>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.

>> THE BLOCKADE IS GENIUS, OKAY?

THE BLOCKADE IS 100% FOOLPROOF.

>> TRUMP DIGS IN FOR AN EXTENDED BLOCKADE ON IRAN AS THE UNITED ARAB EMIRATES SHOCKED THE WORLD BY QUITTING OPEC.

I LOOK AT BIG CHANGES IN THE PERSIAN GULF WITH THE IRANIAN MIDDLE EAST EXPERT, HASSAN AHMADIAN ON PERETS >>> THEN -- >> NEW ENGLAND, TIME IS FINITE HAS BEEN A GREAT MOTIVATOR IN MY LIFE.

>> KARA SWISHER WANTS TO LIVE FOREVER BUT IS THAT REALLY A GOOD IDEA?

THE AWARD-WINNING JOURNALISTS CUT THROUGH THE HYPE OF ANTIAGING.

>>> AND -- >> THE WAR IS BEING FRAMED AS A HOLY WAR, A RELIGIOUS WAR, AND THAT IS THE WRONG FRAME.

>> HOW THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION INVOKES CHRISTIANITY TO JUSTIFY ITS WAR ON IRAN.

MICHEL MARTIN SPEAKS WITH FORMER BUSH SPEECHWRITER, PETER WAINER.

♪ >> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR, THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM, THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION, THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, MONIQUE SCHOEN WARSHAW, KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS, LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU!

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I AM CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

AT THE HEART OF THE CURRENT STANDOFF IN IRAN IS THE CLASSIC QUESTION, WHO HAS THE WATCH AND WHO HAS THE TIME?

DONALD TRUMP BETS THAT EXTENDING HIS BLOCKADE WILL BREAK IRAN'S ECONOMY AND DRIVE NEGOTIATORS BACK TO THE TABLE, WHILE IRAN'S LEADERS BELIEVE CHOKING OFF THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ GIVES THEM THE ULTIMATE LEVERAGE OVER THE GLOBAL ECONOMY, AS GAS AND OIL PRICES SPIKED, AND TRUMP'S APPROVAL RATINGS HIT NEW LOWS.

>>> MEANWHILE, THREATS OF RENEWED MILITARY AGGRESSION ARE GROWING AS A SENIOR IRANIAN MILITARY OFFICIAL IS TAUNTING THE WHITE HOUSE SAYING, "WE HAVE ALREADY SEEN WHAT HAPPENED TO YOUR BASES IN THE REGION. "

IN FACT, AMERICA'S VULNERABILITY IN THE GULF WAS HIGHLIGHTED IN CONGRESS ON WEDNESDAY AS DEMOCRATIC REPRESENTATIVE PATRICK LINE GRILLED DEFENSE SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH ABOUT THE SIX U.S.

SOLDIERS KILLED IN AN IRANIAN DRONE ATTACK AT THE PORT IN KUWAIT.

>> BEFORE THE WAR STARTED, THERE WAS CLEAR INTELLIGENCE THAT SHOULD WAVA WAS HIGH ON IRAN'S LIST, IT SAID THE SITE WAS INDEFENSIBLE FROM AERIAL ATTACK AND SHOULD NOT BE USED.

AND YET, YOU SENT OUR SOLDIERS FROM THE 103rd SUSTAINMENT COMMAND THERE, ANYWAY.

IS THAT TRUE OR FALSE?

TRUE OR FALSE?

STRAIGHTFORWARD QUESTION.

>> ARE YOU GOING TO GIVE ME A CHANCE TO ANSWER, OR JUST PLAY GOTCHA.

>> DID YOU SEND THEM THERE, OR NOT?

>> I ALWAYS -- WE TOOK PROACTIVE MEASURES.

>> I WILL TAKE THAT AS A YES AND I YIELD MY TIME.

>> TO MAXIMIZE THE -- >> THERE ARE ALSO REPORTS UNITED STATES MAY BE PREPARING FOR MORE STRONG STRIKES ON IRAN AND WHAT ABOUT THE GULF STATES?

WITH THE UAE QUITTING OPEC, IS THERE ANOTHER ORDER TAKING SHAPE IN THE PERSIAN GULF?

JOINING ME FROM DOE HOFFER AN IRANIAN PERSPECTIVE ON THESE CRITICAL QUESTIONS, IS HASSAN AHMADIAN.

HE IS AT THE UNIVERSAL STUDIES OF TEHRAN.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

CAN I SAY -- >> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> YES, WELCOME.

CAN I START BY ASKING YOU TO TRY TO TELL ME WHAT IS HAPPENING FROM THE IRANIAN GOVERNMENT PERSPECTIVE?

BECAUSE I KNOW YOU ARE VERY AWARE AND PLUGGED IN.

SO, TODAY, THE NEW SUPREME LEADER PUT OUT A STATEMENT TALKING ABOUT PERSIAN GULF DAY, SAYING, IRAN'S ENEMIES WILL END UP AT THE BOTTOM OF THE PERSIAN GULF, DO YOU THINK THAT IRAN IS PREPARING, BELIEVES THERE IS ANOTHER ROUND OF ACTIVE WAR COMING?

>> AS WE SPEAK, CHRISTIANE, THERE IS A THIRD WAR WAGED ON THE COUNTRY, IN THE SIEGE.

IT IS AN ACT OF WAR AND POST ON THE COUNTRY.

THE IRANIANS WANTED NEGOTIATIONS THREE TIMES AND AFTERWARDS WERE FACED WITH ACTS OF WAR.

ONE BACK IN JUNE, THE SECOND, JUST THE LATEST ONE AND NOW A SIEGE ON THE COUNTRY.

SO, WE HEAR THE IRANIANS DIGGING IN, SAYING, "WE WILL NOT SUCCUMB TO U.S.

DEMANDS AND PRESSURE."

AND THAT WAS EXPECTED.

THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT RETALIATION, IF THE UNITED STATES IS TO CONTINUE HARASSING IRANIAN SHIPMENTS IN THE GULF OF OMAN WHICH IT DID AGAINST TWO SHIPS.

SO, WE HEAR THIS DEFIANCE, THAT IF THERE IS ANOTHER CONFLICT, THE IRANIANS WILL BASICALLY BE OF RETALIATING KIND.

I THINK WHAT IS CONCERNING IS THAT THE UNITED STATES BELIEVES THAT IRAN CAN STILL SUCCUMB TO ITS DEMANDS.

THE IRANIANS OFFERED THEIR PROPOSAL BEFORE THE WAR, A MEDIATOR SAID THAT WAS VERY RATIONAL OF A PROPOSAL.

BUT, YET, THEY WERE ATTACKED.

NOW, THE LOGIC, HERE, IS THE MORE YOU SHOW APPEASEMENT TO THIS ADMINISTRATION, THE MORE YOU WILL FACE WAR OR A BAD CONSEQUENCES ON THE PART OF THE UNITED STATES.

AND SO, DEFIANCE IS THE RESPONSE THAT IS STAND UP TO PRESSURE AND PUSH BACK AGAINST IT, WHICH THEY DID BACK IN THE WAR, IN THE 40 DAYS WAR, AND NOW THEY ARE DOING IT IN THE SIEGE.

>> SO, WHAT YOU TERM A "SIEGE" IS THE U.S.

BLOCKADE OF THE IRANIAN PORTS.

AND THE PRESIDENT HAS DOUBLED DOWN, IT APPEARS HE IS TELLING HIS AIDES AND POSTING THAT HE IS PREPARED FOR A "LONG BLOCKADE."

SO, AS I POSED IN THE INTRODUCTION, YOU KNOW, IT IS A QUESTION OF A TEST OF WILLS, A TEST OF TIME, AND WHO CAN TAKE THE MOST PAIN.

DO YOU THINK IRAN, AT THIS POINT WITH ITS WEAKENED ECONOMY, AND AN ECONOMY THAT IS GETTING WEAKER EVERY DAY, CAN IT LAST A LONG U.S.

SIEGE?

>> I THINK, TIME IS DEFINITELY WORKING TO IRAN'S FAVOR.

BACK IN THE FIRST TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, THE IRANIAN OIL EXPORTS WENT DOWN TO $300,000 PER DAY, FOR ROUGHLY A YEAR.

AND STILL, THE IRANIANS MANAGED TO KEEP THEIR ECONOMY ABOVE WATER.

THEIR EXPORTS NOWADAYS IS WAY BEYOND THAT LEVEL, AND I THINK EVEN THE SIEGE COULDN'T STOP THEM EXPORTING MORE THAN THAT.

AND SO, OF COURSE, THE PRESSURE ON IRAN IS IMMENSE AND IT IS INCREASING, BUT IT IS STILL WAY BELOW WHAT WAS IN THE FIRST TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, BECAUSE THE IRANIANS LEARNED IT THE HARD WAY, HOW TO WORK UNDER THOSE SANCTIONS, AND U.S., YOU KNOW, ECONOMIC PRESSURE ON THE COUNTRY.

ON THE OTHER HAND, THERE IS THE MUNITION SHORTAGE, THE DEFENSES ON THE PART OF THE UNITED STATES AND ISRAEL, THERE IS THE MIDTERM THAT IS APPROACHING THAT IS PUTTING PRESSURE ON THE U.S.

ADMINISTRATION, AND THERE ARE THE MARKETS THAT ARE HURTING AS A RESULT OF THE SIEGE, AND OF COURSE, THE WAR THAT CAME WITH THE SITUATION WE SEE IN THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ.

SO, THERE IS A SENSE, VERY STRONG SENSE IN IRAN, THAT TIME IS WORKING TO THEIR FAVOR.

BUT, AT THE SAME TIME, I SUSPECT THEY WOULD NOT SIT ON THEIR HANDS WHILE THE UNITED STATES HARASSES THEIR SHIPMENTS.

