AMNA NAWAZ: Good evening.

I'm Amna Nawaz.

GEOFF BENNETT: And I'm Geoff Bennett.

On the "News Hour" tonight: The global economy is stressed further, as China hits back against the U.S. with more tariffs of its own.

AMNA NAWAZ: The president removes more top national security officials, drawing praise from far right conspiracy theorist and Trump ally Laura Loomer.

GEOFF BENNETT: And how one of the nation's preeminent art centers in Washington, D.C., has been pushed into the larger partisan divide.

PHILIP KENNICOTT, The Washington Post: I think the example set at the Kennedy Center will have a chilling effect on other organizations all across the country.

(BREAK) GEOFF BENNETT: Welcome to the "News Hour."

Stocks were in freefall again today, ending the market's worst week in years as a trade war with China heated up over tariffs.

The losses were widespread, with the Dow down 5.5 percent today.

The Nasdaq dropped nearly 6 percent and has now entered bear market territory, meaning it's down at least 20 percent from its recent high.

And the benchmark S&P 500 dropped by nearly 6 percent.

That's more than 10 percent in the last two days alone.

It came in spite of a strong jobs report that came in much higher than expected.

228,000 new jobs last month.

AMNA NAWAZ: The markets were focused on the escalating trade battles, dropping sharply after China responded to President Trump's Wednesday tariffs with their own, 34 percent on all imported U.S. goods.

Markets also fell after Federal Reserve Chair Jerome Powell said tariffs are expected to lead to higher prices and to weaken the economy.

JEROME POWELL, Federal Reserve Chairman: Inflation is going to be moving up and growth is going to be slowing, but it isn't really -- it's -- to me, it's not clear at this time what the appropriate path for monetary policy will be.

AMNA NAWAZ: For more on the latest, I'm joined now by Justin Wolfers.

He's professor of economics and public policy at the University of Michigan.

Professor Wolfers, welcome back to the "News Hour."

Thanks for joining us.

JUSTIN WOLFERS, University of Michigan: I wish I was here with good news, mate.

AMNA NAWAZ: Well, let's talk about the latest news.

As you saw there, another tough day for the markets in reaction to those tariffs.

Tell me how you're looking at this.

I mean, how much can you really read into these first 48 hours of investors and traders reacting?

Is it a lot or is it too early to tell?

JUSTIN WOLFERS: Oh, I think definitely a lot.

One of the phrases one keeps hearing out of the administration is short-term pain the long-term gain.

Now, if that were true, buying stocks would be a good idea, because if we get long-term gain, American companies -- that's who these tariffs are meant to help -- would become more valuable, in which case investors would be bidding up their value.

So what you're seeing here is a very clear evaluation from the market that this is not only short-term pain.

They're anticipating long-term pain to go with it as well.

AMNA NAWAZ: You have, as you mentioned, seen the president's arguments about the short term pain.

He also argues this is about fundamentally reshaping the American economy, right, boosting manufacturing, encouraging more investment.

They point to some of those large amounts of investment that have been coming in, in recent weeks.

Could these tariffs -- given enough time, could they have some of those intended impacts?

JUSTIN WOLFERS: No.

And, unfortunately, we have the White House chaos to blame for this.

Look, here's the theory.

You try and make it more attractive for companies to build their factories in the United States, rather than elsewhere.

That's -- so far, that makes sense.

Here's the problem.

When I go to build a factory today, that factory's not going to be complete for another three, four or five years.

And then that factory's going to exist for several decades after that.

That means my decision about whether to build in the United States has nothing to do with tomorrow's tariffs, but rather has everything to do with my expectations of tariffs in five years' time and through the decades after that.

The problem is, this is a chaotic White House.

When they announce tariffs on Wednesday, you're not sure they're still going to be there on Thursday.

No one in the business community feels confident that they know the status of tariffs next week, next year, let alone what really matters, which is next decade.

As a result, we're going to get all the costs of the tariffs, but none of those benefits.

AMNA NAWAZ: Is there still a chance, though, because we have seen some statements of support the White House has been pushing out from the Steel Manufacturers Association, the National Cattlemen's Beef Association -- could certain sectors benefit from these policies?

JUSTIN WOLFERS: Oh, it's absolutely the case that if you prevented Australian beef coming to American shores, two things are true.

American beef farmers would sell more beef and Americans would eat lower-quality beef on average.

That definitely could happen, but is it worth it?

Remember, a lot of these tariffs are about - - tariffs apply just as much to beef as they apply to coffee.

