>>> WHILE NEGOTIATIONS TO END THE WAR IN IRAN STALL, THE UNITED STATES HAS YET TO GIVE AN ENTIRELY CLEAR RATIONALE FOR STARTING IT IN THE FIRST PLACE, MUCH LESS AN EXIT STRATEGY.

OUR NEXT GUEST ARGUES THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS INVOKING CHRISTIAN SCRIPTURE AS A MORAL JUSTIFICATION FOR THIS WAR.

IT IS A TOPIC PETER WEHNER EXPLORES IN DEPTH IN TWO RECENT COLUMNS FOR "THE ATLANTIC" WHERE HE IS A WRITER AND HE IS JOINING MICHEL MARTIN TO DISCUSS WHAT THIS MEANS FOR POLITICS AND RELIGION.

>> THANKS, CHRISTIANE.

PETER WEHNER, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> IT IS DELIGHTFUL TO BE WITH YOU, THANKS FOR HAVING ME ON.

>> PEOPLE WHO FOLLOW YOUR WRITING KNOW YOU HAVE SPENT YEARS WRITING ABOUT FAITH, POLITICS, AND POWER.

AND IN TWO RECENT PIECES IN "THE ATLANTIC", YOU ARE REALLY WRESTLING WITH WHAT HAPPENS WHEN RELIGION IS USED EITHER TO JUSTIFY WAR, OR TO RESTRAIN IT.

SO, AS WE LOOK AT THE IRAN WAR RIGHT NOW, WHAT ARE SOME OF THE CENTRAL MORAL QUESTIONS THAT YOU FEEL NEED TO BE WRESTLED WITH?

I THINK THE CENTRAL MORAL QUESTION IS WHETHER THE WAR IS LEGITIMATE ON MORAL GROUNDS AND THAT IS A REAL DEBATE TO BE HAD.

THAT IS TRUE OF ANY WAR.

YOU HAVE TO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT FACTS AND CIRCUMSTANCES.

I THINK, WHAT TROUBLES ME IN THIS PRESENT MOMENT IS, ONE, I WOULD SAY, IS PRESIDENT TRUMP AND HIS TEAM HAVE NOT MADE ANY ARGUMENT, REALLY, FOR GOING TO WAR, LET ALONE A MORAL ARGUMENT FOR GOING TO WAR.

BUT, BEYOND THAT, IT IS THE INVOCATION PARTICULARLY BY SECRETARY OF DEFENSE HEGSETH, BUT NOT ONLY BY HIM, TO USE THE BIBLE TO VALIDATE THIS WAR, AND TO ESSENTIALLY CAST THE WAR AS A SPIRITUAL AND RELIGIOUS STRUGGLE.

AND I THINK THEY ARE WRONG TO DO THAT, I THINK IT IS DESTRUCTIVE TO THE LARGER DEBATE THAT WE ARE HAVING, AND I THINK IT IS ALSO DESTRUCTIVE TO THE CHRISTIAN FAITH, WHICH HEGSETH PROCLAIMS.

>> AT A WORSHIP SERVICE ON MARCH 25th, SECRETARY HEGSETH REPORTEDLY PRAYED FOR VIOLENCE AGAINST THOSE WHO "DESERVED NO MERCY," HIS WORDS.

SOME MILITARY REPORTING AROUND THAT.

SAID THAT COMMANDERS WERE TELLING TROOPS THAT THE WAR WAS PART OF "GOD'S PLAN."

AND THAT TRUMP HAD BEEN "ANOINTED BY JESUS" TO TRIGGER ARMAGEDDON.

AT THE SAME TIME, PRESIDENT TRUMP TOLD IRANIANS TO "TAKE OVER YOUR GOVERNMENT AND HELP IS ON THE WAY."

SO, WHEN YOU PUT THOSE TWO STATEMENTS TOGETHER, WHAT DOES THAT SAY ABOUT HOW THE WAR IS BEING FRAMED?

>> YEAH, I THINK WHAT IT SAYS IS, THE WAR IS BEING FRAMED AS A HOLY WAR, AS A RELIGIOUS WAR, AND THAT IS THE WRONG FRAME.

I DON'T THINK THE APPLICATION -- IN FACT, I AM QUITE CERTAIN THAT THE APPLICATION WHERE THEY ARE USING THESE BIBLICAL TEXTS TO JUSTIFY WHAT IS ESSENTIALLY A MERCILESS WAR, A WAR OF TOTAL DESTRUCTION.