TWO DAYS AGO, BEFORE THE SUPREME LEADER TALKED, THE MOJTABA BASE ISSUED AN ANNOUNCEMENT, SAYING THAT THEY WILL RETALIATE.

THIS IS THE BODY THAT IS RESPONSIBLE FOR IRAN'S WAR EFFORTS, WHICH MEANS IT WAS GIVEN THE DIRECTIONS, THAT THE DECISION HAS BEEN MADE, THAT IT HAS TO RETALIATE AGAINST THE U.S.

PROVOCATIONS AGAINST IRAN'S SHIPMENTS, WHICH I THINK WILL LEAD TO ESCALATION.

WHETHER OR NOT THAT WOULD WIDEN THE WAR LIKE THE ONE WE SAW OF THE PAST, YOU KNOW, 50 DAYS, THAT IS -- WE SHOULD WAIT AND SEE.

BUT, I THINK ESCALATION IS LOOMING LARGE, AS WE SPEAK.

>> WHAT KIND OF RETALIATION?

>> WELL, I THINK MOJTABA KHAMENEI WAS CLEAR THAT IF ANOTHER ATTACK ON IRAN'S SHIPMENTS -- WE SAW ONE OF THEM HAPPENING, THE IRANIANS RETALIATED IN THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ, BUT NOW THEY ARE TARGETING U.S.

FORCES THAT ARE HARASSING IRAN'S SHIPMENTS.

I THINK THAT IS VERY MUCH IN THE PICTURE NOW, WITH THIS ANNOUNCEMENT.

AND I THINK WE ARE BOUND TO SEE ESCALATION, IF THERE ARE SEIZURE OF IRANIAN SHIPS, OR HARASSMENT OF IRANIAN SHIPS, ACCORDING TO IRANIAN OFFICIALS.

>> LET ME JUST DRILL DOWN A LITTLE BIT ON THE INTERNAL SITUATION, ECONOMICALLY.

CLEARLY, THE UNITED STATES, ISRAEL, IS BETTING ON SQUEEZING THE IRANIAN GOVERNMENT, SQUEEZING THE PEOPLE, AND, YOU KNOW, THE PAIN THRESHOLD, REGARDING, YOU KNOW, POVERTY, THE SHORTAGE OF FOOD AND OTHER THINGS.

LOOK, INFLATION IS NOW AT 50%.

IT WAS 40% BEFORE THE WAR.

THE CURRENCY HAS HIT A RECORD LOW THIS WEEK.

PUBLIC PANIC OVER DECLINING PURCHASING POWER.

AT LEAST 191,000 WORKERS HAVE APPLIED FOR UNEMPLOYMENT SUPPORT SINCE THE WAR.

HOW SUSTAINABLE IS THIS WARTIME ECONOMY?

>> WELL, ECONOMICALLY, AS I SAID, IRAN IS UNDER PRESSURE, THE IRANIANS ARE UNDER PRESSURE, AND BASICALLY, THE SIEGE HAS A COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT, TOO, IT IS WORKING, BUT VERY SLOWLY.

WE HAVE MONTHS, AND MONTHS, BEFORE SEEING ITS EFFECT KICK IN, AND THAT IS IF IRAN DOESN'T TAKE ACTION AND ESCALATE AGAINST U.S.

SIEGE.

I THINK, ESCALATION IS IRAN'S PREFERRED OPTION, IF THE SIEGE IS TO BE REALLY IMPLEMENTED AGAINST IRAN.

NOW, ECONOMICALLY, THE IRANIANS ARE MANAGING THE ECONOMY FOR THE PAST DECADE UNDER MAXIMUM PRESSURE.

AND, OF COURSE, THAT CREATED MANY HARDSHIPS IN THE COUNTRY, AND NOW WE HAVE DAMAGED INFRASTRUCTURE AS A RESULT OF THE WAR.

THEY ARE IN NEED OF THE OPENING OF THE ECONOMY, BUT HAVING SAID THAT, I BELIEVE THE RALLY AROUND THE FLAG THAT WE SAW IN THE WAR IS STILL VERY MUCH SENSED WITH THE UNITED STATES PUSHING HARDER AND HARDER AGAINST IRAN, AND I THINK THAT'S -- THAT SHOULDN'T BE SIDELINED IN ANY DISCUSSION.

I THINK THAT'S WHAT'S DRIVING PEOPLE, STILL IN THE STREETS DEMONSTRATING AGAINST U.S.

AGGRESSION, AS IT IS BEING CALLED IN IRAN, AND U.S.

PROVOCATIONS AGAINST THE COUNTRY.

YOU SEE, THAT IS VERY MUCH HELPING THE SYSTEM IN IRAN AND ITS PUSHBACK AGAINST THE UNITED STATES.

NOW, MOVING FORWARD, MAYBE MONTHS, HARDSHIPS WILL GROW, AND MANY THINGS CAN CHANGE.

BUT, AT THIS POINT, I THINK TIME IS REALLY NOT OF CONCERN FOR MONTHS TO COME, FOR IRAN.

>> OKAY.

>> NOW, OF COURSE, THE HARDSHIPS ARE THERE, THEY WERE THERE BEFORE THE WAR, AND THEY WILL CONTINUE TO BE THERE, IF THERE IS NO DEAL WITH THE UNITED STATES AND WITH THE WEST, IN GENERAL.

BUT, GENERALLY, I THINK THE IRANIANS HAVE SHOWN THAT THEY CAN LIVE WITH SANCTIONS, THOUGH HARDSHIPS ARE FIGHTING THEIR DAILY LIVES.

>> WELL, LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT THAT, BECAUSE CLEARLY, PEOPLE ARE UNDER HUGE HARDSHIP AND HAS BEEN FOR MANY, MANY YEARS.

YOU SAY -- YOU TALK ABOUT RALLYING AROUND THE FLAG NOW, BUT YOU SAY, THINGS MAY CHANGE IN THE FUTURE, SO I'M TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT CHANGES YOU THINK.

AS YOU KNOW, BEFORE THE WAR STARTED IN JANUARY, THERE WAS SUCH ECONOMIC DISTRESS, THAT THAT CAUSED THE PROCESS, AND THEN THEY WERE BRUTALLY PUT DOWN.

DO YOU THINK THE LEADERSHIP IS AT ALL CONCERNED, OR THINGS AT ALL, ABOUT WHETHER THE PEOPLE WILL AGAIN -- LET'S SAY, AFTER THE WAR, OR AT SOME POINT -- FEEL SO MUCH PAIN AGAIN THAT THEY WILL RISE UP, AND AS WE SAID BEFORE, GET RID OF THE GOVERNMENT OF THEIRS?

>> WELL, EVERYONE IS CONCERNED WITH THE ECONOMICS OF THE COUNTRY.

DAILY LIVES ARE UNDER PRESSURE, AND, YOU KNOW, THE DEMONSTRATIONS THAT HAPPENED BACK IN JANUARY, BEFORE TURNING VIOLENT FOR 10 DAYS, THEY WERE BASICALLY CALLING FOR ECONOMIC CHANGES IN THE COUNTRY, THE POLICIES, AND CRITICIZING MISMANAGEMENT AND CORRUPTION, ET CETERA.

I THINK, IN THE FUTURE, WE MIGHT SEE THAT.

BUT, ALSO, MUCH NEWS CAME IN.

JUST TWO WEEKS AGO, PRESIDENT TRUMP WAS SAYING, WE SENT ARMS INTO IRAN IN JANUARY.

I THINK THAT IS VERY MUCH CIRCULATED IN IRAN, AND I THINK THERE IS NO -- YOU KNOW, THE MEK ALSO SAID THAT MORE THAN 100 OF ITS OPERATIVES WERE KILLED IN THE STREETS.

SO, IT IS -- YOU KNOW, ECONOMIC HARDSHIP, PEOPLE FED UP WITH THEIR ECONOMICS INTERNALLY, BUT ALSO, VIEWS BY EXTERNAL POWERS TO INSTIGATE THE UNREST THAT IS ARMED AND THAT IS VERY WELL KNOWN IN IRAN.

I THINK, MANY PEOPLE WHO WOULD SEE THEMSELVES PROTESTING FOR THEIR ECONOMIC SITUATION, WOULD REFRAIN, FOR THE TIME BEING, MOVING FORWARD, OF COURSE, IF THERE IS MORE HARDSHIPS ON THE ECONOMY AND THEIR DAILY LIVES.

THEY MIGHT ALSO DEMONSTRATE -- FOR THE BETTERMENT OF THEIR ECONOMIC SITUATION.

BUT, I DON'T SEE THAT HAPPENING ANYTIME SOON.

>> OKAY.

>> AND TAKING INTO ACCOUNT THAT WE SAW, JUST RECENTLY, A WAR ON THE COUNTRY THAT ADDED TO THEIR HARDSHIPS IN THE COUNTRY POINT YOU OKAY, LET ME -- OBVIOUSLY, THE MEK IS THE ANTIREGIME GROUP, AND THEY ARE KNOWN TO HAVE DONE ALL SORTS OF THINGS LIKE THAT.

WHAT I'M TRYING TO ASK YOU NEXT, IS, WITH ALL OF THIS, WHAT DOES THAT MEAN FOR DOHA WHERE YOU ARE RIGHT NOW?

QATAR?

FOR THE RESHAPING OF THE GCC ORDER?

JUST YESTERDAY, WITH UAE PULLING OUT OF OPEC, THAT IS A REAL SHOT ACROSS THE BOW.

WHAT DO YOU SEE HAPPENING IN THE GCC?

>> WELL, I THINK TWO SHOTS HIT THE GCC JUST RECENTLY, ONE IS THE U.S.-ISRAELI WAR ON IRAN WITH IRAN RETALIATING ON U.S.