America doesn't grow coffee.

We could put the tariffs up to infinity and they're not going to do anything to help us grow coffee here in the United States.

All they're going to do is tax American consumers.

AMNA NAWAZ: The fact that we're already seeing some countries, particularly from Southeast Asia, step in to say, we want to negotiate, we will lower our tariffs, let's buy more American goods, is that a sign to you that some of this strategy by the White House is working?

JUSTIN WOLFERS: No.

That sounds strange to say, right, which is it sounds like we're getting concessions.

But here's the thing.

When Trump was young, it was true that many of our trading partners had high tariffs.

Today, they don't.

Take one of the countries that gave one of these big concessions today, Vietnam.

Vietnam said it will cut its tariffs.

But here's the thing.

Vietnam's preexisting level of tariffs was already only 1 percent.

So what we have is, we have started the trade war.

The gains we get might be that some of our trading partners reduce their tariffs by 1 percentage point.

That's happening at the same time that we're getting retaliatory tariffs from China of 34 percent.

So the problem here is, even if we win, we don't win very much.

And along the way, we're accruing a whole heck of a lot of damage.

AMNA NAWAZ: Professor, I want to put to you the bigger picture argument that we have heard again and again that people who support these policies make in support of President Trump, people like Mark DiPlacido, who's a trade policy adviser at the conservative group American Compass.

He writes basically that the whole free trade paradigm has already imposed immense costs on millions of Americans.

Here's what he says: "For the millions of U.S. workers and families who've lost their jobs and communities to globalization, the catastrophe has already happened.

Cheap foreign goods do not make up for those losses."

What do you make of that argument?

JUSTIN WOLFERS: Look, here's the problem with doing media economics.

It's always possible for an enterprising journalist to ring around and find the one economist in the entire country who's willing to defend the administration's policies.

But then that gives your viewers an unrepresentative view.

So you will quote him, and then you will have me on the other side.

But the thing is, my -- what I have been describing so far, which is that economists think that these are going to be destructive, is really the representative opinion of almost every other economist in the country.

And, look, you don't have to believe me.

If he were right that tariffs are the solution, that should lead American businesses to become more profitable.

And if that were true, folks on Wall Street would be rushing to buy the stock of American businesses.

They're not.

They're selling that stock because they're really worried this is going to be even more destructive than the sorts of concerns that he has.

AMNA NAWAZ: That is Professor Justin Wolfers of the University of Michigan joining us tonight.

Professor, thank you for your time.

Really appreciate it.

JUSTIN WOLFERS: A pleasure.

GEOFF BENNETT: In the day's other headlines: President Trump says he's giving TikTok another 75 days to find an American buyer, signing an executive order to keep the popular app up and running until then.

It's the second deadline extension Mr. Trump has given Chinese firm ByteDance to sell its us TikTok operation, despite a 2024 law that was supposed to ban the app if ByteDance didn't divest.

Secretary of State Marco Rubio said it will become clear within weeks whether Russia truly intends to pursue peace with Ukraine.

Rubio spent a second day with his NATO counterparts in Brussels, where other foreign ministers from Europe also accused Russian President Vladimir Putin of dragging his feet in the ongoing cease-fire talks.

Rubio told reporters the U.S. won't allow that.

MARCO RUBIO, U.S. Secretary of State: The Russians know our position in terms of wanting to end the war, and we will know from their answers very soon whether they are serious about proceeding with real peace or whether this is a delay tactic.

If it's a delay tactic, the president's not interested in that.

If this is dragging things out, Donald Trump's not going to fall into the trap of endless negotiations about negotiations.

GEOFF BENNETT: While talks delay, Russia hasn't slowed its assault on Ukrainian cities.

Smoke rose over President Volodymyr Zelenskyy's hometown today after a Russian ballistic missile killed at least 14 people.

Ukrainian officials say six children were among the dead.

Following the strike, Zelenskyy renewed pleas to allies to increase pressure on Moscow.

A federal judge has ordered the Trump administration to return a man who was mistakenly deported to El Salvador for alleged gang ties.

Immigration officials acknowledged their error in sending Kilmar Abrego Garcia to a Salvadoran maximum security prison.

There's a 2019 court order that protected him from being deported there because he faced possible persecution by local gangs.

Still, the White House alleges Garcia is an MS-13 gang member and shouldn't be returned.

His attorneys say there is no evidence of gang ties.

South Korea's high court has removed President Yoon Suk Yeol from office four months after he declared martial law and threw that nation into turmoil.

