- And your moderator for the evening.

With us tonight are the two Ogden mayoral candidates: Taylor Knuth, the deputy director of the Salt Lake City Arts Council, and Ben Nadolski, a current Ogden City Council member.

The candidates will be answering questions compiled by me, local journalists, and students.

The format for this debate is as follows.

We'll allow 90 seconds for each candidate's response to a question.

I may pose a follow-up question or allow for a 30-second rebuttal as I see fit.

Rebuttals will be limited to one each per question.

I'll try my best to fact check as we go along and ask candidates for clarification or to cite a source when necessary.

Near the end of the debate, we'll pose a handful of rapid-fire questions that should be met with a yes-or-no answer, and we'll then move to closing statements.

Finally, we do have a live audience, and I'll ask you all to please hold your applause until the end of the debate.

We have determined through a coin flip who will answer the first question and will alternate responses after that.

And without further ado, first off, what is your elevator pitch as to why Ogden residents should vote for you?

Mr. Knuth.

- Awesome.

Well, I wanna start off tonight by saying thank you to our hosts KUER, PBS, of course, Caroline, and Weber State University and the Walker Institute.

Thank you for my opponent for being in this race.

And most importantly, thank you all for showing up tonight.

I know you all cleared your schedules to be here and engaged in the democratic process.

So just simply put, thank you.

With that, my name is Taylor Knuth, and I'm running to be the next mayor of Ogden City.

You know, if you would've told me a year ago that I'd be sitting on this stage today talking about being the next mayor of Ogden and sharing my vision with all of you, I don't know if I would've believed you.

Because quite frankly, people like me aren't meant to run for office, let alone win a primary.

You know, I grew up with a single mom, who often worked two jobs, and three sisters.

And I got my first job working for the Standard-Examiner at the age of 12 to help pay the bills.

Fast-forward to 2011, I moved to Ogden, and I began to build my life.

I built my first home right here in Ogden, becoming a first-generation home buyer.

I graduated from Weber State, becoming a first-generation college student.

I started my career in public service right here, that I've been spending 10 long years in public service.

And I met the love of my life and built my family right here in Ogden.

What I'm excited to talk to you about tonight, today, is getting back to the basics of good government, which for me is building up our community, creating connections with our neighbors, and preserving the character of our city.

And we have to do all of those things at once.

So, you know, I really look forward to a conversation tonight, and thank you for being here.

- Thank you.

Mr. Nadolski.

- (laughs) Thank you.

And thank you to everyone for being here.

And thank you to the organizers.

It's amazing to see such a full room tonight.

I guess my elevator pitch starts a little bit with a story, because Weber State is the place that built me.

And the first time I set foot in Ogden, it was one of those really windy days.

It was windy all night long.

There was snow on the ground.

It was bitter cold.

I came and toured the campus.

I toured the football stadium.

I played football here at Weber State.

And I don't know why, but I just felt like I was at home.

Weber State didn't have the major that I needed at the time.

It didn't have the winning program.

They didn't have the fancy facilities or the fancy uniforms.

But they had what I wanted, and it was a community of people that embraced me.

And I just felt at home here.

I've felt at home here ever since.

I feel at home here tonight with all of you, so thank you.

Since that time, I have been so blessed to be in Ogden and to have had this experience at Weber State, to build a life here, and to build experience here.

I have over 20 years of experience in public administration, public policy, and public finance.

I currently supervise operations for the Utah Division of Wildlife Resources.

I oversee all operations in northern Utah, including supervision of 70 employees and a $17 million annual budget.

I'm really proud of the work that we do.

I'm really proud of the team that we have.

I spent five years working in legislative affairs and worked on behalf of the governor's Public Lands Office on a number of really complicated issues, and I look forward to putting that experience to work for you.

- Thank you.

- Thank you.

- In the past, the Ogden mayor and city council have both had smooth and rocky relationships.

How would you build trust with the council?

Mr. Nadolski.

- Thank you.

We've had smooth and rocky relationships because government is anything but basic.

Operating government is really complicated.

There are two sides of the government.

It's important that both sides play their part equally.

There is sometimes friction in the system, and that's by design.

The idea is that the best ideas come forward.

That's what I feel like I've been able to do as a member of the city council.

But in my role working in legislative affairs for the Division of Wildlife, same form of government, where we are working with the legislature, on behalf of the agency.

We make huge strides to communicate with our legislative delegation to make sure that what we are doing is not something that they find fault in before we get to the end of the process.

It's something that we look to find alignment before we get to the end, so that we make sure that we are always doing better along the way.

In my role at the city, I've always felt like it's important that I express my conscience, that I vote my conscience.

That I use my mic with my conscience first, making sure that I do my best and do right.

And I know that my colleagues are doing the same thing.

And I have to know that the administration's doing their best as well.

If I see something I don't agree with, I disagree with my microphone and with my voice.

That's my job.

But it's so important that we allow for the grace, allow for the administration and our council peers to express their conscience, and to do so with grace, and give them forgiveness when they disagree.

It's okay to disagree.

Let's just not do it by being disagreeable.

- Thank you.

Same question.

- Are we 90 seconds or 60 seconds?

- 90 seconds, and there's a little timer.

- Okay, perfect.

You know, when we talk about getting back to the basics of good government, that means building connections, creating connections with people.

And that includes our peers on city council.

And of course, if I were the mayor, that would be a priority.

And this is not dissimilar to what I do for my job full-time.

You know, in the Department of Economic Development we regularly engage with our council peers.

And it requires honesty, it requires transparency, and it requires integrity throughout the entire process.

And what I've learned in my decades-long career in public service is that we make our best decisions when we make them with the best people at the table.

You know, a few years ago I worked on addressing the Marshall White Center.

Many of us in this room were a part of that fight in saving the Marshall White Center.

The Marshall White Center's pool closed in 2017, and it wasn't addressed until 2021 the root causes of those issues.

And the way we got that done was working with city council, working with the Ogden City mayor at the time.

And we worked together to meet the basic needs of our community, which include community centers, recreation, and ensuring that our young people have a place to call home, when home is in a safe place.

