

SO JUST FROM AN AMERICAN NATIONAL SECURITY PERSPECTIVE, A NATIONAL INTEREST PERSPECTIVE, FRAMING THIS AS A RACE IS NOTE NECESSARILY THE SAFEST PATH AND IT'S MAYBE NOT THE PATH THAT BENEFITS THE U. S. THE MOST.

THE RIGHT WAY TO THINK ABOUT THIS PROBABLY TO USE A BIOLOGICAL METAPHOR IS EACH SIDE IS CULTIVATING AND GROWING ITS OWN GARDEN.

THERE IS PROBABLY SOMETHING EACH SIDE WITH LEARN FROM ONE ANOTHER.

THIS HUGGING FACE INCIDENT WHERE YOU HAD A U. S. CLOSED LAB MODEL, THE OPENAI MODEL ALMOST WIPE OUT AN AMERICAN COMPANY THAT HAD TO SAVE ITSELF BY USING A CHINESE OPEN WEIGHT MODEL.

THAT SHOWS YOU THE BENEFIT OF HAVING A VERY DIVERSE ECOSYSTEM.

I THINK IF YOU CAN UNHINGE YOURSELF FROM THAT RACE METAPHOR AND KIND OF INSTEAD SAY IS THIS A COOPERATIVE WAY TO DEVELOP A FRAMEWORK FOR BOTH SIDES, IS THERE A COOPERATIVE WAY, THAT'S A CHINESE PALO ALTO FORWARD.

>>.

>> DO YOU HAVE A CONSTANT WORKING GROUP THAT SAYS AMERICANS AND CHINESE, WE'RE GOING TO WORK TOGETHER JUST AS WE KIND OF DID DURING THE COLD WAR ON NUCLEAR WEAPONS?

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

YOU NEED A COMPLETE RESET IN YOUR THINKING AND UNDERSTAND THAT THE SHARED DANGERS, OF WHAT THE U. S. IS AFRAID OF AND WHAT THE CHINESE ARE AFRAID OF IS THE SAME THING AND NOT EACH OTHER.

THAT WOULD HAVE A VERY DIFFERENT STRUCTURAL APPROACH TO IT.

AS LONG AS THE U. S. FRAMES THIS AS A RACE CONDITION AND SAYS THIS IS WHERE WE'RE GOING AND WE'RE GOING TO DO EVERYTHING WE CAN TO SLOW YOU DOWN, IT MAKES IT VERY HARD FOR THE CHINESE TO SIT DOWN AND DO THIS.

THE CHALLENGE IS HOW CAN YOU BUILD A STRUCTURE THAT ALLOWS THE TWO SIDES TO INTERACT WITH ONE ANOTHER, TO LEARN FROM ONE ANOTHER, TO PUT SOME GUARDRAILS IN PLACE.

TODAY THOSE DISCUSSIONS ARE VERY DIFFICULT BECAUSE THE U. S. SIDE IS ON THE ONE HAND TRYING TO STRANGLE ESSENTIALLY THE CHINESE AI DEVELOPMENT, ON THE OTHER SIDE SAYING HEY, WILL YOU COOPERATE WITH US ON GUARDRAILS.

IT'S A FRAMEWORK THAT'S VERY UNLIKELY TO BE SUCCESSFUL.

>> YOU KNOW, HUMAN RIGHTS HAS OFTEN BEEN ON THE AGENDA OVER THE PAST 50 YEARS OR SO IN DEALING WITH CHINA.

IT'S SOMETHING PRESIDENT TRUMP IS MUCH MORE DISMISSIVE OF, BUT TO SOME EXTENT, HENRY KISSINGER WAS AS WELL.

AND I THINK THERE IS SOMETHING IN YOUR BOOK WHERE YOU TALK ABOUT THIS PROBABLY A REASONABLE AND CLEAR-EYED CONVERSATION TO BE HAD ABOUT LECTURING OTHER COUNTRIES ABOUT THEIR HUMAN RIGHTS.

DO YOU THINK WE HAVE TO GET OFF THIS LET'S PUSH OTHER COUNTRIES TO HAVE THE SAME VIEW OF HUMAN RIGHTS WE DO?

>> I THINK IT'S A DEEP QUESTION.