Their decision was unanimous to uphold his impeachment, thus ending his presidency.

It ignited divided reactions across the country.

(CHEERING) GEOFF BENNETT: Thousands of Yoon's opponents cheered, some danced, after watching the court render its decision.

Others of his supporters wept at the news.

On top of Yoon's dismissal, he still faces criminal charges for inciting rebellion, which carries the death penalty or life in prison if he's convicted.

South Koreans will head to the polls within the next two months to choose a new president.

An Israeli airstrike in Lebanon overnight killed at least three people, including, Israel says, a Hamas commander.

Lebanon's prime minister said the attack was a clear violation of the November cease-fire between Israel and the Iran-backed Hezbollah militant group.

That cease-fire increasingly appears to be slipping after Israel also fired upon the Lebanese capital, Beirut, twice in just the last week.

Meantime, Israel released video today that it says shows new operations in Northern Gaza to expand its security perimeter.

It comes days after the Israeli government said it would seize large areas of land to pressure Hamas, which has seen increasing protests against its rule.

Here at home, deadly storms and flash floods continue to pummel parts of the Midwest and South today.

At least eight people have died, most from a wave of storms and tornadoes that flattened whole communities and tore buildings to shreds.

One of those killed was in Kentucky, a boy who was on his way to a school bus stop, while, in neighboring Tennessee, Nashville streets resembled rivers as the waterline crept higher toward people's homes.

And forecasters say the severe weather is not over.

This weekend, thunderstorms are poised to bring more flooding to more states, especially Arkansas, Tennessee and Kentucky.

Former President Barack Obama criticized the Trump administration for what he described as its pressure tactics against its perceived opponents.

In remarks at Hamilton College in Upstate New York, Mr. Obama addressed what he described as the Trump administration's infringement of rights from executive orders targeting major law firms to the White House cracking down on prominent universities.

He put the onus back on those institutions to act.

BARACK OBAMA, Former President of the United States: It is up to all of us to fix this.

(APPLAUSE) BARACK OBAMA: It's not going to be because somebody comes and saves you.

And now we're at one of those moments where, you know what, it's not enough just to say you're for something.

You may actually have to do something and possibly sacrifice a little bit.

GEOFF BENNETT: Mr. Obama's remarks make him the first former president to publicly rebuke Trump's second term.

And former Cardinal Theodore McCarrick has died.

Once one of the most public figures of the Catholic Church, the infamous and disgraced ex-Cardinal was defrocked in 2019 by Pope Francis after a Vatican investigation found he'd sexually molested both adults and children.

That same nearly-500-page report said that Pope John Paul II knew about the allegations against McCarrick, even as he appointed him archbishop of Washington in 2000.

The current archbishop of Washington acknowledged today in a statement that there will be enduring pain for the victims of McCarrick's sexual abuse.

Theodore McCarrick was 94 years old.

Still to come on the "News Hour": how fired federal workers are faring in the nation's job market; David Brooks and Jonathan Capehart weigh in on the week's political headlines; and a look at how changes in the NCAA are affecting March Madness.

AMNA NAWAZ: Well, it's been a tough week by many measures, but the latest jobs report came in stronger than expected with 228,000 new jobs in March.

That is well above the average monthly gain of 158,000 jobs over the last year.

And while the unemployment rate increased slightly to 4.2 percent, that was attributed in part to more people entering the job market.

But some warn that the data does not get reflect layoffs under way and that job opportunities are tightening in the white-collar sector.

As economics correspondent Paul Solman reports, that's a big worry for federal workers being cut.

PAUL SOLMAN: Today's job news was strong, says economist Gregory Daco.

GREGORY DACO, EY-Parthenon: The labor market, going into what is perhaps a massive shift in global trade dynamics, was still robust and supporting an economy that continues to grow at a moderate pace.

PAUL SOLMAN: For his part, President Trump posted on TRUTH Social: "Great job numbers, far better than expected.

It's already working.

WOMAN: I'm just going to listen here.

PAUL SOLMAN: And, indeed, jobs were added in health care, transportation and warehousing in March.

But future months?

GREGORY DACO: Tariffs, trade policy uncertainty, federal government job cuts and immigration restrictions could all weigh on the economy and push the economy towards stall speed.

PAUL SOLMAN: In fact, according to job placement firm Challenger, Gray & Christmas, the federal government cut 216,000 jobs in March.

Today's report listed only 4,000.

GREGORY DACO: A large part of that is essentially reflective of the fact that, despite the very large job cut announcements, many people did not necessarily fully lose their job.