BASES, WHICH BASICALLY BROUGHT DOWN THE LOGIC OF HAVING BASES AS A SECURITY UMBRELLA IN THIS REGION.

THEY ACTUALLY TURNED THEM INTO MAGNETS FOR IRANIAN ATTACKS ON U.S.

BASES.

THE SECOND SHOCK JUST COME YESTERDAY.

I THINK IT IS BASED ON THE GEOPOLITICS THAT ARE SHIFTING IN THE REGION.

WE SAW BEFORE THE WAR ON IRAN, UAE AND SAUDI ARABIA GOING HEAD TO HEAD IN MULTIPLE FRONTS, YEMEN, SUDAN, LIBYA, SYRIA.

OBVIOUSLY, THAT RIVALRY HAS A LOT TO DO WITH THE UAE WITHDRAWING FROM OPEC.

THAT MEANS THAT UAE IS DRIFTING, STEP-BY-STEP, AWAY FROM THE CONSENSUAL MECHANISMS THAT WERE SHALLOW, BUT THEY WERE WORKING IN THE REGION.

OPEC IS ONE OF THE OR OLDEST ORGANIZATIONS THAT IRAN AND UAE, AND MANY COUNTRIES IN THE REGION WERE A MEMBER OF.

NOW, WITH UAE WITHDRAWING, THEY ARE SAYING IT IS THEIR SOVEREIGN RIGHT.

OF COURSE, IT IS, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, IT ADDS TO THE RIVALRY THAT ALREADY EXISTS, AND I THINK IT COMPLICATES THINGS NOT ONLY WITHIN THE GCC, BUT WITHIN THE REGION, GENERALLY, BECAUSE UAE IS NOW VIEWED IN IRAN, IN SAUDI ARABIA, AROUND THE REGION, IT IS ALLYING ITSELF MORE AND MORE WITH ISRAEL AND -- YOU KNOW, ISRAEL JUST ATTACKED IRAN.

SO, THIS COMPLICATION, THESE KINDS OF COMPLICATIONS, ARE TO OVERSHADOW MUCH OF THE POLITICS AND GEOPOLITICS IN THE REGION, MOVING FORWARD.

>> LAST QUESTION, ABOUT THE LEADERSHIP IN IRAN.

PRESIDENT TRUMP KEEPS SAYING THAT IT IS FRAGMENTED AND HE IS WAITING FOR A COHERENT, YOU KNOW, ANSWER TO HIS PEACE PROPOSALS.

SO, CAN YOU JUST TELL ME, YOU KNOW, WHO IS IN CHARGE?

AND IS, ACTUALLY, THE IRGC, THE FOLLOWERS OF MOJTABA KHAMENEI, IS THAT WHERE THE SIEGE OF POWER IS RIGHT NOW?

IN OTHER WORDS, IS IT MORE DIRECTLY CONSOLIDATING IN THE MILITARY SIDE OF THE IRANIAN GOVERNMENT?

>> I AM NOT SURE THAT IS THE CASE.

I THINK THERE ARE TWO SIDES TO THIS STORY THAT KEEPS COMING UP IN THE UNITED STATES.

ONE IS, THAT I DON'T THINK IT IS NEWS, I THINK IT IS AN AGENDA.

SO, DIVISION WITHIN THE IRANIAN SYSTEM.

THE NAME OF THE GAME, STOPPING THE CONSOLIDATION OF THE POWER IN THE HANDS OF THE NEW LEADERSHIP IN IRAN.

THAT IS, I THINK, A GOAL THAT COMES UP WITH ALL THESE TALKING POINTS, BUT WITHIN IRAN, WE DON'T SEE INDICATIONS TO THAT DIRECTION.

SO FAR, WE HAVEN'T SEEN ANYONE RESIGN, OR PUSHED OUT OF POWER, OR BASICALLY SIDELINED.

THERE ARE NO INDICATIONS.

BUT, WHEN IT COMES TO WHO IS RUNNING IRAN, I THINK IT IS -- IT GOES WITHOUT SAYING THAT IT IS THE SUPREME NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL.

THAT IS THE HIGHEST AUTHORITY ON DECISION-MAKING WITHIN IRAN.

THE SUPREME LEADER, OF COURSE, HAS THE VETO POWER OVER ITS DECISIONS.

NOW, WHETHER OR NOT HE GOES AGAINST ITS DECISIONS, OR NOT, I MEAN, IT DEPENDS ON THE CIRCUMSTANCE AND THE ISSUE THAT IS DISCUSSED WITHIN THAT BODY.

OF COURSE, THE IRGC, THE FOREIGN MINISTRY, THE PRESIDENT, ALL, YOU KNOW, 13 MEMBERS ARE PART OF THE SYSTEM IN IRAN, ALL SIDES OF IT, AND THEY BASICALLY DISCUSS AND TAKE THE DECISION.

IN TIMES OF WAR, OF COURSE, LOUDER VOICES OF MILITARY, IRGC, COULD BE HEARD IN THE COUNTRY.

I THINK THAT IT IS CAUSING A CALL FOR THE ASSUMPTION THAT IRGC IS RUNNING THE COUNTRY, BUT I DON'T SEE THAT HAPPENING, AT LEAST I DIDN'T SEE MUCH INDICATIONS TO THAT DIRECTION.

THE IRGC HAS BEEN WORKING WITHIN THE FRAMEWORK THAT WAS ANNOUNCED BY THE SUPREME NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL, RIGHT AFTER THE CEASE-FIRE, THE THREE PAGE DOCUMENT THAT BASICALLY TALKED ABOUT HOW THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ WOULD BE WORKED ON AND HOW IRAN WOULD POSITION ITSELF, INTERNALLY, AND EXTERNALLY, AGAINST FUTURE AGGRESSIONS.

THERE ARE, OF COURSE, SPECULATIONS THAT THE UNITED STATES IS ACCUMULATING POWER, AND AMMUNITION, AND FORCES, TO MAYBE ATTACK IRAN ONCE MORE.

ISRAELIS, JUST RECENTLY, ISRAELI LEADERS ARE TALKING ABOUT RESUMPTION OF CONFLICT, OR POSSIBILITY OF RESUMPTION OF CONFLICT WITH IRAN, SO THEY ARE GETTING READY TO DO THAT.

BUT, THAT ALL IS BEING WORKED ON WITHIN IRAN BASED ON THE THREE PAGE DOCUMENT ISSUED BY THE SUPREME NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL.

I DIDN'T SEE THE DIVERGENCE, THERE APPEARED >> RIGHT.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH, HASSAN AHMADIAN.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US PER PROFESSOR AT THE UNIVERSITY OF TEHRAN, FOR THE MOMENT IN DOHA, QATAR.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> WOULD YOU WANT TO LIVE FOREVER?

IT SEEMS PLENTY OF ALTERNATE -- ULTRARICH TECH TITANS DO AND THEY ARE USING THEIR MONEY AND INFLUENCE TO SHAPE THE RACE TO LIVE LONGER.

KARA SWISHER, THE ACCLAIMED TECH AND BUSINESS JOURNALIST SAYS THE SILICON VALLEY PROS ARE DOING IT WRONG.

IN A NEW SERIES ON CNN, SHE CUTS THROUGH THE HYPE TO SEPARATE REAL SCIENCE FROM WISHFUL THINKING.

HERE IS A CLIP.

>> YOU COMFY?

>> I FEEL LIKE I AM IN AN AIR FRYER, BUT, SURE.

>> HOW OFTEN DO YOU GO IN HERE?

>> DAILY.

>> TECH PROS ARE DESPERATE TO LIVE LONGER.

>> THERE IS A LOT OF MONEY IN THIS.

>> KARA, THIS LONGEVITY TREND, HASN'T THE EARTH SUFFERED ENOUGH, SHOULDN'T WE JUST DIE?

>> THE SERIES IS CALLED "KERA SWISHER WANTS TO LIVE FOREVER."

AND SHE JOINS ME NOW FROM NEW YORK.

KARA, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> HI, CHRISTIANE.

HOW ARE YOU DOING?

>> SO, I'M SURPRISED, HAVING SEEN SOME OF THE EPISODES -- AND WE WILL SEE MORE -- THAT IT SAYS, "KERA SWISHER WANTS TO LIVE FOREVER," BECAUSE YOU DON'T COME ACROSS AS WANTING TO LIVE FOREVER, IN FACT YOU ARE POKING HOLES IN ALL OF THESE BROS THAT WANT TO LIVE FOREVER.

>> YOU GOT THE JOKE!

>> IT IS A JOKE!

>> I WANT TO LIVE LONGER, BETTER, IS SORT OF WHAT IT IS AND COLLAPSE THE HEALTH SPAN, LIFESPAN PROBLEM.

A LOT OF PEOPLE LIVE LONGER THAN THEY ARE HEALTHY AND ACTUALLY, IN THE UNITED STATES THE GAP IS ENORMOUS, MORE SO THAN ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE WORLD.

I WANTED TO SEE -- I WAS STRUCK BY ALL THE CHARLATANS THEM ONLINE RIGHT NOW ABOUT -- AND EVERYTHING ELSE, BY THE WAY -- AND THE REAL SCIENCE THAT IS DEVELOPING THAT COULD REALLY HELP US LIVE HEALTHIER, LONGER LIVES.

SO, I JUST WANTED TO SHOW BOTH THINGS AND OF CURSE IT IS BEING SPURRED BY TECH BILLIONAIRES THAT ARE SO NARCISSISTIC, THEY JUST WANT TO PRESERVE THEIR GODLIKE BODIES AS LONG AS THEY CAN.

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE INTERVIEWED SO MANY OF THEM, AND AS YOU SAY, YOU INTERVIEWED BRIAN JOHNSON, WHO IS A TECH ENTREPRENEUR.

I AM GOING TO PUT A CLIP OF YOUR CONVERSATION WITH HIM, THEN WE WILL GET INTO IT.