IT TOUCHES ON THIS QUESTION WHETHER OR NOT ALL VALUES ARE UNIVERSAL.

I HAVE TO BE A BIG BELIEVER IN THE IMPORTANCE OF HUMAN RIGHTS.

I THINK THE CHALLENGE FOR THE U. S. HAS BEEN IN RECENT YEARS IT'S BEEN VERY DIFFICULT TO JUSTIFY THIS STANCE OF HUMAN RIGHTS GIVEN MANY OF THE ACTIVITIES OF THE U. S. AROUND THE WORLD.

AND SO I THINK THE THING IS OBVIOUSLY IF YOU'RE GOING TO BE IN A POSITION WHERE YOU HAVE THIS MORAL VIEW OF THINGS YOU HAVE TO BE WALKING THE TALK TO SOME DEGREE.

SO I THINK THAT'S UNDERMINED IT.

>> CHINA DOES NOT WANT A NUCLEAR IRAN, AND YET CHINA'S HELPING IRAN.

EXPLAIN THAT TO ME AND WHAT SHOULD WE BE DOING ABOUT THAT?

>> YES.

ONE OF THE EXAMPLES I GIVE IN MY BOOK ABOUT A PLACE WHERE THE U. S. AND CHINA SHOULD BE WORKING TOGETHER IS ON NUCLEAR PROLIFERATION.

CHINA DOES NOT WANT TO LIVE IN A WORLD OF 30 NUCLEAR WEAPON STRAITS.

THEY DON'T WANT A NUCLEAR SOUTH KOREA, A NUCLEAR JAPAN, AND THE UNITED STATES DOES NOT WANT TO LIVE IN A WORLD WITH 30 WEAPON STATES.

THE IMPORTANT THING TO UNDERSTAND IS GENERALLY FRAMING U. S.

- CHINA RELATIONS IS THE CHINESE DO START WITH IN HIGH LEVEL NATION, WHAT'S THE NATURE OF THE RELATIONSHIP, WHERE IS THIS GOING.

AND THEIR PERCEPTION IS THAT THE UNITED STATES IS DOING EVERYTHING IT CAN TO STOP CHINA FROM BECOMING MODERN, PROSPEROUS, AND SECURE.

AND WHEN THEY HAVE THAT VIEW OF THE WORLD, WHICH YOU CAN ARGUE WHETHER OR NOT THAT'S CORRECT, IT MAKES IT VERY DIFFICULT THEN TO SAY WHY COOPERATE ON ANY OF THESE SUBSIDIARY THINGS.

SO THERE IS CERTAINLY MANY OPPORTUNITIES OVER THE PAST DECADE AND A HALF MANY PARTICULAR ON IRAN, ON NUCLEAR WEAPONS PROLIFERATION FOR THE UNITED STATES TO APPROACH CHINA, AND THE CHINESE HAVE MADE A NUMBER OF OVERTURES SAYING IS THERE A WAY FOR US TO DEVELOP A COLLECTIVE APPROACH ON THAT.

THE U. S. HAS NOT TAKEN THAT PATH.

SO IT'S LEFT THE CHINESE IN A POSITION WHERE THEY HAVE TO DO WHAT THEY THINK IS NECESSARY TO BE SECURE, WHICH INCLUDES INCREASING THEIR OWN NUCLEAR CAPACITY, BUILDING AN ANTI-BALLISTIC MISSILE SYSTEM, AND FINDING ALLIES IN PARTS OF THE WORLD WHERE THEY CAN TO BE HELPFUL.

I THINK BY THE WAY, WALTER, WHAT YOU DON'T KNOW, I THINK NONE OF US REALLY KNOW WHAT DOES A WORLD LOOK LIKE AS YOU BEGIN TO HAVE MORE AND MORE PROLIFERATION, RIGHT.

IF IRAN GETS CLOSE, THE ADMINISTRATION MAYBE IS ENCOURAGING SAUDI ARABIA TO MOVE CLOSER.

WHAT DOES THAT WORLD LOOK LIKE?

SO IT'S AN UNUSUAL OPPORTUNITY WHERE THE U. S. AND CHINESE INTERESTS ARE SO CLOSELY ALIGNED THAT THERE IS A GREAT OPPORTUNITY FOR SUCCESSFUL DIPLOMACY HERE.