WE HEARD FROM THE PRESIDENT IN ONE OF HIS TWEETS SEVERAL WEEKS AGO, A THREAT TO DESTROY THE ENTIRE CIVILIZATION.

THERE IS A TRADITION, AS IT IS CALLED, "THE JUST WAR TRADITION" WITHIN CHRISTIANITY, ABOUT WHETHER ONE SHOULD GO, WHETHER A COUNTRY SHOULD GO TO WAR AND IF YOU DO GO TO WAR, WHAT ARE THE PARAMETERS OF THAT WAR?

HOW DO YOU PROSECUTE A WAR JUSTLY?

THAT IS NOT EASY BECAUSE WAR, BY ITS VERY NATURE, INVOLVES A VERY LOT OF COMP THE KID QUESTIONS AND DOING THINGS YOU MIGHT NOT OTHERWISE DO, BUT YOU STILL HAVE TO HAVE CONSTRAINTS THAT KEEP YOU FROM ACTING IN WAYS THAT ARE BARBAROUS.

AND WHAT WE ARE SEEING FROM THE ADMINISTRATION IS NOT ONLY NO REFERENCE OR ENGAGEMENT WITH THE JUST WAR THEORY, IT IS ACTUALLY TURNING IT UPSIDE DOWN, AND IT'S -- THE ARGUMENT THAT THEY ARE MAKING IS THAT THE JUST WAR THEORY DOESN'T MATTER AND MORALITY DOESN'T MATTER.

WE ARE GOING TO WAR, WE ARE ON THE SIDE OF GOD, AND WE CAN DO CARTE BLANCHE, WE CAN DO ANYTHING WE WANT IN THE NAME OF GOD TO WIN THIS WAR, AND THAT CAN LEAD TO NOT ONLY A LOT OF TERRIBLE HUMAN DESTRUCTION, UNNECESSARY HUMAN DESTRUCTION, BUT IT CAN WEAKEN THE MORAL STATURE OF THE UNITED STATES, TO DO THIS KIND OF THING.

AND I THINK IT IS A DEFAMATION OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH, IN THE NAME OF JESUS, AND I AM A PERSON OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH, SO THAT TROUBLES ME, TOO.

>> IN YOUR APRIL 13th PIECE FOR "THE ATLANTIC", IT IS TITLED "HEGSETH'S UNHOLY WAR" YOU RIGHT THAT, THE DEFENSE SECRETARY SEEMS LESS INTERESTED ON BEING ON THE SIDE OF GOD, THEN INSISTING GOD IS ON HIS SIDE.

AND IN THE SAME PIECE, YOU ARGUE THAT HEGSETH'S LANGUAGE IS NOT JUST POLITICAL SPIN, BUT SOMETHING DEEPER THAN THAT.

AT A PENTAGON PRESS BRIEFING ON APRIL 16th, 2026, HEGSETH DISMISSED NEGATIVE COVERAGE, OR MORAL CRITICISM AS "INCREDIBLY UNPATRIOTIC," AND "AN ENDLESS STREAM OF GARBAGE," COMPARED THE PRESS TO THE BIBLICAL PHARISEES AND SAID, "IT IS OFTEN HARD TO FIND OUT WHAT SIDE YOU ARE ACTUALLY ON."

A COUPLE QUESTIONS I HAD ABOUT THAT IS, WHERE DOES HIS WORLDVIEW COME FROM, IN YOUR REPORTING?

>> I THINK HE HAS REACHED FOR FAITH TO TRY AND PUT MEANING INTO HIS LIFE, IT IS NO SECRET THAT HE HAS HAD SOMETHING OF A DISSOLUTE LIFE.

AND I THINK HE HAS GONE TO FAITH TO TRY TO BRING IT TOGETHER.

NOW, A LOT OF PEOPLE DO THAT.

I THINK IN THIS CASE, WITH HEGSETH, A COUPLE THINGS ARE GOING ON.

ONE IS, HE HAS FOUND HIMSELF UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF A PASTOR NAMED DOUG WILSON, WHO WAS WITH REFORM TRADITION, WITHIN PROTESTANT WORLD, THAT I THINK DEEPLY MISUNDERSTANDS CHRISTIANITY AND CORRUPTS AND DISTORTS THE SCRIPTURAL TEACHINGS.

SO, I THINK THAT IS ONE THING THAT IS GOING ON WITH HEGSETH.