>> SURE.

>> THE PRIMARY THING THAT WE WANT TO DO IS SAY, LIKE, "LET'S JUST NOT DIE."

>> SO, WHY IS IT PHRASE LIKE THAT?

YOU PHRASED IT, AND IT IS MARKETED, QUITE MARKETED, "I WANT TO LIVE FOREVER."

>> WELCOME I DON'T.

I SPECIFICALLY DO NOT SAY, "I WANT TO LIVE FOREVER."

>> BUT, YOU SAY, YOU DON'T WANT TO DIE.

>> "DON'T DIE" IS VERY DIFFERENT.

>> EXPLAINED THAT?

>> "DON'T DIE" IS NOT ABOUT ME, IT'S ABOUT A GROUP, ABOUT THE SPECIES.

IT'S A SAPIENS ENDEAVOR.

>> SO, YOU ARE IN IT FOR HUMANITY, NOT SELF- AGGRANDIZEMENT?

>> WHAT ELSE IS THERE TO PLAY FOR?

>> DID YOU BUY THAT, THAT IT WASN'T FOR HIM TO -- >> NO.

>> OKAY, WHAT DO YOU THINK IS MOTIVATING THEM?

>> WELL, BECAUSE -- WELL, I THINK HE HAS AN EMPTY HOLE IN HIS SOUL, I GUESS, LIKE A LOT OF THEM.

THEY FEEL LIKE THAT THEY HAVE ALL THE MONEY IN THE WORLD, BUT THE ONE THING THAT HAPPENS, IS BIOLOGY IS UNDEFEATED.

SO, THEY ARE THINKING IF THEY CAN HACK EVERYTHING ELSE -- WHICH, THEY HAVE FOR THE MOST PART -- THEY CAN HACK THIS.

SO, THEY REALLY CAN'T, BUT THE STRUGGLE TO DO IT IS REALLY BOTH POIGNANT AND REALLY, LIKE, PATHETIC, BECAUSE IF THEY SPENT THE MONEY ON HELPING POVERTY, LIKE McKENZIE SCOTT DOES, OR SPEND THE MONEY ON GOLD STANDARD TESTING OF THESE THINGS, AND IN BRIAN'S CASE, I HAPPEN TO LIKE HIM, AND I KNEW HIM IN BEFORE TIMES.

HE SPENDS $2 MILLION A YEAR -- HE IS 45, 46 -- TO LOOK 45 OR 46, ESSENTIALLY, BUT WITH BETTER PECKS, I GUESS.

WELL DONE.

ANYBODY CAN DO THAT, REALLY.

AND SO, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT STRUCK ME IS, BECAUSE THEY ARE TESTING ON JUST HIM, IT DOESN'T HELP HUMANITY IN ANY WAY.

IT HELPS BRIAN JOHNSON.

AND SO, YOU KNOW, THROUGH THESE -- AND HE HAS THIS THING, "IF HE PUTS IT OUT, PEOPLE CAN COPY HIM," BUT PEOPLE CAN'T COPY HIM BECAUSE HE IS SPENDING $2 MILLION A YEAR, SO MY WHOLE THING WAS, WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS IF YOU REALLY WANT TO HELP HUMANITY?

HE CALLS HIMSELF A "REJUVENATION ATHLETE."

IT'S A TERM I DON'T UNDERSTAND.

>> EVERY TIME YOU TURN AROUND, THERE IS A NEW NAME FOR WHAT IS HAPPENING.

A "REJUVENATION ATHLETE."

I LIKE THAT.

LISTEN, I WANT TO TOUCH ON SOMETHING YOU STARTED TO RAISE WHEN WE WERE TALKING, YOU TALKED ABOUT, A SICK SOCIETY, OR A HEALTHY SOCIETY, OR WHATEVER, YOU TALKED ABOUT THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AMERICA AND THE UK.

SO, I HAVE, IN PREPARATION FOR YOU, PULLED THIS COLUMN FROM SIMON COOPER OF THE FT AND HE NOTED THAT IN 2024, LIFE EXPECTANCY REACHED 73.3 YEARS, WHICH IS A NEW RECORD, BUT THE DISCREPANCY IS WORSE IN THE U.S., WHERE THE AVERAGE PERSON IN 2019 LIVED WITH A DISABILITY, FOR INSTANCE, YOU KNOW, 12.4 YEARS OF SICKNESS BEFORE DEATH.

THAT IS HUGE.

AND THEN, ALL OF THIS LIFE EXTENDING, WHILE THINGS THAT TRADITIONALLY GIVE YOU THE WILL TO LIVE, AND THE JOY OF LIFE, AND NATURAL SORT OF BOOSTERS, ARE ALL SORT OF DECLINING.

>> SURE.

>> AND I THINK YOU TOUCHED ON THAT IN THE PIECE, AS WELL.

>> YEAH.

YEAH, I THINK IT'S REALLY INTERESTING.

THE UNITED STATES SPENDS $15,000 PER CAPITAL ON HEALTHCARE, COMPARED TO THE UK, WHICH IS ABOUT $6000 OR $7000, AND WE ARE AT THE BOTTOM OF EVERYTHING, EVERY LIST THAT YOU COULD BE ON.

SO, WE ARE SICKER, AND IT IS MORE EXPENSIVE.

SO, FROM AN ECONOMIC POINT OF VIEW, IT IS REAL.

WE SHOULDN'T BE DOING THIS, WE COULD SAVE A LOT OF MONEY IF WE DID A LOT OF THINGS.

BUT, I THINK WHAT HAPPENS IS, WE HAVE A NON-HEALTHCARE IN THE UNITED STATES BECAUSE THERE IS NO UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE, AND IT IS EXPENSIVE, IT IS NOT HEALTHCARE, IT IS SICK CARE AND THAT IS THE WRONG WAY TO THINK ABOUT IT.

IF YOU CAN DO ALL OF THESE PREVENTATIVE THINGS EARLY ON, LIKE THEY DO IN KOREA -- I WENT TO KOREA, ONE OF THE LONGEST LIVING POPULATIONS IN THE WORLD, ESPECIALLY WOMEN -- YOU COULD PRETEND OF A LOT OF WHAT WILL HAPPEN LATER, WHICH IS INEVITABLE, BUT YOU COULD HAVE THIS LIFE WITH A LIFESPAN AND A HEALTH SPAN, WHERE THAT GELS TOGETHER WHERE YOU LIVE A LONGER, HEALTHIER LIFE, UNTIL YOUR DYING DAY.

>> WELL, I THINK THAT'S REALLY INTERESTING BECAUSE IT'S ONE THING TO LIVE MUCH LONGER, IT'S ANOTHER THING TO LIVE HEALTHY, AND JOYFULLY, AND ACTUALLY ENJOY THOSE LAST FEW YEARS.

BUT, I WANT TO PICK UP ON WHAT YOU MENTIONED ABOUT SOUTH KOREA AND WOMEN.

BECAUSE LOOK, A LOT OF THESE YOUNG MEN -- AND YOU MENTIONED BRIAN WHO IS 46, AND ALL PECKED- UP AND LOOKS PRETTY GOOD, PHYSICALLY -- >> BEZOS.

>> BEZOS, EXACTLY, DOING THE SAME THING.

AND WOMEN HAVE BEEN UNDER THIS PRESSURE, TO LOOK GOOD, AND, YOU KNOW, TO PERFORM LIKE, YOU KNOW, LIKE, YOU KNOW, LIKE THEY WERE SO SO SHOWPIECES, RIGHT?

AND NOW, THE MEN ARE DOING IT, WHAT GIVES?

>> WHEN WOMEN DID IT, IT IS BODY DYSMORPHIA, WHEN MEN DO IT, IT'S "BODY HACKING," LIKE, OF COURSE IT'S SEEN AS A GOOD THING.

IT'S PART OF THIS NARCISSISTIC TENDENCY WITH A LOT OF THESE PEOPLE, LIKE WE WERE TALKING ABOUT.

BUT, I THINK IT IS A REAL FEAR OF DEATH, AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT CAME THROUGH REALLY QUICKLY WAS A LOT OF STUDIES, FEAR OF DEATH LEADS TO LOSS OF LONGEVITY AND ACCEPTANCE OF DEATH LETS YOU LIVE LONGER, WHICH IS IRONIC WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT.

I THINK THEY ARE JUST FEARFUL AND THEY LIVE IN THESE SORT OF BUBBLES AND THEY ARE SORT OF WEALTHY AND THEY CAN BUY EVERYTHING.

BUT, THERE IS A "YOU CAN'T TAKE IT WITH YOU" KIND OF QUALITY TO EVERYTHING WE DO.

AND THEY FEEL LIKE, "WAIT A MINUTE, I CAN'T TAKE IT WITH ME?

MAYBE I CAN PUT MY BRAIN IN ANOTHER BODY, MAYBE I CAN CREATE A DIGITAL VERSION OF MYSELF."

THERE ARE ALL KINDS OF SCHEMES THEY ARE DOING, BUT MOSTLY, THEY ARE DOING WHAT ELON MUSK ONCE CALLED THE MEAT SACK.

YOU HAVE A MEAT SACK YOU ARE CARRYING AROUND WITH YOU.

SO, WHAT DO YOU DO WITH THAT MEAT SACK?

SAME TIME, CHRISTIANE, THERE IS SO MUCH AMAZING STUFF HAPPENING TO HELP WITH TECHNOLOGY, LIKE A.I., IN TERMS OF GENE ISSUES, AROUND DRUG DISCOVERY, AROUND CANCER, MRNA TECHNOLOGY IS ASTONISHING.

OF COURSE, IT HAS BEEN POLITICIZED IN THE UNITED STATES.

GLP-1'S -- ALL OF THIS STUFF IS HAPPENING AT THE SAME TIME, SO MUCH MISINFORMATION AND NONSENSE IS OUT THERE.