If you have the types of job cuts that were announced figure directly into the jobs report, then essentially you would be very close to zero print in terms of job growth in the month of March.

And that is really the key fear with these DOGE cuts, is that you see significant cuts at the federal government level that feed into cuts for contractors, and that in turn feed into broader cuts for private sector activities, as well as potential state and local government cutbacks.

PAUL SOLMAN: And the president's downsizing effort has already hit home on the ground.

DANA FOSTER, Laid Off Federal Worker: It's very hard to find a job right now.

PAUL SOLMAN: Museum curator Dana Foster has been looking since losing her dual job at Jimmy Carter National Historical park and Andersonville National Historic Site in Georgia.

DANA FOSTER: Museum jobs are really competitive and they're really hard to come by.

And it's really hard to find one that pays well.

A lot of museum jobs pay in the $37,000 range.

And, unfortunately, in most cities, that's not enough to live off of by yourself.

PAUL SOLMAN: Air Force vet Monique de l'Etoile started applying after losing her budget analyst job with the Veterans Health Administration.

MONIQUE DE L'ETOILE, Laid Off Federal Worker: I'm very nervous, and I have also not really had a lot of experience with private sector jobs.

So, I mean, that's just another hurdle that we have to get through.

PAUL SOLMAN: There's been a spike in job searches nationwide ever since Elon Musk's Department of Government Efficiency started scything, says Allison Shrivastava of the online job site indeed.

ALLISON SHRIVASTAVA, Indeed: Those with agencies under DOGE review saw a 50 percent increase in applications in just a single month.

So, it's pretty remarkable.

It's not something we have seen before.

PAUL SOLMAN: Nor have the nearly 70 percent of federal workers looking for work who hold a B.A.

or above.

ALLISON SHRIVASTAVA: Very highly educated work force, primarily in white-collar work, knowledge work, entering labor market when those jobs are pretty scarce to begin with.

And so reabsorbing them into that economy is going to be pretty difficult.

PAUL SOLMAN: According to data from ADP Research, hiring is slowed more for jobs requiring a college degree than for others.

De l'Etoile is still hoping for a budget analyst position like she had at the VA, but in the meantime: MONIQUE DE L'ETOILE: Been working at a retail store in the mall called Torrid.

The store manager is a good friend of mine and so she gave me some hours to get me through this mess.

PAUL SOLMAN: For laid-off Forest Service rangers Gregg Bafundo and his girlfriend, Julie Wilson (ph), in Washington state, there are other challenges.

GREGG BAFUNDO, Laid Off Federal Worker: A lot of these federal jobs, especially in the Forest Service or Bureau of Land Management or National Park Service, are in extremely remote regions of the country that are generally really red politically and that don't have much of an economic base.

In Okanogan County, where I live, if you don't raise cattle, there's not a whole going on.

PAUL SOLMAN: Moreover, the impact of federal cuts has been felt beyond workers employed by the government.

Sarah Titus managed food security programs at nonprofit Save the Children until USAID funding was cut.

SARAH TITUS, Laid Off Nonprofit Worker: There were 200 within Save the Children alone at least, and it was all our partner agencies that we work with, Mercy Corps and CARE and World Vision and then contracting organizations.

So I just -- I went on LinkedIn, and it just was so sad and angering to see how many people were suddenly out of work, you know, my entire network.

The numbers are kind of staggering.

PAUL SOLMAN: Staggering for hiring managers too, it seems.

SARAH TITUS: It's a common phrase for them to say we're just overwhelmed with the applications.

You're up against your former colleagues.

You're up against all of USAID.

You want everybody to get a job, but you're also looking for a job.So it's just -- we have -- none of us have experienced anything like this before.

PAUL SOLMAN: Georgia museum curator Dana Foster was recently called back to her job, but assumes she will soon be let go again, and the first time was bad enough.

DANA FOSTER: I didn't even say goodbye to my co-workers.

I just kind of like left the middle of the night kind of thing.

So I want to be able to go back and finish up some things and at least leave some notes for them, so that they know where I left off and where to pick up things when we're fired again.

PAUL SOLMAN: Federal jobs, long known for stability, now perhaps the most unreliable jobs of all.

For the "PBS News Hour," Paul Solman.

GEOFF BENNETT: President Donald Trump abruptly ousted the director and deputy director of the National Security Agency, the country's powerful cyber intelligence bureau.

The Pentagon spokesman today issued a statement thanking the director for his decades of service.

The dismissals came after Laura Loomer, a right-wing activist, urged President Trump to do so.