You know, I shared with you all earlier that I grew up with a single mom.

That often meant going home to an empty home and being raised by TV and Top Ramen.

And being able to go to that community center as a kid saved my life.

And that's why we need to work with the city council and the mayor to get things done.

- Thank you.

According to 2022 American community service, excuse me, 2022 American Community Survey census data, Ogden is 63% white and 30% Hispanic, with other races and ethnicities in single-digit percentages.

Ogden established its Diversity Commission in 2016.

In your view, how should the city use that body to most effectively reach underrepresented groups?

Mr. Knuth.

- This is a great question.

And I actually wrote a recommendation for the city council to follow several years ago about how best to serve the Ogden Diversity Commission and all mayor-appointed commissions of the city.

You know, I was a founding member of the Ogden City Diversity Commission.

I was the chair of the Ogden City Diversity Commission in times when we needed it most.

And I, in my annual report, as outgoing chair, I recommended to the city council how we can approach city boards and commissions in ways that are most inclusive of everybody in our community, and in ways that serve the ultimate goal of the Ogden City Diversity Commission, which is to create a city where everybody belongs.

And I would be hard pressed to find someone in this room who disagrees with that tenant.

And so we have a roadmap of how to be more inclusive.

We provided that two years ago, and we're still waiting for those recommendations to be acted on by this council and the administration.

And it's why we've talked about, under a Knuth administration, revising the way cities go about creating and sustaining commissions and boards that are appointed by the mayor.

You can ask anybody who serves on a local board or commission for the city, and they will express to you a similar sentiment of being frustrated that they feel like they have not been heard by the people who appointed them to do the job.

And so this conversation about getting back to the basics of good government means preserving the character of our city, which means listening to the boards and commissions that we have tasked with doing a hard job, be that the Sustainability Commission, the Diversity Commission, or the likes.

- Mr. Nadolski.

- Thank you.

I'm really proud to have been a part of the council that appointed the diversity to begin with, that established the ordinance that created its existence.

And I think the first thing that we need to do to make sure that that body functions effectively is to make sure that we're using it.

Where I've seen friction, both from my opponent and from others who have participated in it, and where we've seen, frankly, divisiveness, is where that body hasn't been used, and we've got an administration that doesn't value it.

And that's not what I intend to do.

As a council we value that body.

We wanna see it used more.

I think that any administration needs to engage that Diversity Commission, make sure that we're appointing members who are active in every part of our community, so that we can reach every neighborhood and every child and every person who has opportunities to participate in our projects and programs.

We're creating programs that are unbelievable.

We have programs for kids that no other city has.

And I know there's kids out there that don't have access.

The program is built for them to have access and want to find those kids desperately.

I work with coaches like Kevin Lundell.

And I've done this before.

Sorry.

But these are people that really care.

These are people that really want to find those children.

And that's what a diversity commission is there to do to help us with.

Where we're failing or where we're falling short, help us, because we need to find them.

We need to give them access.

We need to give them opportunity.

Because they have opportunities to thrive, if they can connect.

- Thank you.

- Thanks.

- Am I first?

I lost track.

(Caroline and Taylor laugh) - Again, we're- - I think it's back to me.

- Okay, good.

- flipping back and forth.

Much of the conversation in Ogden politics seems to center on downtown and the East Bench.

What are your plans for West Ogden, Mr. Nadolski?

- Thank you.

I would say it focuses on downtown, and I think we need to also be focusing about on the north side of town too.

We have a big city, and every part of our town is different.

Downtown is where every town starts, and the energy and momentum builds from there.

But we can't forget about West Ogden.

There's a massive barrier between all of Ogden and West Ogden.

And people that live out there feel like they're separated, and they don't have access.

The one thing that I really wish they had out there, and because I'm so passionate about youth and youth recreation, is I really wish they had a ball court out there.

They used to have one.

It used to be an area that people felt like was a problem.

And they felt like it added to the problems at night.

I want to use it in the reverse way.

Make sure that those kids have access to a facility that they need for recreation, to keep them out of trouble.

I also wanna make sure that we're looking at the neighborhood and giving them opportunities to develop, just like we do everywhere else, through our neighborhood programs, through our quality neighborhoods initiative.

I wanna make sure that their infrastructure, their roads, their sidewalks, their curb and gutter, should never be ignored out there.

They're probably in as bad a shape as anywhere out there, and that's where they need the help the most.

Infrastructure, infrastructure, infrastructure.

They need clean water.

They need a safe place to work or live.

And they need to make sure that they've got access to everything that the rest of the city does.

And I also want to stress that the north end of town needs it too.

- Mr. Knuth, your plans for West Ogden.

- Thanks.

This is a really important question.

You know, I talk a lot about economic development, and I talk a lot about the investments that our city has made in our downtown, which are worthy investments and in need of further resources.

But I've also talked a lot about the need to walk and chew gum at the same time, if you will.

I've talked about the need for a grocery store, about 12th Street, and the enhancement of Five Points.

I've talked about the enhancement of campus life up here for students and people who live around Weber State.

But we haven't really talked about West Ogden.

And that's pretty disappointing, because now that I'm reflecting on it, West Ogden is actually one of my favorite places to be.

I mean, have you been to B Street and had their cheese curds?

They are the best in town.

And really, let's talk about how West Ogden, for many people, for visitors and residents alike, is the gateway to our city.

People drive right through that.

I don't want people to drive through that.

I want people to stop and stay and enjoy their time on our front porch, what is our front porch of the city.

And we have some incredible assets that are already in West Ogden and some emerging assets that are really exciting.

The development that's happening around B Street is not only notable and worthy, but it's exciting.

The development that's happening with the improvements being made to Fort Buenaventura and the park down by the river, that's exciting.

We have a kayak put-in space out there.

This space has such a tremendous amount of potential for our city, and we need someone who has the economic development experience to activate and bring excitement to that area.

- Thank you.

- Can I add to that point?

- Rebuttal?

Yeah, 30 seconds.

- Yeah.

Not so much to rebut, but to add to the conversation.