IN THE COLD WAR THERE WAS THIS MOMENT WHERE THE SOUTH AFRICANS DEVELOPED NUCLEAR WEAPONS AND THIS FAMOUS KALAHARI MOMENT.

AND THE SOVIETS DISCOVERED IT EARLY.

THEY CAME TO THE U. S. AND SAID HEY, THIS IS GOING ON, WE NEED TO STOP THIS.

AND THE SOAVE YETS AND THE U. S. WORKED TOGETHER TO REVERSE PROLIFERATE SOUTH AFRICA.

THAT SEEMS TO BE A CLEAR- EYED VIEW OF WHAT A SHARED DANGER LOOKS LIKE THAT SO FAR HAS NOT EMERGE BETWEEN THE U. S. AND CHINA.

>> SOMEONE AT THE XI-PRESIDENT TRUMP DINNER SAID THE PRESIDENT TRIED TO MAKE A FEW JOKES ABOUT TAIWAN AND PRESIDENT XI SAT VERY STONE-FACED.

WHAT DO YOU THINK THE SUMMIT DID ON THAT RELATIONSHIP AND HOW SHOULD IT BE MANAGED?

>> I THINK WALTER YOU'RE RAISING ONE OF THESE REALLY IMPORTANT ISSUES WHICH IS THE FUNDAMENTAL NATURE OF THE BILATERAL RELATIONSHIP.

THE CHINESE DON'T LIKE JOKING ABOUT TAIWAN.

IT'S NOT THE KIND OF RELATIONSHIP THAT'S PROBABLY THE RIGHT WAY TO APPROACH IT.

FOR THE CHINESE, TAIWAN AND THE IDEA OF UNITY IS A VERY DEEP PHILOSOPHICAL POLITICAL ISSUE.

IT IS SOMETHING THAT FOR ALL CHINESE PEOPLE IS REALLY THE HEART OF A CHINESE IDENTITY TO SOME DEGREE, THIS SENSE OF WHOLENESS GOING BACK CENTURIES AND TERRITORIAL INTEGRITY.

CHINA I THINK HAS AN APPROACH THAT THEY BELIEVE OVER TIME, THE TAIWAN ISSUE WILL RESOLVE ITSELF THAT'S SUITABLE TO THE NATIONAL INTERESTS OF CHINA, AND THEY SEEM RELATIVELY PATIENT.

BEIJING IS VERY PATIENT ABOUT THAT.

BUT THERE ARE THINGS THAT COULD BE DONE THAT WOULD ERODE THAT PATIENCE VERY QUICKLY AND PUSH THEM OVER THE EDGE.

I THINK THE QUESTION IS THE POLICIES OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION GOING FORWARD MORE LIKELY TO PUSH THAT INTO CRISIS OR LIKELY TO AVOID A CRISIS.

I THINK IN THE SHORT- RUN IT PROBABLY DERISKS THE POLITICAL SYSTEM A LITTLE BIT, BUT THE LONG- TERM QUESTION STILL REMAINS.

>> JOSHUA RAIMO, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU.

> >> AND FINALLY, IT SURVIVED GREAT FIRES, VICIOUS DISEASE, AND ATTACKS FROM THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE.

I'M TALKING ABOUT THIS INVINCIBLE GRAPEVINE IN SLOVENIA, PLANTED IN THE 16th CENTURY, IT'S BEEN CREEPING ALONG THE SAME WALL FOR NEARLY HALF A MILLENNIUM, MAKING IT THE OLDEST IN THE WORLD.

REMARKABLY, THE VINE STILL BEARS FRUIT, AND LOCALS JUST CELEBRATED ANOTHER SUCCESSFUL HARVEST WHERE EACH GRAPE WAS PICKED BY HAND AND ALL WAS TURNED INTO WINE.

THE LONGEVITY OFF THIS VINE IS MIRACULOUS, MYSTERIOUS AND HUMBLING TOO AS ITS CAREERS SAY THIS VINE REMEMBERS A LOT OF THINGS THAT WE WEREN'T EVEN HERE TO SEE.

> >> AND THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.

ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE FROM LONDON.