THE OTHER THING THAT IS HAPPENING WITH HIM -- AND THIS IS NOT SPECIFIC ONLY TO HIM, IT IS A TEMPTATION THAT I THINK ALL PEOPLE OF FAITH HAVE, BUT I THINK IT IS PARTICULARLY PRONOUNCED IN HIS CASE -- AND THAT IS, YOU TAKE PRE-EXISTING SENTIMENTS, REFLEXES, SENSIBILITIES, CORE IDENTITIES, AND YOU PROOF TEXT THE BIBLE TO VALIDATE WHAT YOU ALREADY BELIEVE, SO THE BIBLE AND FAITH BECOMES ALMOST A HOOD ORNAMENT.

IT IS SECONDARY TO OTHER THINGS AND IN THIS CASE, I THINK IT IS SECRETARY -- SECONDARY TO PETE HEGSETH PSYCHOLOGICAL PROFILE, THE DOGMATISM'S THAT HE IS A PART OF THE WORLD, WHICH IS THE MAGA WORLD, THAT IS REALLY WHAT HE IS GOING TO DO, THAT IS WHAT HE IS GOING TO ACT, AND HE WANTS TO VALIDATE THAT AND HE VALIDATES IT BY INVOKING, IN THE CASE OF SOME OF THESE SERVICES HE HAS HELD AT THE PENTAGON, BY INVOKING THE BIBLE IN THE NAME OF GOD TO JUSTIFY AND RATIFY WHAT HE WANTS TO DO.

THE TROUBLE IS, THAT WHAT HE IS TRYING TO DO, WHICH IS TO GET THE BIBLE TO VALIDATE HIS APPROACH, ACTUALLY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT THE BIBLE OR WHAT GOD WANTS.

>> YOU KNOW, THE SCRIPTURES -- THE HEBREW SCRIPTURES AND THE SUBSEQUENT NEW TESTAMENT SAY A LOT OF THINGS.

AND YOU CAN FIND JUSTIFICATION FOR A LOT OF THINGS.

>> INDEED.

>> THERE IS GENOCIDE, YOU KNOW?

THERE IS, YOU KNOW, SMITING, THERE IS ALSO LOVE, COMPASSION, EMPATHY, TOLERANCE, BUT SO IS INCREDIBLE VIOLENCE.

>> YEAH.

>> SO, I GUESS, HOW -- HOW CAN WE KIND OF SORT OUT WHAT IS A MISAPPLICATION OF THESE TEXTS, AND WHAT IS, KIND OF, THE TRUTH?

>> YOU KNOW, SHAKESPEARE GOT AT THIS IN "THE VIRGIN DENNIS," WHEN HE QUOTED SCRIPTURE FOR HIS OWN PURPOSES AND IT IS PARTICULARLY FOR THE REASON YOU SAID, THE BIBLE IS NOT A SINGLE BOOK, LIKE LIBRARY BOOKS AND YOU CAN PROOF TEXT VIRTUALLY ANYTHING THAT A PERSON WANTS TO IN THE NAME OF STRICTURE.

THIS IS A GREAT STRUGGLE IN AMERICAN HISTORY, SLAVERY AND ANTISLAVERY, BOTH SIDES QUOTED THE BIBLE FOR THEIR PURPOSES AND BOTH OF THEM HAD TEXTS THAT THEY COULD INVOKE.

THE BIBLE IS NOT A SIMPLE BOOK TO INTERPRET.

SO, THAT RAISES THE QUESTION YOU DID, WHICH IS, HOW DO YOU SORT YOUR WAY THROUGH THIS COMPLICATED -- ONE IS, I WOULD SAY, THIS IS, I THINK, A TRUER IMPRESSION, THE OLDER I HAVE GOTTEN, WHICH IS, THE CENTRAL EMPLOYMENTS OF DISCERNMENT OF SENSIBILITIES, THAT IS THE CAPACITY TO SORT THROUGH FACTS AND CIRCUMSTANCES TO TRY TO FIGURE OUT, WHAT DOES THE MOMENT REQUIRE OF ME?

BUT SIMPLY PROOF TEXTING THE BIBLE, SAYING, "THE BIBLE SAID IT, I BELIEVE IT, THAT SETTLES IT," THAT HAS GOTTEN CHRISTIANS IN A LOT OF REALLY BAD PLACES THROUGHOUT HISTORY.

THE OTHER THING I WOULD SAY, IS A PRETTY GOOD THING TO KEEP IN MIND WHEN ONE IS ASKING ONESELF THESE QUESTIONS IS, WHAT IS THE END RESULT?

WHAT IS THE END PRODUCT OF IT?