The fact that West Ogden does have these new amenities, I'm really actually really proud and glad you brought up the wave park, 'cause that's something I worked on in my day job as a river restoration professional back in the day.

But it's so important, as we talk about changes like making sure that the 24th Street interchange goes both directions, making sure that we have access to new open space, that we're bringing new amenities like the 24th Street viaduct, that we're not kicking people out who live there.

Making sure that we're planning.

and we're preparing and growing in a way that includes them.

- Thank you.

Perhaps one of the most pressing issues right now throughout Utah, and in Ogden, is the affordability of housing.

And to hear more about that, we have a student question.

- I love that.

- Thank you.

My name is Isaac Eck.

I'm a student here at Weber State studying political science.

As someone who attends school full-time, I often find it difficult to be able to afford both school and pay my rent.

As prices continue to go up, it's become increasingly difficult to pay for rent.

As mayor, what do you intend to do to ensure rental prices don't continue to be unattainable?

- And that goes first to Mr. Knuth.

- Yeah.

Isaac, first, just let me say thank you.

And I'm sorry this is your experience, and I can relate to it because it was my own.

You know, I lived just off campus when I first got here.

I lived in a townhouse with a few other guys.

And I was that student who had to purchase a Little Caesars pizza on Monday and keep it for the rest of the week so that I can make ends meet.

And it wasn't until someone in this room actually started a student food pantry to care for students like me that I realized that Ogden was just full of people ready and willing to do good.

But, you know, in a Knuth administration, we would establish the first ever housing stability division in our city.

A division that would be dedicated to addressing both the conversation of affordability and attainability.

You know, oftentimes we know that a lot of our residents are one emergency away from not making rent and potentially joining our unhoused population.

That's a concern for me, and I've been there.

I've felt it my entire life.

And so I'm sorry you're experiencing this, but there are things we can do.

We can expand the Own in Ogden program to have a larger down payment assistance, especially for our public servants, like police officers and teachers.

We can ensure that our investments of federal dollars go towards high-quality, attainable, and affordable housing.

And we can work with private developers to create developments in our community that enhance the quality of life for people already here, and make sure people like you can stay.

Thanks, Isaac, for the question.

- Mr. Nadolski.

- Yeah.

- Yeah, and thank you for the question, Isaac.

I feel you're pain too.

When I was in college at Weber State, at one time we had 17 people living in one house because we were trying to drive the cost of rent down.

I remember getting it down to $87 a month for me, and I felt like that was something maybe I could pull off.

It's not like that anymore.

It's even worse.

It's much, much harder.

So I empathize with your plight.

The challenge is, nationwide this is a struggle.

Across the Wasatch Front, across Utah, this is an accelerating issue.

People are having a really hard time making ends meet, just like we did, and it's unfortunate.

You're gonna have a really hard time, too, when you graduate, especially if you have student debt, to make sure that you're affording a home to even buy.

And it's hugely important that you have the opportunity, because if you can't buy a home, you can't build wealth.

And if you can't build wealth, you're not gonna be able to change your circumstance.

And certainly not for the generation after you.

So there's a lot of things that we need to do to fix this issue.

I think there's things that we can do with our housing, our HUD grant.

We're coming up on a five-year renewal on our HUD cycle.

I think we can change that to make sure that we are really targeted toward affordability.

There's things that we can do to change the process for advertising for developments, to make sure that we're getting the best deal possible, so that it's competitive, open, transparent, and honest.

That gets the best deal possible and the lowest rent, the lowest sale price possible.

There's things we can do to streamline our process in the city to make sure that we're not adding burdens and extra costs to the developments.

But all those things that we do, density, bonuses, whatever it is, it's gonna take serious experience to make sure we implement 'cause this is a serious issue.

- Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you, Isaac.

- [Isaac] Thanks for answering.

- This question is for Mr. Nadolski.

You answered for our KUER voter guide that there are more than enough rental units in Ogden, and the focus should be on getting families into home ownership.

Given how expensive home ownership is right now, what specific steps can the city take to help people on that path?

- Got you.

So I don't remember exactly how the question was worded or how, that was months ago, but my point was that we don't have appropriate balance of rentals versus opportunities for ownership.

There is nothing wrong with rentals.

I rented.

Everybody needs an opportunity to rent.

It's a requirement for almost all of us at some point in our life.

But we need to make sure that we have opportunities for ownership too, both when we first start out, maybe into a second home, like my wife and I did, and then maybe into a retirement home.

And then someone else can come behind us.

It's a cycle.

And if we're missing any of those pieces in that cycle, we don't have a healthy housing stock for our community to make sure that we provide that spectrum of housing affordability and type.

So my point is that we need to leverage our RDA, our redevelopment agency, the properties that we own as an RDA, and target those properties for home ownership opportunity.

Make sure that when we're doing our general plan revision, that we're putting zoning in place that attracts the rentals in the places where we need them.

Where we have transportation hubs and nodes.

Where we have access to restaurants and entertainment and to schools.

Those are the places where those high-density apartments are supposed to be located, not in the commercial zones where they're currently popping up.

Good zoning, good planning, good leverage of our RDA, smart use of our money, that's the answer.

And anytime we an RDA project, there's opportunities for tax increment.

I'm not anti-incentive, but I am anti-incentives that are wasted.

And I wanna make sure that the incentives we use go to the people that live here and need it so that we can keep that wealth here and keep it with you.

- Thank you.

- Thanks.

- Mr. Knuth, your response on this question of home ownership versus rentals.

- Absolutely.

You know, you'll never hear me create an us versus them narrative with people who rent or people who own.

I mean, my mom wasn't a homeowner until well into her 30s, and I was only able to afford a home because of the Own in Ogden program and because of the massive investment our city made in a redevelopment project that put 23 brand-new homes in the middle of East Central Ogden.

Eight of them were lease-to-own, and the rest were market rate.

And let me tell you a little bit about the ecosystem of that neighborhood that I spent my first three years as a homeowner in.

We took of each other.

We took care of each other in ways that other communities could learn from.