SO, I WANTED TO SORT OF BREAK THAT APART, AND UNDERSTAND, WHAT IS WORKING AND WHAT ISN'T.

>> I'M GOING TO PLAY ANOTHER CLIP BECAUSE THIS IS, YOU KNOW, ESSENTIALLY, YOU DEFINING THE GOOD LIFE, YOU POINT OUT THAT THE TECH BILLIONAIRES ARE DESPERATE TO HANG ON, BUT THEY ALMOST NEVER TALK ABOUT THE QUALITY OF LIFE.

SO, THIS IS WHAT WE ARE DISCUSSING, YOU KNOW, WHAT ENGAGES THE BRAIN, WHEN YOU ARE SPEAKING TO NEUROSCIENTIST WENDY SUZUKI.

>> YOU STUDY THIS.

TALK ABOUT THIS?

YOU ARE IN NEUROSCIENTIST.

>> I STUDY BRAINS -- HOW THE BRAIN CAN LEARN AND GROW FROM PARTICULAR TYPES OF ACTIVITIES.

I STUDY EXERCISE.

BUT, WE KNOW THAT LEARNING IS REALLY, REALLY GOOD FOR THE BRAIN.

IT IS A STRATEGY, IT IS THAT INTERACTION, IT IS CREATIVITY.

ONE OF MY SPECIALTIES IS A BRAIN STRUCTURE CALLED THE HIPPOCAMPUS, SO THAT TEMPORAL LOBE, YOU HAVE ONE ON THE RIGHT AND ONE ON THE LEFT.

THAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT FOR MEMORY.

YOU NEED IT TO REMEMBER WHAT YOU HAVE PUT DOWN IN TEXAS HOLD 'EM, IT'S ALSO IMPORTANT FOR IMAGINATION.

IF YOU ARE TRYING TO GET SOMETHING GOING IN YOUR GAME STRATEGY, YOU NEED THAT IMAGINATION TO ENVISION WHAT THAT STRATEGY MIGHT BE.

>> GAMES BOOST YOUR BRAIN, BUT THE REAL WIN?

YOU USUALLY CAN'T PLAY ALONE.

AND IT TURNS OUT, INTERACTING WITH ACTUAL HUMANS -- MESSY, OPINIONATED, RULE BENDING HUMANS -- IS WHAT FIGHTS LONELINESS AND HELPS YOU LIVE LONGER.

>> AND FOR ME, THAT WAS THE "BINGO" MOMENT.

IT IS ALL ABOUT COMMUNITY.

>> IT IS.

>> AND IN REAL LIFE.

AND I LEARNED ABOUT WHAT ALSO YOU LEARNED, BECAUSE YOU TOUCHED ON THIS ISSUE WITH GEN Z AND WHETHER THEY HAVE A DIFFERENT VIEW OF THE BOUNDARY BETWEEN, YOU KNOW, LIFE, AND DEATH, AND LONGEVITY.

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, WHAT IS INTERESTING IS THAT THIS IS ALL YOUNG PEOPLE IN A BASEMENT IN BROOKLYN IN THIS FOOD HALL AND WHAT IS INTERESTING IS YOUNG PEOPLE ARE PUSHING AWAY.

ONE OF THE CONTRASTS I WANTED TO PUT IS BETWEEN ONLINE AND OFF-LINE WORLDS.

ONLINE, WITH THE CHATBOT'S AND THE CHAT RELATIONSHIPS, IT'S VERY INJURIOUS TO LONGEVITY BECAUSE IT IS SEAMLESS, CHRISTIANE, AND FRICTION IS WHAT CREATES MUCH MORE COGNITIVE HEALTH, WHICH IS PART OF LIVING LONGER, RIGHT?

AND EVERYTHING ELSE.

AND SO, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT IS REALLY ASTONISHING, PEOPLE ASK ME, "WHAT OTHER BIG SECRETS, KARA?

WHAT ARE THE BIG SECRET?"

YOU CAN GO INTO MRNA, AND GLP-1, ET CETERA, BUT THE TWO THINGS THAT ARE CRITICAL TO LONGEVITY -- DON'T BE POOR.

I HATE TO SAY THAT, BUT IT IS TRUE.

TO BE RICH, THAT HELPS.

MOST IMPORTANT THING IS SOCIAL AND HUMAN CONNECTIONS.

THERE IS ALL THIS SCIENCE BEHIND THAT, AND IT IS REALLY ASTONISHING, HOW MUCH THE ONLINE WORLD -- AND WE HAVE BECOME EXTREMELY ONLINE -- IS GOING TO HURT US.

AND HOW HELPFUL IT IS TO BE WITH PEOPLE, IT IS ACTUALLY HEALTH IMPROVING.

SO, IT'S A VERY SIMPLE ANSWER, IT DOESN'T COST ANYTHING AND YOU DON'T HAVE TO PAY FOR, LIKE, A RED LIGHT MASK OR WHATEVER NONSENSE THEY ARE TRYING TO PUSH ON YOU.

AND THAT, TO ME, WAS THE MOST IMPORTANT INSIGHT, HERE.

IF YOU SPEND TIME WITH MORE PEOPLE OVER YOUR LIFE, YOU WILL LIVE LONGER AND MORE HEALTHILY.

>> I AGREE WITH YOU.

>> CHRISTIANE, HAVE DINNER WITH ME!

>> [ LAUGHTER ] I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU, BUT YOU DID TEST ALL OF THIS STUFF, WELL, NOT ALL OF THIS, BUT QUITE A LOT OF THIS STUFF.

YOU GOT A HYPERBARIC CHAMBER, YOU GOT SOME KETAMINE, YOU DID THIS KIND OF STUFF.

ANYWAY, HERE IS THIS CLIP.

>> YEAH.

>> HELLO, AMY, THANKS FOR DRAGGING ME INTO THIS!

>> [ LAUGHTER ] >> SO, YOU HAVE DONE ALL THESE THINGS, RIGHT?

>> I HAVE DONE ALL THESE THINGS, YEAH.

>> THIS IS THE ROLLS-ROYCE OF HYPERBARIC CHAMBERS?

>> YES, THIS IS NICE BECAUSE I AM A CLASSY DAME.

>> HOW DO THEY MEASURE SOMETHING LIKE THIS?

JUST, I FEEL OKAY?

>> DO YOU FEEL BETTER?

>> I FEEL THE SAME.

>> DO YOU FEEL SMARTER?

BECAUSE THEY WERE OUT THERE, THEY WERE LIKE, "I FEEL SO MUCH SHARPER."

YOUR ANSWERS, ARE THEY -- >> I THINK I AM SHARP ALL THE TIME.

>> I THINK YOU FAILED HER TEST.

[ LAUGHTER ] >> YES, IT'S NOT -- YOU DO NOT GO IN A HYPERBARIC CHAMBER, CHRISTIANE.

IT DOESN'T HELP.

>> I AM NOT.

>> DON'T TAKE KETAMINE.

IF YOU HAVE THE BENZ, OR A WOUND, GO FOR IT.

OTHERWISE, IT IS SOMETHING THEY ARE TRYING TO SELL YOU ON YOUR HEALTH, AND THIS DOESN'T HELP YOU, IT JUST DOESN'T.

EVEN THOUGH PEOPLE SAYS IT DOES.

>> LET ME ASK YOU, BECAUSE I CAN'T LET YOU GO WITHOUT ASKING YOU ABOUT SOME OF YOUR NEWS KNOWLEDGE FIRST, SAM ALTMAN IN COURT RIGHT NOW, HOW IS THIS GOING TO TURN OUT?

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

>> SPEAKING OF BAD HEALTH -- I THINK IT'S BAD FOR BOTH OF THEM.

I THINK IT'S BAD FOR BOTH COMPANIES.

I -- ELON HAS BEEN ON THE STAND SORT OF SOILING HIMSELF RATHER NICELY OVER THERE BECAUSE ANYTIME HE GETS PUSHBACK BEING IN THIS WORLD -- SPEAKING OF WORLDS THAT ARE INSULAR -- HE IS NOT USED TO BEING PUSHED ON.

WHAT HAPPENED WAS, HE WAS AN EARLY FUNDER OF THIS, THE MOST SIGNIFICANT FUNDER, AND THEN HE LEFT BECAUSE HE COULDN'T TAKE CONTROL OF IT.

AND NOW, HE HAS -- YOU KNOW, IT IS THE BIGGEST REGRET OF HIS LIFE BECAUSE HE DIDN'T THINK THEY COULD DO WHAT SAM ALTMAN DID WITH IT.

SO, HE IS TRYING TO PRETEND HE IS THE HERO AND EVERYTHING ELSE AND IT IS NOT GOOD FOR EITHER COMPANY, IT'S VERY BAD FOR THE BRAND OF A.I., I WILL TELL YOU THAT, WHICH IS ALREADY ON A DOWNWARD SLOPE.

FAST-MOVING DOWNWARD SLOPE.

>> AND ONE OTHER LAST QUESTION BECAUSE IT'S A BIG DEAL, TOO, THE ISSUE OF THE A.I.

AND PENTAGON, BLOOMBERG REPORTED THAT THE WHITE HOUSE IS DROPPING AN A.I.

POLICY MEMO, OUTLINING REQUIREMENTS FOR A.I.

DEPLOYMENT FOR NATIONAL SECURITY AGENCIES.

TELL ME WHAT YOU KNOW ABOUT THAT?

OF COURSE, AFTER ANTHROPIC REFUSED TO ALLOW THE DOD TO USE ITS MASS SURVEILLANCE AND AUTONOMOUS WEAPONS?

>> IT DEPENDS ON WHAT IS IN THERE.

IT MIGHT BE A WIN FOR ANTHROPIC.