IF WHAT YOU ARE DOING IN THE INVOCATION OF BIBLICAL VERSES IS ADVANCING IN JUSTICE, ADVANCING SUFFERING, ADVANCING PAIN, THAT, I THINK, YOU HAVE TO CALL INTO QUESTION WHETHER THAT INTERPRETATION IS LEADING YOU THE WRONG WAY BECAUSE I THINK THE ANSWER YOU ARE SPEAKING OF, AS A PERSON OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH -- I MEAN, IF LOVE NEST -- LOVELESS NESS AND WHAT IS ANTITHETICAL TO JESUS, IS WHAT YOU ARE DOING IN YOUR USE OF THE BIBLE, AND YOUR USE OF THE BIBLE, THEN YOU ARE JUST REALLY OFF.

THE THIRD THING I WILL SAY, YOU JUST NEED PEOPLE IN YOUR LIFE WHO YOU TRUST IN YOUR LIFE WHO HAVE SOME SENSE OF MATURITY INCLUDING SPIRITUAL MATURITY, WHO CAN HELP POINT OUT, "LOOK, YOU ARE JUST TAKING US IN THE WRONG DIRECTION."

>> WELL, SPEAKING OF, SOMEBODY WHO SAYS THAT IS NOT THE WAY IT IS AND WE ARE GOING TO SPEAK OUT AGAINST IT, IN YOUR LATEST PIECE, YOU DESCRIBED POPE LEO, THE FIRST AMERICAN-BORN POPE, AS SOMEONE WHO IS UNWILLING TO SUBORDINATE HIS FAITH TO POLITICS, OR TO ADJUST HIS COMMITMENT TO THE GOSPEL IN EXCHANGE FOR ACCESS TO POWER.

I CAN'T THINK OF A TIME WHEN THERE WAS AN EXCHANGE LIKE THIS BETWEEN AN AMERICAN PRESIDENT AND A POPE.

JUST, AS BRIEFLY AS YOU CAN, WALK US THROUGH WHAT HAPPENED, HERE, FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVEN'T FOLLOWED IT?

>> YEAH, POPE LEO, AMERICAN POPE BORN IN CHICAGO, HE HAS HAD SOME STATEMENTS OVER THE LAST SEVERAL MONTHS THAT HAVE TAKEN ISSUE WITH SOME ELEMENTS WITH, I WOULD SAY, THE TRUMPIAN APPROACH, MASS DEPORTATION, THE USE OF JESUS, THAT TRUMP HAS DONE IN SOME OF HIS SOCIAL MEDIA PIECES, BUT ESPECIALLY ON THE IRAN WAR.

AND SHE HAS EXPRESSED SUGGESTIONS TO IT.

HIS POPE, THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, TRADITIONALLY, SPEAKS OUT ON BEHALF OF PEACE.

BUT, THE FACT THAT A POPE WOULD SPEAK OUT ON BEHALF OF THE ACTIONS OF A COUNTRY OR PRESIDENT IS NOT UNUSUAL.

IT HAS HAPPENED BEFORE.

I THINK WHAT IS DIFFERENT ABOUT THIS, IS DONALD TRUMP, IN RESPONDING TO POPE LEO, DOES WHAT HE ALWAYS DOES, WHICH IS THE PERSONALIZATION OF IT, THE WAY IN WHICH HE IS SO AGGRESSIVELY GOING AFTER POPE LEO.

>> AND JUST TO CLARIFY, FOR PEOPLE LOOKING IN, HE CALLED HIM, "WEAK ON CRIME," HE SAID, THE POPE DOESN'T MIND IF IRAN HAS A BOMB, SAYING, HE DOESN'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT WAR, SAYING, HE DOESN'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT FOREIGN POLICY, HE IS "WEAK ON FOREIGN POLICY," ET CETERA.

I WAS WONDERING IF YOU COULD FRAME FOR US JUST HOW REMARKABLE THIS IS?

BECAUSE A LOT OF PEOPLE JUST FIND IT SHOCKING.

>> AND PEOPLE ARE RIGHT TO BE SHOCKED.

AND IT IS UNPRECEDENTED.

REALLY, IT HAS NEVER HAPPENED.

AGAIN, PRESIDENT'S AND POPES HAVE HAD DIFFERENCES ALWAYS OVERTIME, BUT IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN RESPECTFUL DIFFERENCES.