Because when I mentioned that eight of these homes were lease-to-own, you know, we were neighbors with single parents.

We were neighbors with disabled veterans who had partners that were going to school at night and caring for their two children.

And we came together as a community to address the basic needs of our neighborhood.

And that's what getting back to the basics of good government is about.

It's about creating these connections and building our community.

We need broad spectrum housing.

And I have that example that I've just shared with you about what happens when broad spectrum housing works.

We take care of each other.

So we need that housing stability division.

We need to expand the Own in Ogden program.

We need to make sure we're meeting residents where they are so that we can ensure their long-term success in our community, as we continue to grow.

Thanks for the question.

- With rising housing prices comes rising homelessness.

What should the city's role be when it comes to addressing homelessness?

Mr. Knuth.

- This is probably one of the most important topics we'll talk about.

And what we know about homelessness is the best way to solve homelessness is to actually prevent it.

And, you know, I shared in last night's forum that I have been personally connected with someone who has experienced homelessness for most of my life.

And I'm sure many of us in this room have family members or friends who share a similar experience.

And what we know is that living unsheltered is a hard, hard situation.

Now, that doesn't excuse any of the activity that may or may not happen around homelessness, but what we do need to do as a city is center the humanity and dignity of everybody living in our city, including those who are unsheltered.

You know, we have our homeless service advocates.

There are two full-time social workers that sit on the Ogden City police force that are dedicated full-time to building relationships with unsheltered people.

In fact, I met someone on the bus today who works with Anna Davidson, one of our homeless services providers.

And he shared with me that he works four 12s that start at 3:00 AM and end at 3:00 PM.

And that's 48 hour of work, and he's still sleeping on the side of the mountain.

We have to do something about this.

We have to do something about this because it's not only the ethical and moral decision that we should be making as a city, but it's the financially responsible decision we should be making as a city.

Thanks for the question.

- Mr. Nadolski, what should the city's role be when it comes to addressing homelessness?

- Thank you.

And I think the gentleman you're referring to, his name's Cliff.

He's my neighbor.

(audience chuckles) And I mean that with sincerity and with a lot of love.

He actually, he's a good person.

He has a long career fighting fires for the Forest Service.

And he was injured, and he's had a lot of hard luck.

And people like that deserve dignity.

But he is a neighbor.

He helps people shovel snow.

He does everything that a neighbor does.

He deserves all of the help that he possibly can have to make sure that he can make it work.

And what we have to do as a city, the role that the city should be playing is leader.

We need to be leading out as a city.

We are the biggest city in Weber County.

That's why we need to be participating in all of the countywide efforts that go around homelessness.

That's why we need to attend the countywide mayoral meetings where these issues are discussed and resolved.

That's why we need to be leading out with the advocates that we established in the budget through the city council process.

That's why we need to make sure that we have more advocates.

That's why we need to make sure that we're treating these issues singular, with one-on-one.

What are your barriers?

What were your pathways to homelessness?

Everybody's different.

We have to have better healthcare.

We have to have better mental health treatment.

We're gonna need the bond that the county's pushing because we need that kind of help.

And we need deeply, deeply affordable housing.

Not just here, but everywhere else in the county.

'Cause if we get them off the streets, they need a place to go.

A place that's warm, safe, and stable.

That's what we need to be leading out on.

- We have now reached the halfway point of the Ogden mayoral debate featuring Ben Nadolski and Taylor Knuth.

I'm Caroline Ballard, assistant news director at KUER and your moderator this evening.

Let's turn now to public safety.

This May, Fox 13 investigated reports of the Ogden Police Department allegedly writing tickets to meet quotas.

The use of quotas is illegal in the state.

Ogden police chief Eric Young said the department does not use a quota system, but a point system.

Fox 13 talked both with officers, who felt squeezed by the system, and residents unhappy with it.

Are you in favor of continuing the point system?

Mr. Nadolski.

- I'm not in favor of it.

That's my opinion that I expressed right from the beginning when it first came up.

A lot of people have looked at this.

I'm not an attorney, but I don't think I need to be an attorney to know that it erodes trust when people think or know that there is a quota in our city.

Whether it is or isn't, this creates mistrust.

But don't just take my word for it.

The Ogden Police Benefits Association and the Fraternal Order of Police don't like it either.

They abide by it, they accept the legal interpretation of the legal department and the Attorney General's Office, but they don't want to be forced to write tickets, either.

It creates mistrust for them.

It makes their job a lot harder.

I would rather empower our officers with the discretion that they have to write a ticket when it's necessary and to give a warning when they think it's warranted.

I trust them to make those decisions.

That's why we hire them.

That's why we put them on the streets and with a badge.

I think that they need help earning trust in the community, and I don't think that helps whatsoever.

So no, I don't support it, and moving forward, I want to make sure that we are doing everything to the letter of the law and to the spirit of the law so that we are building those relationships with our community, not burning them through some sort of an argument or semantics about quota or point system.

Thanks.

- Mr. Knuth.

- Awesome.

I can be pretty quick on this answer.

And the answer is that I don't support a ticket quota system.

But what I want to say as the nuance behind my response is, if you've met Chief Eric Young, you will have met the best police chief in the state.

He literally just got an award for it.

And he shared with the council and the mayor that he did not believe that this was a ticket quota system.

And he believed that he was following the letter of the law as written by the state of Utah.

Now, I've shared pretty publicly that I read the law, and that I think the law needs some additional clarification, especially if our chief of police, who just won Police Chief of the Year, is telling our city that he is following the letter of the law.

So, you know, a Knuth administration would work with our state legislature to clarify that law, to make sure that Ogden City Police Department is in compliance with every state and federal regulation that helps them do their jobs each and every day, because their job is a tough job.

And I agree with Mr. Nadolski that, at the end of the day, this situation eroded trust in our public safety apparatus.

And, you know, I have worked over the years time and time again with our law enforcement officers to ensure that trust is there.

For an entire summer I convened meetings with community leaders here in Ogden City and the Ogden City police force, along with the Weber County Sheriff's Office.

And we had conversations.