ANTHROPIC IS CORRECT AND THAT IS WHY I AM WORRIED ABOUT THIS GROUP OF PEOPLE DOING THIS, BECAUSE IT IS CHOCK-FULL OF SILICON VALLEY, FOR PEOPLE IN THOSE POSITIONS, SO, IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH NATIONAL SECURITY.

IT IS ABOUT DOMINATING A.I., WHATEVER PRIVATE COMPANY, AND GOVERNMENT IS JUST SEEN AS AN ADVANTAGE AND DONALD TRUMP IS THE WILLING DUPE, THE COIN- OPERATED PRESIDENT WHO IS GOING TO LET THEM DO IT.

>> WELL, YOU KEEP THE TECH PROS HONEST, KEEP DOING IT.

KARA SWISHER, THANK YOU SO MUCH AND FOR THIS PROGRAM.

>> THANKS, CHRISTIANE.

>>> WHILE NEGOTIATIONS TO END THE WAR IN IRAN STALL, THE UNITED STATES HAS YET TO GIVE AN ENTIRELY CLEAR RATIONALE FOR STARTING IT IN THE FIRST PLACE, MUCH LESS AN EXIT STRATEGY.

OUR NEXT GUEST ARGUES THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS INVOKING CHRISTIAN SCRIPTURE AS A MORAL JUSTIFICATION FOR THIS WAR.

IT IS A TOPIC PETER WEHNER EXPLORES IN DEPTH IN TWO RECENT COLUMNS FOR "THE ATLANTIC" WHERE HE IS A WRITER AND HE IS JOINING MICHEL MARTIN TO DISCUSS WHAT THIS MEANS FOR POLITICS AND RELIGION.

>> THANKS, CHRISTIANE.

PETER WEHNER, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> IT IS DELIGHTFUL TO BE WITH YOU, THANKS FOR HAVING ME ON.

>> PEOPLE WHO FOLLOW YOUR WRITING KNOW YOU HAVE SPENT YEARS WRITING ABOUT FAITH, POLITICS, AND POWER.

AND IN TWO RECENT PIECES IN "THE ATLANTIC", YOU ARE REALLY WRESTLING WITH WHAT HAPPENS WHEN RELIGION IS USED EITHER TO JUSTIFY WAR, OR TO RESTRAIN IT.

SO, AS WE LOOK AT THE IRAN WAR RIGHT NOW, WHAT ARE SOME OF THE CENTRAL MORAL QUESTIONS THAT YOU FEEL NEED TO BE WRESTLED WITH?

I THINK THE CENTRAL MORAL QUESTION IS WHETHER THE WAR IS LEGITIMATE ON MORAL GROUNDS AND THAT IS A REAL DEBATE TO BE HAD.

THAT IS TRUE OF ANY WAR.

YOU HAVE TO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT FACTS AND CIRCUMSTANCES.

I THINK, WHAT TROUBLES ME IN THIS PRESENT MOMENT IS, ONE, I WOULD SAY, IS PRESIDENT TRUMP AND HIS TEAM HAVE NOT MADE ANY ARGUMENT, REALLY, FOR GOING TO WAR, LET ALONE A MORAL ARGUMENT FOR GOING TO WAR.

BUT, BEYOND THAT, IT IS THE INVOCATION PARTICULARLY BY SECRETARY OF DEFENSE HEGSETH, BUT NOT ONLY BY HIM, TO USE THE BIBLE TO VALIDATE THIS WAR, AND TO ESSENTIALLY CAST THE WAR AS A SPIRITUAL AND RELIGIOUS STRUGGLE.

AND I THINK THEY ARE WRONG TO DO THAT, I THINK IT IS DESTRUCTIVE TO THE LARGER DEBATE THAT WE ARE HAVING, AND I THINK IT IS ALSO DESTRUCTIVE TO THE CHRISTIAN FAITH, WHICH HEGSETH PROCLAIMS.

>> AT A WORSHIP SERVICE ON MARCH 25th, SECRETARY HEGSETH REPORTEDLY PRAYED FOR VIOLENCE AGAINST THOSE WHO "DESERVED NO MERCY," HIS WORDS.

SOME MILITARY REPORTING AROUND THAT.

SAID THAT COMMANDERS WERE TELLING TROOPS THAT THE WAR WAS PART OF "GOD'S PLAN."

AND THAT TRUMP HAD BEEN "ANOINTED BY JESUS" TO TRIGGER ARMAGEDDON.

AT THE SAME TIME, PRESIDENT TRUMP TOLD IRANIANS TO "TAKE OVER YOUR GOVERNMENT AND HELP IS ON THE WAY."

SO, WHEN YOU PUT THOSE TWO STATEMENTS TOGETHER, WHAT DOES THAT SAY ABOUT HOW THE WAR IS BEING FRAMED?

>> YEAH, I THINK WHAT IT SAYS IS, THE WAR IS BEING FRAMED AS A HOLY WAR, AS A RELIGIOUS WAR, AND THAT IS THE WRONG FRAME.

I DON'T THINK THE APPLICATION -- IN FACT, I AM QUITE CERTAIN THAT THE APPLICATION WHERE THEY ARE USING THESE BIBLICAL TEXTS TO JUSTIFY WHAT IS ESSENTIALLY A MERCILESS WAR, A WAR OF TOTAL DESTRUCTION.

WE HEARD FROM THE PRESIDENT IN ONE OF HIS TWEETS SEVERAL WEEKS AGO, A THREAT TO DESTROY THE ENTIRE CIVILIZATION.

THERE IS A TRADITION, AS IT IS CALLED, "THE JUST WAR TRADITION" WITHIN CHRISTIANITY, ABOUT WHETHER ONE SHOULD GO, WHETHER A COUNTRY SHOULD GO TO WAR AND IF YOU DO GO TO WAR, WHAT ARE THE PARAMETERS OF THAT WAR?

HOW DO YOU PROSECUTE A WAR JUSTLY?

THAT IS NOT EASY BECAUSE WAR, BY ITS VERY NATURE, INVOLVES A VERY LOT OF COMP THE KID QUESTIONS AND DOING THINGS YOU MIGHT NOT OTHERWISE DO, BUT YOU STILL HAVE TO HAVE CONSTRAINTS THAT KEEP YOU FROM ACTING IN WAYS THAT ARE BARBAROUS.

AND WHAT WE ARE SEEING FROM THE ADMINISTRATION IS NOT ONLY NO REFERENCE OR ENGAGEMENT WITH THE JUST WAR THEORY, IT IS ACTUALLY TURNING IT UPSIDE DOWN, AND IT'S -- THE ARGUMENT THAT THEY ARE MAKING IS THAT THE JUST WAR THEORY DOESN'T MATTER AND MORALITY DOESN'T MATTER.

WE ARE GOING TO WAR, WE ARE ON THE SIDE OF GOD, AND WE CAN DO CARTE BLANCHE, WE CAN DO ANYTHING WE WANT IN THE NAME OF GOD TO WIN THIS WAR, AND THAT CAN LEAD TO NOT ONLY A LOT OF TERRIBLE HUMAN DESTRUCTION, UNNECESSARY HUMAN DESTRUCTION, BUT IT CAN WEAKEN THE MORAL STATURE OF THE UNITED STATES, TO DO THIS KIND OF THING.

AND I THINK IT IS A DEFAMATION OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH, IN THE NAME OF JESUS, AND I AM A PERSON OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH, SO THAT TROUBLES ME, TOO.

>> IN YOUR APRIL 13th PIECE FOR "THE ATLANTIC", IT IS TITLED "HEGSETH'S UNHOLY WAR" YOU RIGHT THAT, THE DEFENSE SECRETARY SEEMS LESS INTERESTED ON BEING ON THE SIDE OF GOD, THEN INSISTING GOD IS ON HIS SIDE.

AND IN THE SAME PIECE, YOU ARGUE THAT HEGSETH'S LANGUAGE IS NOT JUST POLITICAL SPIN, BUT SOMETHING DEEPER THAN THAT.

AT A PENTAGON PRESS BRIEFING ON APRIL 16th, 2026, HEGSETH DISMISSED NEGATIVE COVERAGE, OR MORAL CRITICISM AS "INCREDIBLY UNPATRIOTIC," AND "AN ENDLESS STREAM OF GARBAGE," COMPARED THE PRESS TO THE BIBLICAL PHARISEES AND SAID, "IT IS OFTEN HARD TO FIND OUT WHAT SIDE YOU ARE ACTUALLY ON."

A COUPLE QUESTIONS I HAD ABOUT THAT IS, WHERE DOES HIS WORLDVIEW COME FROM, IN YOUR REPORTING?

>> I THINK HE HAS REACHED FOR FAITH TO TRY AND PUT MEANING INTO HIS LIFE, IT IS NO SECRET THAT HE HAS HAD SOMETHING OF A DISSOLUTE LIFE.

AND I THINK HE HAS GONE TO FAITH TO TRY TO BRING IT TOGETHER.

NOW, A LOT OF PEOPLE DO THAT.

I THINK IN THIS CASE, WITH HEGSETH, A COUPLE THINGS ARE GOING ON.

ONE IS, HE HAS FOUND HIMSELF UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF A PASTOR NAMED DOUG WILSON, WHO WAS WITH REFORM TRADITION, WITHIN PROTESTANT WORLD, THAT I THINK DEEPLY MISUNDERSTANDS CHRISTIANITY AND CORRUPTS AND DISTORTS THE SCRIPTURAL TEACHINGS.

SO, I THINK THAT IS ONE THING THAT IS GOING ON WITH HEGSETH.