AND I SHOULD ALSO ADD, TRUMP IS TAKING ON THE LEADER OF 1.4 BILLION CATHOLICS WORLDWIDE AND A LOT OF CATHOLICS WITHIN THE UNITED STATES.

I WILL SAY, SEVERAL THINGS ABOUT THE FACT POPE LEO SPOKE OUT, ONE IS WHAT YOU ALLUDED TO, WHICH IS, HERE IS AN EXAMPLE OF A PERSON OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH WHO IS NOT SUBORDINATING THE GOSPEL TO BE CLOSE TO POWER.

HE HAS NO INTEREST IN BEING CLOSE TO POWER, COZYING UP TO POWER.

AND HE HAS NO CAREER AMBITIONS THAT HE IS AFTER.

SO, THAT, I THINK, IS NOTABLE.

BUT, THE OTHER THING THAT IS NOTABLE TO ME -- IT WAS, I DON'T KNOW, KIND OF AN ARCHETYPAL SORT OF CONFLICT -- ONE WAS THE FACT THAT YOU HAVE MEN THAT ARE JUST POLAR OPPOSITES.

ONE WHO IS A PERSON OF DEEP RELIGIOUS FAITH, WHOSE ENTIRE INTERIOR LIFE HAS BEEN SHAPED BY SPIRITUAL DISCIPLINES.

A MAN BY, ALL ACCOUNTS, OF CALMNESS, KINDNESS.

PART OF THE AUGUSTINE TRADITION OF CONTEMPLATION AND ACTION, AND A PREFERENTIAL TREATMENT FOR THE POOR, TO USE A CATHOLIC PHRASE.

SO, THAT IS ON THE ONE HAND.

AND THEN, ON THE OTHER HAND, YOU HAVE DONALD TRUMP, A MAN WHO IS TOTALLY AND COMPLETELY SECULAR, WHO VIEWS LIFE AS A SERIES OF CONQUESTS, SEXUAL CONQUESTS, FINANCIAL CONQUESTS, CONQUESTS IN THE LIFE OF POWER, WHO HAS NO INSTITUTIONAL TIES TO ANY CHURCH, WHO, HIMSELF, HAS SAID THAT HE DOESN'T NEED TO ASK FORGIVENESS FROM GOD FOR ANYTHING.

SO, YOU HAVE THAT CONCEPT, BUT BEYOND THAT, WHAT STRUCK ME IS NOT ONLY POPE LEO STANDING UP TO DONALD TRUMP BUT HE IS, IN A SENSE, ASCENDING DONALD TRUMP.

YOU MENTIONED THAT ATTACK ON THE POPE, SAYING HE WAS WEAK ON CRIME.

EVEN BY CHAMPION STANDARDS, THAT IS A LUDICROUS ATTACK.

WHAT IS THAT SUPPOSED TO MEAN?

I THINK WHAT IT MEANS IS DONALD TRUMP DOESN'T KNOW HOW TO ATTACK THIS POPE IN A WAY THAT IS MEANINGFUL.

>> WHAT ABOUT J.D.

VANCE, THE VICE PRESIDENT WHO CONVERTED TO CATHOLICISM IN 2019?

>> YEAH.

>> HE SAID -- AND THIS WAS AT A TURNING POINT USA EVENT, SORT OF THAT CAMPUS-ORIENTED MOVE TO SORT OF FOCUS ON CONSERVATIVE PRINCIPLES FOR COLLEGE KIDS, THIS WAS APRIL 14th AND THE PRESIDENT SAID THE POPE SHOULD "BE CAREFUL" WHEN TALKING ON MATTERS OF THEOLOGY.

HE SAID, THE VATICAN SHOULD STICK TO QUESTIONS OF MORALITY.

HE SAID, WHEN THE POPE IS NEVER ON THE GUIDE OF THOSE WHO WILL, THERE IS MORE THAN 1000 YEAR TRADITION OF JUST WAR THEORY."

WHAT YOU MAKE OF THE VICE PRESIDENT'S RESPONSE TO THIS?

>> LOOK, I THINK IT'S REASONABLE TO SAY THAT, THE POPE SHOULD BE CAREFUL, WHEN INVOKING HIS THEOLOGY, BUT I ALSO THINK IT IS FAIR TO SAY THAT J.D.

VANCE SHOULD BE CAREFUL ABOUT INVOKING THEOLOGY ON HIS PART, AS WELL.

YOU KNOW, AS I MENTIONED EARLIER, THERE IS A REAL DEBATE TO BE HAD ABOUT WARS AND THE ROLE OF FAITH AND WHETHER A WAR QUALIFIES AS A JUST WAR, OR NOT.