And what I can tell you about those conversations is that if you would've given us enough money and time, we could have solved the world's problems in that room.

And that is our philosophy of getting back to the basics of good government: by building our community and engaging in the conversations that matter, especially public safety.

- And this is a follow-up on this topic.

How would you plan to improve transparency and build trust in the Ogden Police Department?

Mr. Knuth.

- Yeah, great question.

Again, I'll answer doing more of what we've already done.

When police relations were at their height, especially in the media, we got to work as an Ogden City Diversity Commission.

I picked up the phone and I called Chief Watt, who was the chief of police before Eric Young, and I said, "Hey, Chief, what can we do about this?"

We didn't know what we could do about this, but we knew we can start having conversations.

And so every week, for the entire summer, myself and Adrienne Andrews, who is the vice chair of the Diversity Commission at the time, we met with CAO at the time, Mark Johnson, and Chief Randy Watt and sometimes Mayor Caldwell.

And we just talked.

We talked and we talked about solutions that we could bring to our community in the aim of helping accomplish greater trust and respect between our police officers and the general community.

Continuing that conversation into that monthly meeting that I was talking to you about, we have a data transparency dashboard in Ogden City for the first time because of those meetings.

We have hired more diverse officers on the Ogden City police force in the last two or three years than in the three or five years before that because of those meetings.

And this is what I'm talking about when we're talking about building community.

I am talking about including the voices of those most impacted by the decisions we're making at each and every table we sit at throughout our days.

When we held those meetings, I insisted to Chief Watt that beat cops, that our everyday law enforcement officers, had a seat at that table because they have a valuable perspective that can and should be listened to by our elected officials and especially the Ogden City mayor.

- Mr. Nadolski.

- Thanks.

So my opponent keeps saying, "Get back to the basics of government."

There's nothing basic about this particular issue.

In fact, it's really complicated.

This is a serious issue that needs serious people, with serious solutions.

And it's gonna require a serious experience.

Nationwide, this is a really hard challenge for police forces and communities.

We have to address it.

The first thing we can do is we can eliminate this apparent quota by equalizing the points between tickets and warnings.

Let's take care of that.

Let's move on.

But then we need to make sure that we have officers who are working with our youth, officers who have time to spend with everyone that they run across.

Right now we have police officers who have the highest call volume per officer in the state.

They are running from call to call to call to call.

They are incredibly busy, and they don't have time to get out of their vehicle and walk around.

They don't have time to be able to work with youth.

But we need to find a way to improve our staffing.

Right now we're at full staff.

It's the first time in years.

We've gotta get it to a point where we have enough officers that we can spread out those calls, give those guys enough time to get out of their vehicle, spend time with people on the street one-on-one, and have time to work with kids.

That's how you build community connection and how you build relationships and how you build trust.

And making sure that they live in our community, that kids go to school in our community, those are all incredibly important steps to make sure that we're building bridges for our community and our police department.

- Mr. Knuth, I'll give you 30 seconds.

- I'd like to rebuttal on this one.

- Yes.

You know, my opponent today talked about officer involvement in youth sports, and he's mentioned this a few times.

And quite frankly, we need leadership that goes beyond youth sports and our officers coaching young people.

Yes, it's important, youth sports are vital to the success of young people, but he also mentioned the high call volume.

How is an officer supposed to engage in reducing their call volumes if our mayor is asking them to coach youth sports?

How are we supposed to increase officer pay if our mayor is asking them to engage in youth sports?

So I appreciate the sentiments, Ben, but this is a far more complex topic than engaging in youth sports.

- So I would just posit that our youth is our future, if they are our number one priority.

If they're not, we have our priorities wrong.

I also think that there was a time where we supported our officers to be on boards of directors and local community organizations.

Why can't that be included in coaching?

And it doesn't have to be just coaching.

It's anything that mentors youth.

That's my point.

It's not just coaching, it's kids.

They are our future.

They matter the most.

If they're not our priority now, they have got to be, or you've got our priorities wrong.

Thanks.

- Thank you both.

This question is for Mr. Knuth.

You've said you'd like to create Ogden's own 411 line to address nonviolent crime.

- Absolutely.

- How would you accomplish that and get the city council on board?

- 411 lines are not uncommon to have in cities, you guys.

They're very common.

Most major cities across the entire United States have a 411 line so that residents who are engaged in a non-life threatening, non-emergency situation can call into their local city and be connected with the right department quickly.

We're talking I have a pothole that keeps popping my tire.

You know, there's a cracked sidewalk that I keep tripping on.

Or, you know, there's a person on the street screaming.

We have a mental health crisis outreach team that's ran through the county.

It's underresourced and understaffed.

We as Ogden City should be better partners to the MCOT team.

We have our homeless service advocates that I've mentioned a few times now.

There's only two of them.

There could probably be four of them to respond to the situations that are happening in our community.

So a 411 line is a pretty basic function of local government that's missing in Ogden.

And, you know, we have 600 and some 650, 660 full-time employees that work for Ogden City.

And what I can tell you about them is there's no possible way they can examine all 307 miles that Ogden City is responsible for preserving our roads, or the 500-plus miles of sidewalk we have to take care of.

But you know who can help us accomplish the aim of improving our infrastructure?

You all, 87,000 of us, who can call, text, open an app, and report a situation so that our government can be more responsive.

That's what getting back to the basics of good government is about.

- Mr. Nadolski.

- Thanks.

So is this specific to the police department or the rest of the city?

- 'Cause it was his proposal.

- So your response on a plan to create a 411 line.

- Okay.

So specific to the police department, we actually looked at customer service through surveys.

Weber State does a survey for us.

They have a really hard time with low-priority calls because they are so rushed to high-priority calls.

So the first thing we need to do is make sure that we can increase the size of our staff, especially on our patrol bureau.

We don't have enough officers for a city of our size.

If you look at nationwide comparisons, the FBI's done analyses, and so have others, we don't have as many officers as we should for the number of people we are serving.

We can make sure that we're providing efficiencies so that we don't have to bloat our force, but we do need to make sure that we're not overburdening our officers, our firefighters.