Loomer is a self-described pro-white nationalist who has pushed a number of conspiracy theories.

Loomer appeared to confirm her involvement in a post on X, writing: "NSA Director Tim Haugh and his deputy Wendy Noble have been disloyal to President Trump.

That is why they have been fired.

Thank you, President Trump, for being receptive to the vetting materials provided to you.

And thank you for firing these Biden holdovers."

For perspective on all this, we turn now to Stewart Baker.

He's a former NSA general counsel and held a senior position in the Department of Homeland Security during the George W. Bush administration.

Mr. Baker, thanks for being with us.

STEWART BAKER, Former General Counsel, National Security Agency: It's a pleasure.

GEOFF BENNETT: So I want to start with your reaction to the firing of these intelligence officials, apparently for their perceived disloyalty, their personal disloyalty to President Trump.

The former NSA director, Tim Haugh, we should mention, is a decorated general.

He was unanimously confirmed by the Senate to hold that position.

What questions do these firings raise for you?

STEWART BAKER: Well, I am deeply skeptical of the idea that there was any disloyalty on the part of General Haugh.

I knew him.

I did not know Wendy Noble.

And he struck me as a straight shooter who was just interested in doing his job and who had done it very well.

So I think the idea that he was personally disloyal is problematic.

I have difficulty believing that.

And I suspect Laura Loomer overinterpreted the fact that he was promoted under General Milley in the last administration.

That's just the way the military works.

If you're not promoted in every administration, then you're not going to be rising to the top of any of these agencies.

GEOFF BENNETT: And the NSA is one of the government's most powerful and most critical spy agencies.

Help us understand what the director does and how having personal loyalty to any president could undermine or complicate that agency's mission.

STEWART BAKER: So, the NSA's job is to intercept communications around the world, including going into computers and stealing information from most computers.

They are responsible for the largest amount of intelligence that the president gets every day about what is going on in the world that he's not -- that people are trying to hide from him.

And so it's a vital intelligence agency.

I don't think that loyalty should come into it.

That is to say, unless you think there's some reason to believe that somebody is actively conspiring against the president, there really shouldn't be much of a call for loyalty.

GEOFF BENNETT: Could these firings and the reason for them, could this leave U.S. allies to view this country as being a less stable and less reliable partner when it comes to intelligence share?

STEWART BAKER: I'm actually not sure that that's the case.

We have political appointees at the CIA who change when the president changes.

That is not true of NSA, but I'm not sure our allies are doing a fine-grain analysis to say, oh, is this going to somehow change the basic American system?

So, I think this is just part of some of the chaos that they have seen and they have certainly been caught up in.

They will be worried, but this doesn't strike me as something that will worry them.

I'm a little more concerned that this will encourage our adversaries to say, look, there's daylight between the president and his premier intelligence collection agency.

What can we do to make him hate them more so that they will -- so he will degrade their capabilities?

And that, I think, is a worry.

We're coming up in a year on having to reauthorize the Section 702 program that is essential to our ability to catch people who are acting against the U.S. interest inside the United States, foreign governments that are influencing people inside the United States.

And if that program is not reauthorized, it will cripple many of our capabilities.

If I were a foreign adversary, I would be doubling down on, yes, the whole agency is disloyal, Mr. President, and you should cut out their capabilities by not reauthorizing the powers that they have.

GEOFF BENNETT: So, you mentioned Section 702 earlier.

For folks who are unaware, explain what that is.

STEWART BAKER: It is a program that allows us to find people in the United States who are communicating with intelligence targets, terrorists outside the United States.

It is a relatively new program, and it has to be reauthorized every few years.

That's coming up in a year.

If I were a foreign agency, I would want to find a way to make sure that didn't happen.

GEOFF BENNETT: Stewart Baker, thank you for your insights this evening.

We appreciate it.

STEWART BAKER: All right.

Great to talk to you.

AMNA NAWAZ: President Trump's sweeping new tariffs have shocked the stock market and drawn criticism from leaders on both sides of the aisle.

To discuss the political aftermath of the penalties, we turn now to the analysis of Brooks and Capehart.

That is New York Times columnist David Brooks, and Jonathan Capehart, associate editor for The Washington Post.

Great to see you both.

JONATHAN CAPEHART: Hey, Amna.

AMNA NAWAZ: So we have talked a lot about what the White House has to say about these tariffs, the economic impacts so far, how the markets are responding.

I did ask Wisconsin Republican Senator Ron Johnson about these tariffs.