I THINK, THE TROUBLE WITH VICE PRESIDENT VANCE IS NOT THE CRITIQUE THAT YOU READ FROM AS IT RELATES TO THE POPE.

THOSE ARE FAIR QUESTIONS TO ASK.

I THINK THE TROUBLE WITH J.D.

VANCE, APART FROM THE FACT THAT HE IS A RECENT CONVERT TO CATHOLICISM, IS THAT HIS LIFE HAS SHOWN ITSELF TO BE ONE THAT ABUSES FAITH IN ORDER TO PURSUE POWER, AND TO -- AND TO PROMOTE DONALD TRUMP AND THE MAGA AGENDA, SO IN SOME SENSE, I THINK HE HAS DISQUALIFIED HIMSELF FROM THE START FOR THIS DEBATE.

>> SO, I WANTED TO LOOP BACK TO WHERE WE STARTED OUR CONVERSATION WHICH IS TO SAY, THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE WHO HAVE TOLD ME, FOR EXAMPLE, "WELL, I VOTED FOR HIM BECAUSE OF ABORTION, AND THERE WAS REALLY NO OTHER CHOICE."

OR, THE PEOPLE WHO SAY, "WELL, I MIGHT NOT LIKE THE WAY HE TALKS ABOUT PEOPLE, BUT HE IS PROMOTING THE THINGS THAT I CARE ABOUT."

LIKE, "I BELIEVE IN A STRONG, TRADITIONAL FAMILY STRUCTURE."

SO, HOW WOULD YOU WANT PEOPLE, PARTICULARLY PEOPLE WHO HAVE THAT POINT OF VIEW, TO THINK ABOUT THIS?

TO THINK ABOUT THE CURRENT MOMENT?

>> THE FIRST THING I WOULD SAY IS, IF YOU THINK DONALD TRUMP'S AGENDA IS PROMOTING THE THINGS YOU CARE MOST ABOUT, WHETHER IT IS ABORTION, OR -- LET'S SET ASIDE THE FACT THAT I THINK -- LET'S JUST SAY FOR THE SAKE OF THE ARGUMENT, HE IS.

YOU CAN DO TWO THINGS AT ONCE.

YOU CAN PRAISE HIM FOR WHAT YOU THINK HIS POLICY ACHIEVEMENTS ARE AND YOU CAN CALL HIM OUT FOR LOW MORALITY, AND CORRUPTION, AND UNETHICAL BEHAVIOR.

THE PROBLEM FOR A LOT OF THE EVANGELICALS AND FUNDAMENTALISTS IS THEY HAVE NOT DONE THAT.

THEY HAVE TOSSED THAT HAT OVER THE WALL AND THEY HAVE CHAMPION HIM AND DEFENDED HIM AT EVERY SINGLE POINT ALONG THIS UGLY PATH, AND YOU DON'T NEED TO DO THAT.

YOU DON'T NEED TO GIVE UP YOUR INDEPENDENCE OF JUDGMENT, OR YOUR MORAL INDEPENDENCE, FOR A POLITICAL LEADER.

AND THE LAST THING I WOULD SAY IS THAT, IF WHAT IS BEING PRODUCED -- AND HERE, I AM SPEAKING, YOU KNOW, TO CHRISTIANS -- IF WHAT IS BEING PRODUCED IS AN ACT THAT IS ANTITHETICAL TO THE ACTS OF JESUS, THEN YOU OUGHT TO ASK YOUR SELF A SECOND AND A THIRD TIME, "AM I ON THE RIGHT PATH?

AM I SUPPORTING THE RIGHT CAUSE?

AM I SUPPORTING THE RIGHT PERSON?"

I THINK THE ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION IS PRETTY CLEAR, AND I THINK ONLY SOMEBODY WITH A DEEP, VESTED INTEREST IN THE OUTCOME, CAN COME AWAY AND SAY, "DONALD TRUMP AND HIS ADMINISTRATION, OVER THESE LAST 10 YEARS, IS THE PERSONIFICATION OF A CHRISTIAN ETHIC."

HE IS THE OPPOSITE OF THAT, AND PEOPLE WHO VALUE THEIR FAITH, SHOULD SPEAK UP MORE OFTEN THAN THEY DO, FOR THE SAKE OF A COUNTRY THEY LOVE, AND FOR THE SAKE OF THE FAITH THAT THEY LOVE.

>> PETER WEHNER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH ME.

>> THANKS.