And the same thing goes with our staff.

We have a massive daytime population in this city that comes here, works here.

They come at night to entertainment here.

And those people require service.

And we need to make sure that we have a staff that is large enough and robust enough to fulfill those service needs.

Having a 411 line would be fantastic, but we've gotta make sure that when people call that line, that we have someone on the other end of the line that can respond.

Because there's nothing worse than calling and reporting an issue and not having someone do something about it.

I think that actually reverses the relationship of trust with the community, if we're not being responsive.

So I wanna make sure that we've got the resources in place where we need them, across the board, so that when people call and need that help, need that infrastructure, that we've got the money to fund it.

That's why infrastructure is my number one priority.

We have got way too much delayed maintenance in our infrastructure.

Thank you.

- In 2022, Ogden had 73 incidents of pedestrians involved in crashes.

That's compared to 22 incidents in the same timeframe in Salt Lake City, a much bigger city.

That information is from the Utah Department of Public Safety's Highway Safety Office.

What is your plan to make Ogden streets safer?

Mr. Nadolski.

- Thank you.

I know that if you look at accident data, we have some really hotspots in our city.

Those city hotspots aren't necessarily city responsibility.

I shouldn't say responsibility.

City-owned roads.

Public safety is everyone's responsibility.

It's our first responsibility.

I'm really happy to say that we have an engineering division and public works that know how to do the best kind of work possible.

We need to empower them with the resources to fix those issues.

I know they have the relationships with UDOT that we need, so let's leverage those relationships to fix those hotspots.

I bet if we fix those hotspots, we would see our numbers go drastically down.

But this isn't just about numbers, this is about people.

Those are people getting hurt and getting killed.

Where are we having issues?

How much does it cost?

Let's get on board and get it fixed.

If we need to, let's engage the legislature.

These are huge costs, sometimes.

They might include a foot bridge or pedestrian bridge.

They might include different roadway construction.

Some things maybe we can't afford, but some things, maybe, that's the state's responsibility.

Let's make sure to leverage my five years of experience working in legislative affairs to engage our legislators, to fund those kinds of projects for us now rather than waiting until more people get hurt.

That's why we have to have a partnership at the Capitol.

We can't just lollygag into the Capitol and hope that we're gonna get what we need.

We have to be really specific, have really strong ties and partnerships with our legislators, because this is their community too.

They want to serve this community.

Let's help them by making sure they know where the issues are and the resources we need so they can help us provide for it.

Thank you.

- Mr. Knuth.

- Awesome.

I really love this question, because when we talk about getting back to the basics of good government, it's about keeping people safe on our streets and on our sidewalks.

And unfortunately, Ogden City has been pretty reactive in designing streets and sidewalks that are safe for our community.

In fact, the first midblock crossing walk in our entire city was the result of an incredibly tragic incident in which an unsheltered person was hit and killed by a car on Wall Avenue.

And that midblock crossing with that was lighted was then created.

And then I think Ogden City got wise to midblock crossings, and we started to install them across the city, including the hotspots like in front of the city building, where multiple people have been hit and unfortunately killed.

But I wanna share with you a story about my neighbor Ava.

When I was at Weber State University as a director of development for community development, I secured the first million-dollar gift for this office.

And what we did with this gift is we put trust in our community to solve issues just like this.

And, you know, my neighbor Ava, she wanted to clean up Lester Park because she's a stay-at-home mom with some kids that she homeschools, and they use that park to build their family and to create connections with with their neighbors.

And, you know, one of the most impressive things that Ava has done, she's done a lot.

She does trash pickups once a week.

She's created recreation checkout kits at the library.

But she worked with private partners, the city, and Weber State to install a lighted crosswalk on the corner of 24th and Jefferson because she was anxious that young people going to the park may get hit by a car.

This is the kind of response we need in our infrastructure to serve our community.

- Thank you.

Ogden is in a period of flux, and there's a lot of initiatives and development.

So to start us off on this topic, we have a reporter question.

- Oh.

Yeah.

- Thank you.

I'm Tim Vandenack with the Standard-Examiner.

So given the new development all around Ogden, big projects like WonderBlock, the stalled apartment building project at 144, 25th, the Capital Square upgrade, and all the many other apartment plans and more, how do you strike a balance between respecting property rights and keeping a proper check on development to keep it from getting out of control?

And obviously the context, the relationship between developers in the city has been an ongoing topic of debate at City Hall, and the issues with 144, 25th kind of raised questions about how close an eye city officials were keeping on the building.

- Mr. Knuth.

- Awesome.

This is a really important question because what we know about our city is that we're a growing city, right?

The Kem C. Gardner Policy Institute estimates that our population could nearly double by 2060, which is a pretty daunting challenge.

And I wanna talk about the general plan of our city.

Most cities across the country use the general plan to help guide their growth.

You know, 5 to 10-year increments, it's always being updated.

And in short, we use that plan to ensure we're building in the right places, at the right times, and at the right height, and at the right density.

This is a plan that has not been updated since the early 2000s in our city.

We have completely missed the boat at updating the plan that will help us preserve the character of our city, which is one of our core values as a Knuth campaign, and it would be a core value of us, moving forward.

Now, as a full-time economic development professional, I work each and every day with private development to ensure that we have successful outcomes for the benefit of residents and visitors to our city.

I've shared this philosophy before, but economic development should be a three-legged stool.

Big business recruitment, workforce development, and partnering with our educational institutions, to make sure we're creating the future workers of our economy, and small business retention and growth.

And as a Knuth administration, we would be there to support our small businesses.

We would be at the table with private developers and large businesses to ensure that the projects that they want to do in our community are inclusive of you.

As we grow, it should not reduce the quality of life for people already here, it should enhance it.

- Thank you.

Mr. Nadolski.

Thank you.

I'm gonna start with planning, planning, planning.

So I'm gonna use an example.

And maybe it's not a good example 'cause I'm a terrible dancer.

But if you've ever danced and you're dancing with a partner, you better hope that they're a good dancer, or you're gonna have a hard time, right?