THE OTHER THING THAT IS HAPPENING WITH HIM -- AND THIS IS NOT SPECIFIC ONLY TO HIM, IT IS A TEMPTATION THAT I THINK ALL PEOPLE OF FAITH HAVE, BUT I THINK IT IS PARTICULARLY PRONOUNCED IN HIS CASE -- AND THAT IS, YOU TAKE PRE-EXISTING SENTIMENTS, REFLEXES, SENSIBILITIES, CORE IDENTITIES, AND YOU PROOF TEXT THE BIBLE TO VALIDATE WHAT YOU ALREADY BELIEVE, SO THE BIBLE AND FAITH BECOMES ALMOST A HOOD ORNAMENT.

IT IS SECONDARY TO OTHER THINGS AND IN THIS CASE, I THINK IT IS SECRETARY -- SECONDARY TO PETE HEGSETH PSYCHOLOGICAL PROFILE, THE DOGMATISM'S THAT HE IS A PART OF THE WORLD, WHICH IS THE MAGA WORLD, THAT IS REALLY WHAT HE IS GOING TO DO, THAT IS WHAT HE IS GOING TO ACT, AND HE WANTS TO VALIDATE THAT AND HE VALIDATES IT BY INVOKING, IN THE CASE OF SOME OF THESE SERVICES HE HAS HELD AT THE PENTAGON, BY INVOKING THE BIBLE IN THE NAME OF GOD TO JUSTIFY AND RATIFY WHAT HE WANTS TO DO.

THE TROUBLE IS, THAT WHAT HE IS TRYING TO DO, WHICH IS TO GET THE BIBLE TO VALIDATE HIS APPROACH, ACTUALLY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT THE BIBLE OR WHAT GOD WANTS.

>> YOU KNOW, THE SCRIPTURES -- THE HEBREW SCRIPTURES AND THE SUBSEQUENT NEW TESTAMENT SAY A LOT OF THINGS.

AND YOU CAN FIND JUSTIFICATION FOR A LOT OF THINGS.

>> INDEED.

>> THERE IS GENOCIDE, YOU KNOW?

THERE IS, YOU KNOW, SMITING, THERE IS ALSO LOVE, COMPASSION, EMPATHY, TOLERANCE, BUT SO IS INCREDIBLE VIOLENCE.

>> YEAH.

>> SO, I GUESS, HOW -- HOW CAN WE KIND OF SORT OUT WHAT IS A MISAPPLICATION OF THESE TEXTS, AND WHAT IS, KIND OF, THE TRUTH?

>> YOU KNOW, SHAKESPEARE GOT AT THIS IN "THE VIRGIN DENNIS," WHEN HE QUOTED SCRIPTURE FOR HIS OWN PURPOSES AND IT IS PARTICULARLY FOR THE REASON YOU SAID, THE BIBLE IS NOT A SINGLE BOOK, LIKE LIBRARY BOOKS AND YOU CAN PROOF TEXT VIRTUALLY ANYTHING THAT A PERSON WANTS TO IN THE NAME OF STRICTURE.

THIS IS A GREAT STRUGGLE IN AMERICAN HISTORY, SLAVERY AND ANTISLAVERY, BOTH SIDES QUOTED THE BIBLE FOR THEIR PURPOSES AND BOTH OF THEM HAD TEXTS THAT THEY COULD INVOKE.

THE BIBLE IS NOT A SIMPLE BOOK TO INTERPRET.

SO, THAT RAISES THE QUESTION YOU DID, WHICH IS, HOW DO YOU SORT YOUR WAY THROUGH THIS COMPLICATED -- ONE IS, I WOULD SAY, THIS IS, I THINK, A TRUER IMPRESSION, THE OLDER I HAVE GOTTEN, WHICH IS, THE CENTRAL EMPLOYMENTS OF DISCERNMENT OF SENSIBILITIES, THAT IS THE CAPACITY TO SORT THROUGH FACTS AND CIRCUMSTANCES TO TRY TO FIGURE OUT, WHAT DOES THE MOMENT REQUIRE OF ME?

BUT SIMPLY PROOF TEXTING THE BIBLE, SAYING, "THE BIBLE SAID IT, I BELIEVE IT, THAT SETTLES IT," THAT HAS GOTTEN CHRISTIANS IN A LOT OF REALLY BAD PLACES THROUGHOUT HISTORY.

THE OTHER THING I WOULD SAY, IS A PRETTY GOOD THING TO KEEP IN MIND WHEN ONE IS ASKING ONESELF THESE QUESTIONS IS, WHAT IS THE END RESULT?

WHAT IS THE END PRODUCT OF IT?

IF WHAT YOU ARE DOING IN THE INVOCATION OF BIBLICAL VERSES IS ADVANCING IN JUSTICE, ADVANCING SUFFERING, ADVANCING PAIN, THAT, I THINK, YOU HAVE TO CALL INTO QUESTION WHETHER THAT INTERPRETATION IS LEADING YOU THE WRONG WAY BECAUSE I THINK THE ANSWER YOU ARE SPEAKING OF, AS A PERSON OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH -- I MEAN, IF LOVE NEST -- LOVELESS NESS AND WHAT IS ANTITHETICAL TO JESUS, IS WHAT YOU ARE DOING IN YOUR USE OF THE BIBLE, AND YOUR USE OF THE BIBLE, THEN YOU ARE JUST REALLY OFF.

THE THIRD THING I WILL SAY, YOU JUST NEED PEOPLE IN YOUR LIFE WHO YOU TRUST IN YOUR LIFE WHO HAVE SOME SENSE OF MATURITY INCLUDING SPIRITUAL MATURITY, WHO CAN HELP POINT OUT, "LOOK, YOU ARE JUST TAKING US IN THE WRONG DIRECTION."

>> WELL, SPEAKING OF, SOMEBODY WHO SAYS THAT IS NOT THE WAY IT IS AND WE ARE GOING TO SPEAK OUT AGAINST IT, IN YOUR LATEST PIECE, YOU DESCRIBED POPE LEO, THE FIRST AMERICAN-BORN POPE, AS SOMEONE WHO IS UNWILLING TO SUBORDINATE HIS FAITH TO POLITICS, OR TO ADJUST HIS COMMITMENT TO THE GOSPEL IN EXCHANGE FOR ACCESS TO POWER.

I CAN'T THINK OF A TIME WHEN THERE WAS AN EXCHANGE LIKE THIS BETWEEN AN AMERICAN PRESIDENT AND A POPE.

JUST, AS BRIEFLY AS YOU CAN, WALK US THROUGH WHAT HAPPENED, HERE, FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVEN'T FOLLOWED IT?

>> YEAH, POPE LEO, AMERICAN POPE BORN IN CHICAGO, HE HAS HAD SOME STATEMENTS OVER THE LAST SEVERAL MONTHS THAT HAVE TAKEN ISSUE WITH SOME ELEMENTS WITH, I WOULD SAY, THE TRUMPIAN APPROACH, MASS DEPORTATION, THE USE OF JESUS, THAT TRUMP HAS DONE IN SOME OF HIS SOCIAL MEDIA PIECES, BUT ESPECIALLY ON THE IRAN WAR.

AND SHE HAS EXPRESSED SUGGESTIONS TO IT.

HIS POPE, THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, TRADITIONALLY, SPEAKS OUT ON BEHALF OF PEACE.

BUT, THE FACT THAT A POPE WOULD SPEAK OUT ON BEHALF OF THE ACTIONS OF A COUNTRY OR PRESIDENT IS NOT UNUSUAL.

IT HAS HAPPENED BEFORE.

I THINK WHAT IS DIFFERENT ABOUT THIS, IS DONALD TRUMP, IN RESPONDING TO POPE LEO, DOES WHAT HE ALWAYS DOES, WHICH IS THE PERSONALIZATION OF IT, THE WAY IN WHICH HE IS SO AGGRESSIVELY GOING AFTER POPE LEO.

>> AND JUST TO CLARIFY, FOR PEOPLE LOOKING IN, HE CALLED HIM, "WEAK ON CRIME," HE SAID, THE POPE DOESN'T MIND IF IRAN HAS A BOMB, SAYING, HE DOESN'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT WAR, SAYING, HE DOESN'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT FOREIGN POLICY, HE IS "WEAK ON FOREIGN POLICY," ET CETERA.

I WAS WONDERING IF YOU COULD FRAME FOR US JUST HOW REMARKABLE THIS IS?

BECAUSE A LOT OF PEOPLE JUST FIND IT SHOCKING.

>> AND PEOPLE ARE RIGHT TO BE SHOCKED.

AND IT IS UNPRECEDENTED.

REALLY, IT HAS NEVER HAPPENED.

AGAIN, PRESIDENT'S AND POPES HAVE HAD DIFFERENCES ALWAYS OVERTIME, BUT IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN RESPECTFUL DIFFERENCES.

AND I SHOULD ALSO ADD, TRUMP IS TAKING ON THE LEADER OF 1.4 BILLION CATHOLICS WORLDWIDE AND A LOT OF CATHOLICS WITHIN THE UNITED STATES.

I WILL SAY, SEVERAL THINGS ABOUT THE FACT POPE LEO SPOKE OUT, ONE IS WHAT YOU ALLUDED TO, WHICH IS, HERE IS AN EXAMPLE OF A PERSON OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH WHO IS NOT SUBORDINATING THE GOSPEL TO BE CLOSE TO POWER.

HE HAS NO INTEREST IN BEING CLOSE TO POWER, COZYING UP TO POWER.

AND HE HAS NO CAREER AMBITIONS THAT HE IS AFTER.

SO, THAT, I THINK, IS NOTABLE.

BUT, THE OTHER THING THAT IS NOTABLE TO ME -- IT WAS, I DON'T KNOW, KIND OF AN ARCHETYPAL SORT OF CONFLICT -- ONE WAS THE FACT THAT YOU HAVE MEN THAT ARE JUST POLAR OPPOSITES.

ONE WHO IS A PERSON OF DEEP RELIGIOUS FAITH, WHOSE ENTIRE INTERIOR LIFE HAS BEEN SHAPED BY SPIRITUAL DISCIPLINES.