He has a heavy ag state, of course, a big manufacturing state as well, after markets closed yesterday.

Here's what he had to say.

SEN. RON JOHNSON (R-WI): This was a bold, but risky action the president has taken.

I, for one hope, he is correct.

I want him to succeed.

I want the American consumers to succeed.

I want Wisconsin manufacturers and farmers to succeed.

AMNA NAWAZ: David, bold, but risky.

Is it worth the risk?

DAVID BROOKS: In current Republican talk, that is full retreat.

DAVID BROOKS: I hope he succeeds in this crazy idea of his.

Yes, I think this is going to be -- well, A, I think it's literally the dumbest domestic policy of my lifetime.

The most -- of all the policies, they usually have some plausible argument.

A group of experts say, yes, this could work.

You really don't see that this time, with the confection of a few Trumpy -- I also think it's going to be a turning point for the Trump administration.

You can cut foreign aid, and voters don't really notice.

You can gut the Department of Education or whatever, and voters shrug.

But if you mess with their prices, add $4,000 to the price of a car, if you're an electrician and you have got all these contracts, big contracts out, you have now got to go back to the people you signed the contract with and try to renegotiate, because all your supplies costs are going up.

So it's -- the inflation rate, some economists think it's 3 to 5 percent.

It'll add -- that would put us up to 8, and then the disruption, the increased risk of a recession.

So people will definitely notice that, and they will absolutely take it out on the Trump administration.

AMNA NAWAZ: Jonathan, we have seen what the White House has said, right?

They're putting out statements of support.

They're standing firm.

They're saying we're not going to shift on this.

The president seems pretty relaxed.

The day after the stock said the worst drops since 2020, in the middle of the pandemic, the president woke up in Florida and went golfing.

Do you see them changing course on this?

JONATHAN CAPEHART: At least not yet.

We have now seen two four-digit drops in the stock market, and it hasn't changed the president's course at all.

And it's not just going to be the sticker shock in prices.

We're talking things maybe even more immediate for the American people, 401(k)s. The number of people who might have been counting on retiring in six months or a year, that's been upended.

People saving for their kids college years, other things that people were saving money for completely wiped out in just two days over what David -- I agree with David, the single dumbest domestic policy move I have ever seen.

And it doesn't seem to make any sense.

It makes no sense to the layperson.

It makes no sense to Wall Street experts.

And so if he's going to change course, it's going to require his Wall Street supporters plus members of Congress going to him and saying, Mr. President, we can -- this cannot continue.

You have to change course.

AMNA NAWAZ: We did start to see some fissures on this, right, David?

You saw some Republicans, four, in fact, Senators McConnell, Collins, Murkowski, and Tillis, vote with Democrats on a bill that would have allowed them to block tariffs on Canada.

So it passed the Senate.

It won't pass the House, so it's toothless to some degree.

We also saw a new bipartisan bill from Chuck Grassley and Senator Cantwell that would require the president to notify Congress within 48 hours of any new tariffs, trying to claw back some of that authority.

Does - - what does all of that say to you right now?

DAVID BROOKS: Well, I think it's too soon to tell whether the Republicans will really cave.

They only go against Trump if the political logic is in that favor.

We have learned that.

It won't be out of principle.

But -- and, right now, the political logic is still not in that favor.

You saw that Ron Johnson answer.

But say voters do get mad and Trump's approvals go down to -- where they are now, like 45, 43, down to 35, 33.

Then suddenly the political logic changes.

And when you see strong leaders fail, it's because of their own mistakes that then shift the political momentum.

And I hope -- Republicans are Americans.

And we love pluralism.

Trade isn't just about goods.

It's about the exchange of people.

It's about the exchange of ideas.

All dynamic societies are open societies, are crossroads societies.

And America used to be the ultimate crossroads society.

And this is changing all that.

And I hope there are some Republicans who, like, remember what they believed 10 years ago.

AMNA NAWAZ: How do you look at that, Jonathan?

JONATHAN CAPEHART: I mean, I think the Republican Party has given up on the exchange of peoples.

Just look at the president's immigration policies.

He has cut us off from our allies.

He has cut us off financially.

He has sealed the border from anybody who wants to come here, but, at the same time, deporting people who have been here from undocumented to green card holders to flat-out American citizens to El Salvadoran jails.

I look at what -- the big fight that is now starting, and that's over the reconciliation bill.

And I think that's the next shoe to drop on Republicans, because how are they going to finance making the Trump tax cuts permanent?