You've gotta have a good partner who you're in sync with.

And when it comes to planning, when it comes to our general plan, that is absolutely way outdated, we haven't had a great partner who's wanted to push a general plan revision as a council in our administration.

They have put it off for a long time.

As a council, we've been begging for a general plan update for years.

We have been struggling under the current plan because it's so antiquated.

Finally, we have funded it.

It is a massive effort.

This year we are undergoing a huge revision across the entire city for a general plan update that is zoning across the board that makes sure that we respect and strike a balance in private property rights, but that we're putting amenities and building apartments and building developments where they belong; and that we're protecting assets like our neighborhoods, like our schools and like our parks, just like they belong.

But if we don't have something that's up to date for today, we're never gonna be able to pull it off.

We're always gonna be scrambling.

We've been in that position for far too long.

It's time we get out of that position.

I'm really proud that we finally got it off the ground and started, but it's gonna take a community-wide effort to make sure we pull it off.

And as we pull that off, I think we're gonna have a lot better time seeing growth that occurs in the right way, not in the haphazard way.

- Thank you.

Thank you.

In 2019, the Ogden City Council voted to join Utah Renewable Communities.

The goal of the program is to transition cities to 100% renewable energy sources by 2030.

Now there's been some talk about pulling out.

Where do you stand?

Mr. Nadolski.

- Thanks.

This has been a hugely complicated issue.

I'm just gonna say that, well, have you ever been at home, someone rings your doorbell, and they've got something that they wanna sell to you?

So we're gonna be kind.

We're gonna listen to the sales pitch.

After they tell you all about the product, you're gonna wanna know a few things.

At least I do.

You're gonna wanna know the cost.

You're gonna wanna know the terms of the contract, right?

Those are two things that we don't know yet about that program.

We've been waiting for those answers for about two years.

I'm happy that I supported moving forward to get those answers.

Frankly, we wouldn't have moved forward, we wouldn't be to this point, if it weren't for my vote to get us to this point.

It's really frustrating to know that we've got people knocking on doors in this community from Salt Lake bashing my action in this program specifically.

But what I'm doing is waiting for the cost.

I need to know how much that costs for our people.

I'm not gonna go all in on something until I know how it impacts us.

Once I know that, I can make an educated decision.

I don't think that's, quote, "wishy-washy."

I think that's responsible.

I think that's important.

I think it's critical before we commit all in.

I want clean air.

Everybody wants clean air.

Is that program the best way?

Maybe.

How much does it cost if we're gonna do it?

I still don't know.

We need to know that before we can commit.

- Mr. Knuth.

- This is probably the most important thing we'll talk about today, but not necessarily for those of us who are sitting in this room now, but for future generations of Ogdenites who want to breathe clean air, drink clean water, and enjoy the natural environment of Ogden that we have all known and loved and want to retain.

And getting back to the basics of good government is about preserving the character of our city.

And that includes our natural environment.

And quite frankly, we need leadership that matches the urgency of this moment.

Which is why I've been all in on the Community Renewable Energy Program from day one, because I understand the risks.

If we don't do something today to transition our residents off carbon and fossil fuels, and into renewable spaces, our kids are going to be the ones that suffer.

That's really important for us to remember today.

When we protect our environment today, we are serving the kids of tomorrow.

And this is not only the moral and ethical decision of our generation, to protect our environment, it's the financially responsible decision to make.

Because as severe weather continues to hit our community, we had an earthquake in 2022, we had a land hurricane in, sorry, 2020, our Ogden River was potentially going to peak over the banks and ruin homes, this is the issue that requires bold leadership to address our most pressing issue as a community.

And bringing that bold leadership is exactly what we'll do.

- Can I have a rebuttal?

- Rebuttal.

Yeah.

- Thank you.

We are already suffering.

It's not just our kids.

If we want to fix air quality right now, let's talk about tailpipes, let's talk about fugitive dust from the lake.

Let's use our excess water rights that we own as a city to put water in that lake, to cover that exposed lake bed, to keep that fugitive dust from making it to our lungs now.

That's what I wanna do.

And I've got 20-plus years' experience in natural resource management.

I have dedicated my career to this environment.

I know every bit of what the need is, including the Ogden River that protected our community- - Thank you.

- because I helped work on that project.

- I'd like to add one more thing.

- 30 seconds.

- It's great that you're talking about tailpipes, Mr. Nadolski, but we live in a city that does not have an idle-free ordinance, and we don't do any sort of tickets for people who idle in our city.

In fact, it is under this council that I've heard conversations around we should do our best to educate our residents.

Well, obviously the educational programs we're investing in aren't doing enough because we're still breathing air that's hurting our children, and we are still lacking the basic infrastructure to deliver an efficient water system here in our city.

- Moving on to the next question.

Over the last few years there have been heated conversations about the fates of both the Wildlife Rehabilitation Center and the Marshall White Center.

How would you manage the fault lines around beloved institutions in the community?

Mr. Knuth.

- This is my question.

You know, this is my 10-year career in public service, is in community engagement.

And some of the best changes I've seen in our community are in response to community-led organizations, like our Save the Marshall White Coalition that activated in 2021 to save the Marshall White Center after years of indecision and inaction from the council and the administration.

And you know what, I think we've seen the proliferation of groups like Save the Wildlife Rehabilitation Center of Northern Utah, Save the Union Station, save the Marshall White Center, and the likes, because there is a fundamental distrust in our local government.

And when we talk about getting back to the basics of good government, you guys, we're talking about inviting these people into the room before the conversation even hits the news.

And that is something we have not been doing.

We have been reactive to the problems in our community instead of proactive in reaching across the aisle and including the voices of those most impacted by the decisions that we are making as a city and as we would make as the mayor.

You know, I value the work of community engagement, and I understand that to be involved could be a full-time job.

If you wanted to watch every single activity that the Ogden city administration or council were doing, you might need to take up a part-time job and quit your full-time job.

That's how hard it is.

And so I like to meet our residents where they are and honor the work that they're willing to do.