A MAN BY, ALL ACCOUNTS, OF CALMNESS, KINDNESS.

PART OF THE AUGUSTINE TRADITION OF CONTEMPLATION AND ACTION, AND A PREFERENTIAL TREATMENT FOR THE POOR, TO USE A CATHOLIC PHRASE.

SO, THAT IS ON THE ONE HAND.

AND THEN, ON THE OTHER HAND, YOU HAVE DONALD TRUMP, A MAN WHO IS TOTALLY AND COMPLETELY SECULAR, WHO VIEWS LIFE AS A SERIES OF CONQUESTS, SEXUAL CONQUESTS, FINANCIAL CONQUESTS, CONQUESTS IN THE LIFE OF POWER, WHO HAS NO INSTITUTIONAL TIES TO ANY CHURCH, WHO, HIMSELF, HAS SAID THAT HE DOESN'T NEED TO ASK FORGIVENESS FROM GOD FOR ANYTHING.

SO, YOU HAVE THAT CONCEPT, BUT BEYOND THAT, WHAT STRUCK ME IS NOT ONLY POPE LEO STANDING UP TO DONALD TRUMP BUT HE IS, IN A SENSE, ASCENDING DONALD TRUMP.

YOU MENTIONED THAT ATTACK ON THE POPE, SAYING HE WAS WEAK ON CRIME.

EVEN BY CHAMPION STANDARDS, THAT IS A LUDICROUS ATTACK.

WHAT IS THAT SUPPOSED TO MEAN?

I THINK WHAT IT MEANS IS DONALD TRUMP DOESN'T KNOW HOW TO ATTACK THIS POPE IN A WAY THAT IS MEANINGFUL.

>> WHAT ABOUT J.D.

VANCE, THE VICE PRESIDENT WHO CONVERTED TO CATHOLICISM IN 2019?

>> YEAH.

>> HE SAID -- AND THIS WAS AT A TURNING POINT USA EVENT, SORT OF THAT CAMPUS-ORIENTED MOVE TO SORT OF FOCUS ON CONSERVATIVE PRINCIPLES FOR COLLEGE KIDS, THIS WAS APRIL 14th AND THE PRESIDENT SAID THE POPE SHOULD "BE CAREFUL" WHEN TALKING ON MATTERS OF THEOLOGY.

HE SAID, THE VATICAN SHOULD STICK TO QUESTIONS OF MORALITY.

HE SAID, WHEN THE POPE IS NEVER ON THE GUIDE OF THOSE WHO WILL, THERE IS MORE THAN 1000 YEAR TRADITION OF JUST WAR THEORY."

WHAT YOU MAKE OF THE VICE PRESIDENT'S RESPONSE TO THIS?

>> LOOK, I THINK IT'S REASONABLE TO SAY THAT, THE POPE SHOULD BE CAREFUL, WHEN INVOKING HIS THEOLOGY, BUT I ALSO THINK IT IS FAIR TO SAY THAT J.D.

VANCE SHOULD BE CAREFUL ABOUT INVOKING THEOLOGY ON HIS PART, AS WELL.

YOU KNOW, AS I MENTIONED EARLIER, THERE IS A REAL DEBATE TO BE HAD ABOUT WARS AND THE ROLE OF FAITH AND WHETHER A WAR QUALIFIES AS A JUST WAR, OR NOT.

I THINK, THE TROUBLE WITH VICE PRESIDENT VANCE IS NOT THE CRITIQUE THAT YOU READ FROM AS IT RELATES TO THE POPE.

THOSE ARE FAIR QUESTIONS TO ASK.

I THINK THE TROUBLE WITH J.D.

VANCE, APART FROM THE FACT THAT HE IS A RECENT CONVERT TO CATHOLICISM, IS THAT HIS LIFE HAS SHOWN ITSELF TO BE ONE THAT ABUSES FAITH IN ORDER TO PURSUE POWER, AND TO -- AND TO PROMOTE DONALD TRUMP AND THE MAGA AGENDA, SO IN SOME SENSE, I THINK HE HAS DISQUALIFIED HIMSELF FROM THE START FOR THIS DEBATE.

>> SO, I WANTED TO LOOP BACK TO WHERE WE STARTED OUR CONVERSATION WHICH IS TO SAY, THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE WHO HAVE TOLD ME, FOR EXAMPLE, "WELL, I VOTED FOR HIM BECAUSE OF ABORTION, AND THERE WAS REALLY NO OTHER CHOICE."

OR, THE PEOPLE WHO SAY, "WELL, I MIGHT NOT LIKE THE WAY HE TALKS ABOUT PEOPLE, BUT HE IS PROMOTING THE THINGS THAT I CARE ABOUT."

LIKE, "I BELIEVE IN A STRONG, TRADITIONAL FAMILY STRUCTURE."

SO, HOW WOULD YOU WANT PEOPLE, PARTICULARLY PEOPLE WHO HAVE THAT POINT OF VIEW, TO THINK ABOUT THIS?

TO THINK ABOUT THE CURRENT MOMENT?

>> THE FIRST THING I WOULD SAY IS, IF YOU THINK DONALD TRUMP'S AGENDA IS PROMOTING THE THINGS YOU CARE MOST ABOUT, WHETHER IT IS ABORTION, OR -- LET'S SET ASIDE THE FACT THAT I THINK -- LET'S JUST SAY FOR THE SAKE OF THE ARGUMENT, HE IS.

YOU CAN DO TWO THINGS AT ONCE.

YOU CAN PRAISE HIM FOR WHAT YOU THINK HIS POLICY ACHIEVEMENTS ARE AND YOU CAN CALL HIM OUT FOR LOW MORALITY, AND CORRUPTION, AND UNETHICAL BEHAVIOR.

THE PROBLEM FOR A LOT OF THE EVANGELICALS AND FUNDAMENTALISTS IS THEY HAVE NOT DONE THAT.

THEY HAVE TOSSED THAT HAT OVER THE WALL AND THEY HAVE CHAMPION HIM AND DEFENDED HIM AT EVERY SINGLE POINT ALONG THIS UGLY PATH, AND YOU DON'T NEED TO DO THAT.

YOU DON'T NEED TO GIVE UP YOUR INDEPENDENCE OF JUDGMENT, OR YOUR MORAL INDEPENDENCE, FOR A POLITICAL LEADER.

AND THE LAST THING I WOULD SAY IS THAT, IF WHAT IS BEING PRODUCED -- AND HERE, I AM SPEAKING, YOU KNOW, TO CHRISTIANS -- IF WHAT IS BEING PRODUCED IS AN ACT THAT IS ANTITHETICAL TO THE ACTS OF JESUS, THEN YOU OUGHT TO ASK YOUR SELF A SECOND AND A THIRD TIME, "AM I ON THE RIGHT PATH?

AM I SUPPORTING THE RIGHT CAUSE?

AM I SUPPORTING THE RIGHT PERSON?"

I THINK THE ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION IS PRETTY CLEAR, AND I THINK ONLY SOMEBODY WITH A DEEP, VESTED INTEREST IN THE OUTCOME, CAN COME AWAY AND SAY, "DONALD TRUMP AND HIS ADMINISTRATION, OVER THESE LAST 10 YEARS, IS THE PERSONIFICATION OF A CHRISTIAN ETHIC."

HE IS THE OPPOSITE OF THAT, AND PEOPLE WHO VALUE THEIR FAITH, SHOULD SPEAK UP MORE OFTEN THAN THEY DO, FOR THE SAKE OF A COUNTRY THEY LOVE, AND FOR THE SAKE OF THE FAITH THAT THEY LOVE.

>> PETER WEHNER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH ME.

>> THANKS.

I ENJOYED IT VERY MUCH.

>>> FINALLY TONIGHT, TEAM SPIRIT IS TAKING ON A WHOLE NEW MEANING FOR AFGHANISTAN'S FEMALE SOCCER PLAYERS.

THIS WEEK, FIFA COMMITTED TO RECOGNIZING THEIR SQUAD AS THE AFGHAN NATIONAL TEAM AND THEIR TIMING COULDN'T BE MORE SIGNIFICANT, AS THE TALIBAN CONTINUES TO CRACKDOWN ON WOMEN'S RIGHTS, INCLUDING BANNING THEM FROM PLAYING SPORTS, AND FOR THE DOZENS OF PLAYERS WHO LIVE IN EXILE, THE MOVE IS A PRACTICAL AND EMOTIONAL GAME CHANGER.

HERE IS WHAT THE TEAM'S VICE CAPTAIN HAD TO SAY.

>> YOU KNOW, IT MEANS EVERYTHING.

IT IS THE RESULT OF YEARS OF STRUGGLE, AND SACRIFICES.

AND IT MEANS THE RESULT IS NOT GIVING UP.

FOR ME, IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT FOOTBALL, IT'S ABOUT BEING SEEN, BEING HEARD, AND FINALLY, BEING RECOGNIZED.

AND I AM SUPER PROUD THIS IS HAPPENING, BECAUSE OUR OLD TEAM MEMBERS, LIKE, ALL OF US HAD TO GIVE UP ON OUR DREAMS.

EVERY STRUGGLE THAT CAME UP ON OUR WAY, WE NEVER STOPPED PLAYING, WE NEVER STOPPED, YOU KNOW, DREAMING ABOUT SEEING OUR TEAM ON THE GLOBAL STAGE.

>> NEVER GIVE UP, INDEED.

IT IS THE BEGINNING OF A LONG JOURNEY TO REPRESENT THEIR COUNTRY AS THEY PREVIOUSLY PLAYED UNDER A REFUGEE BANNER.

AND I AM SURE EVERYONE WILL BE WISHING THEM LUCK FOR THEIR NEXT GAME.

THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP ON THE SHOW EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU WHAT FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE, FOR NOW.