And the way they're going to do that is on the backs of the American people, going after Medicaid, Medicare and Social Security, earned benefits that people have paid in to their entire working lives.

And that's how they're going to pay for this.

And folks haven't, -- they're not focused on that just yet, but they will, because I think vote-a-Ramaswamy is happening tonight in the Senate, and it will get out and it will pass, and then it'll go to the House.

And then people will start to pay attention to, not only has the president's tariff policy shriveled up 401(k)s and skyrocketed prices, but also this next thing.

They're going to take other money away from us in order to finance tax cuts for his billionaire friends.

AMNA NAWAZ: You have both referenced sort of the bigger picture here about America on the world stage.

And, David, there's this idea that the entire globalized economy that was built up after World War II, I mean, the U.S. was at the center of it.

Now that the U.S. has sort of removed herself from that, is that era of globalization over?

DAVID BROOKS: For the time being.

I mean, it -- well, I should say globalization is still going to be here.

People need trade.

China needs trade.

Europe needs trade.

Latin America needs trade.

They're just going to circuit around the U.S. And so I have heard some Europeans today say, it's just like rewiring.

We used to have all these wires across The Atlantic, Europe, and the U.S., and we're going to trade.

Now we will just go to Latin America.

We will go around you.

We will go to China.

So globalization will still be around.

It just won't include us as much.

AMNA NAWAZ: Jonathan, there's a moment here in which we're seeing Democrats message on some of this, right?

We saw that bill that was to block tariffs on Canada that was led by Senator Tim Kaine.

We saw Senator Cory Booker take to the Senate floor in a record-breaking speech that he said, his office said, inspired thousands of people to call into his office.

You had hundreds of millions of people liking and commenting online.

And we also now have more than 1,000 planned protests coming up this weekend against President Trump in cities across the country.

Is there a momentum shift?

What's going on here with Democrats?

JONATHAN CAPEHART: Well, there is a momentum shift simply because everything we have seen come out of this administration is just moving people from apathy and complacency up and out into the streets, particularly with these demonstrations around the country tomorrow.

I think with Senator Booker -- what was so inspiring about what he did, one, it seemed to come from out of nowhere.

It seemed to -- it seemed to -- it was genuine, 25 hours and four minutes without any breaks.

The other thing is, I think two weeks ago, or maybe even three weeks ago, we were here when you were talking about the fight, Democrats need to fight.

And I was trying to articulate what that meant, really what Democrats wanted, even though they knew they would not succeed.

What Senator Booker did, that's exactly what they wanted him to do.

That - - they wanted someone in an elected position, someone of some stature, to stand up and say, explain what was going on, to give voice to what they were feeling about what was happening to their country, about who was doing it, about what we need to do to remind ourselves of who we are as a country.

And I think that's why Senator Booker's speech, his filibuster resonated so much.

Millions of people -- it was 350 million people liked it, I believe it was on -- on TikTok.

That's what people are going for.

And I think what Senator Booker has done, I think, has given people sort of the rhetorical armor they need for marches that are going to be happening around the country tomorrow, but going forward, because what we have seen this week is just one more horrible week on top of, what, 10 horrible weeks, if you care about this country.

AMNA NAWAZ: David, got about 30 seconds left.

I will give you the final word here.

DAVID BROOKS: Yes, well, I didn't like that fight word, because I think -- I have tried to say that it's about persuasion.

AMNA NAWAZ: Right.

DAVID BROOKS: And so you should try to persuade.

And so what Cory Booker did was try to persuade.

It was 25 hours of rhetoric on making a case for a thing.

And so I thought that was good.

The second final, quick thing about Cory Booker is, if Donald Trump is going to be all about gloom and carnage and threat, Cory Booker is about upbeat.

AMNA NAWAZ: Yes.

DAVID BROOKS: And that's a good -- good way to counter the vibe of Donald Trump.

AMNA NAWAZ: David Brooks, Jonathan Capehart, always great to see you both.

Thank you so much.

JONATHAN CAPEHART: Thanks, Amna.

GEOFF BENNETT: The John F. Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts in Washington, D.C., is one of the nation's premier performing art centers, holding some 2,000 events for some two million arts goers each year.

It's an unusual public-private partnership, with most funding raised privately, but some coming from the federal government.

And it's traditionally been a bipartisan institution, with presidents adding their choices for members of the Kennedy Center board.

Now it's at a crossroads.

Senior arts correspondent Jeffrey Brown reports from the Kennedy Center for our arts and culture series, Canvas.