Be it a 30-minute phone call with me to discuss what's important to them, like public safety or the Community Renewable Energy Program, or serving on a board and commission that's obviously dysfunctional in our city today.

- Mr. Nadolski.

- So I'd start by emphasizing being a partner.

I mentioned earlier sitting on the council with an administration that doesn't want to be a partner, especially on those two issues of the Marshall White Center and the Wildlife Rehab Center, so difficult to get them to move.

We can't move forward without having a partner, both in the council and in the administration, paired with partnerships in the community, period.

Why would we send a letter out of nowhere to the Wildlife Rehab Center after 12 years of experience as a partner and that's to kick them out?

Why would we do that to any of our partners?

What we ought to be doing is making sure that they have every opportunity to succeed.

And so does the Dinosaur Park too.

And so does the Ogden City.

That's what partners do for one another.

That's what I would do.

That's what we did when we put our foot down on the Marshall White Center.

The community was enraged.

The council was enraged with an action from the administration.

So as the chair of the city council, I put my foot down, told the mayor, we're not moving forward on any economic development projects until we have the Marshall White Center answered.

That's how we got momentum, finally.

But it shouldn't have to take that.

We ought to be able to do it by having a good partner.

- We're gonna move on now to our rapid-fire questions.

- Oh, okay.

- So these are yes/no questions.

And we can just go Mr. Nadolski, Mr. Knuth.

So these are yes/no questions, and we'll just kind of run through these.

And then after that we'll go on to closing statements.

Are you in favor of building potential new Winter Olympics infrastructure in and around Ogden?

- Yes.

- Yes.

- In August, Ogden officially launched its rapid transit bus system.

It's zero fare for three years.

Should the city continue to fund zero-fare public transit after three years?

- Yes.

- Yes.

- The Great Salt Lake is facing many challenges.

Would you support increasing water rates to incentivize water conservation?

- Yes.

- Yes.

- Are you in support of increasing property taxes to pay for various city initiatives?

- No.

- No.

(audience laughs) - So hard.

(panelists and audience laugh) - No.

- Let's move on to closing statements.

Each candidate will have two minutes for closing statements, and as decided earlier by a coin flip, Mr. Nadolski will go first, and Mr. Knuth will go second.

So Mr. Nadolski.

- Thank you.

And again, thank you, everyone, for being here.

It's been an amazing night.

It's been an amazing journey getting to tonight.

We have a fundamental choice to make in this election.

I think you have two very different individuals who have different backgrounds and experiences, but I want to make sure that we understand that experience matters.

I want to use my experience to help us.

I have had a career that I have loved.

It has been an incredible challenge.

I've been put in incredibly difficult situations.

There was a time where my boss told me, "I need you to go out, and I need you to resolve a range war.

There are people out there that are threatening violence, and I need you to get out there and fix it."

And I said, "Director, what is success?"

And he said, "Success is no one gets shot."

And that is a true story.

That is a very serious issue.

I'm happy to say that no one got shot.

But I have a history of resolving conflict.

I have a history of working in public policy, a history of working with the legislature, a history of overseeing and supervising big budgets and big teams of people.

I have a history in the city of learning how municipal governance works.

It's really important that we have people that know how to make decisions, that know how to solve problems, that know that these are serious issues, and know how to bring serious solutions to the table.

The things that we've talked about, if they were easy, they'd already be done.

They are incredibly complicated.

Like I said, there's nothing basic about it.

So let's get to work.

Let's get to work together.

I'm asking for your vote because I want to serve.

I love my career.

I don't need this job, but I want this job because I love this town.

Love this town with me.

Serve this town with me.

Go to my website, Ben the number four ogden.com to learn more.

Again, thank you so much for tonight.

- Mr. Knuth.

- Awesome.

You know, I wanna close tonight with how I opened, which is a heartfelt thank you to our host, Caroline, and KUER, PBS, and of course, Weber State.

It feels good to be home is what I'll say.

You know, people like me aren't meant to run for office.

I've said that a few times now.

But I wanna share with you all that Ogden City is the city that built me, and I mean that.

And I've learned it from some of the most incredible, hardworking, diligent people in town.

You know, my grandfather was a gandy dancer at the Union Station.

I don't really know what that means other than he stood in the grand foyer and he greeted people.

It was his very first job at 16 years old.

He worked hard to get where he was, brick by brick, as a brick layer in his career.

I shared with you all about my mom, who worked two jobs to make ends meet.

She showed me through every hour she was away from home how to work hard in support of your family.

I did the same thing at 12 years old, and I learned in Ogden, right here in our community, from some of the best how to work hard and how to get things done.

You know, when we talk about getting back to the basics, it includes expanding our efforts in community-oriented policing, reducing the call volume, enhancing officer pay to keep you safe.

When we talk about getting back to the basics of good government, and we talk about preserving the character of our city, it means going all in on the Community Renewable Energy Program because we know that that is the future of our city.

And when we talk about getting back to the basics of good government and putting you at the center, it's about creating connections with our neighbors, by establishing a 411 line so that we can respond to your needs as a city quickly.

Now, I want to earn your trust and respect, but I also want to earn your vote come November 21st.

So visit my website, taylorforogden.com, sign up to volunteer, host a yard sign, and thank you all for being here.

I really, really appreciate it.

- That concludes the Ogden mayoral debate.

Thanks to both of our candidates for your participation and for your desire to serve.

And thank you to the journalists, political analysts, Ogden residents, and students who contributed to our questions.

The election for Ogden mayor will take place on November 21st.

Mail-in ballots will go out the week of October 31st.

You can also vote in-person on election day.

If you have questions about your voter registration or receiving your ballot, contact the Weber County Clerk's Office.

We appreciate our host, the Walker Institute of Politics & Public Service at Weber State University, our in-person audience, and those of you watching at home.

For KUER and PBS Utah, I'm Caroline Ballard.

Thank you and goodnight.

- Thanks.

- Thank you, Ben.

Thanks, Caroline.

I really appreciate it.

- [Ben] Thank you.

(audience applauds) - [Taylor] Can I leave this on right there?

- Yeah, you can.

- And are we throwing in our mic?