JEFFREY BROWN: A spectacular sky painting over the Kennedy Center by Chinese artist Cai Guo-Qiang for the opening of the Earth to Space Festival, a three-week event exploring the intersection of arts, science and technology.

There were installations such as this 22-foot space man by artist Brendan Murphy.

BRENDAN MURPHY, Artist: It's about embracing the unknown, problem-solving.

JEFFREY BROWN: And a wall of quilt blocks conceived by an actual astronaut, Karen Nyberg, the first to quilt while in space.

KAREN NYBERG, Former NASA Astronaut: Usually, on Earth, I sew with a machine, so the hand-sewing part was a little bit of a .

ALICIA ADAMS, Vice President for International Programming, Kennedy Center: Artists have always been piqued by nature.

JEFFREY BROWN: As vice president for international programming, Alicia Adams has put on many of these festivals.

ALICIA ADAMS: I think we are unique, and I think we are the only performing arts center in America that can do work that is this big.

JEFFREY BROWN: But a week earlier, as captured in news reports, there were jokes and jabs during one of the Kennedy Center's signature annual events, the Mark Twain Prize for American Humor, given this year to Conan O'Brien.

STEPHEN COLBERT, Host, "The Late Show With Stephen Colbert": Today, they announced two board members, Bashar al-Assad and Skeletor.

DONALD TRUMP, President of the United States: We're going to fix it, make it beautiful.

JEFFREY BROWN: It's been a stunning two months that have rocked the institution and the wider arts world, as President Trump purged the center's traditionally bipartisan board of directors of its Biden era appointees, named new members, including country music singer Lee Greenwood, FOX News hosts Maria Bartiromo and Laura Ingraham, and replaced chairman David Rubenstein, a financier and philanthropist, with himself, the first time a president has taken that role in the center's 54-year history.

Also out, Deborah Rutter, a respected arts administrator who led the center for more than a decade.

She spoke on NPR just days after her firing.

DEBORAH RUTTER, Former President, The Kennedy Center: How will we be able to sustain what we have done to really throw open the doors and make sure that the Kennedy Center is not just welcoming everybody, but seeing themselves and hearing their stories on our stages?

JEFFREY BROWN: Taking her place as interim president, Richard Grenell, a diplomat and Trump loyalist who served in the first Trump administration.

Grenell did not respond to requests for a "News Hour" interview.

PAOLO ZAMPOLLI, Member, Kennedy Center Board of Trustees: Instead of complaining, just sit and wait, and you will be impressed to say, thank you, Mr. President.

JEFFREY BROWN: But we did talk with Paolo Zampolli, an Italian-born longtime friend of the president appointed by him to the Kennedy Center board in 2020.

Zampolli, a businessman, says he wants to make the Kennedy Center a more exciting destination, an American jewel, like La Scala in his native Milan, adding such features as a ferry landing on the Potomac and an academy of arts on nearby Roosevelt Island.

He supports the overhaul of the board.

PAOLO ZAMPOLLI: They were very hostile with the Trumps and the MAGA and all his appointees.

So, those people, we had no way possible to work together.

That's why this is the president who made this decision, and I think it's very wise.

We make the center great again.

JEFFREY BROWN: President Trump has referred critically to what he calls woke programming, and said: "We didn't like what they were showing."

On his TRUTH Social, he wrote: "Just last year, the Kennedy Center featured drag shows specifically targeting our youth.

This will stop."

The center has presented drag events, a tiny percentage of its annual programming.

In fact, the Kennedy Center, with constituent organizations, including the National Symphony Orchestra and the Washington National Opera, has regularly presented the world's leading artists for decades.

Its Millennium Stage offers free performances daily by local, national and international artists.

In 2019, it expanded its campus and offerings with the opening of The REACH, a series of performance and rehearsal spaces.

But now some prominent artists are staying away.

Immediately following President Trump's moves, Kennedy Center artistic advisers Renee Fleming and Ben Folds resigned from their positions.

TV producer Shonda Rhimes, appointed by President Obama, abruptly left her position as treasurer.

Performers, including actress-comedian Issa Rae and musician Rhiannon Giddens, canceled upcoming shows.

And the hit production "Hamilton," which was previously played at the Kennedy Center, announced it would not return as planned in 2026.

"Hamilton" producer Jeffrey Seller posted: "The recent purge flies in the face of everything this national center represents."

At his recent trip to the center, President Trump responded to the "Hamilton" announcement.

DONALD TRUMP: I never liked "Hamilton" very much, and I never liked it, but we are going to have some really good shows.

JEFFREY BROWN: In Philadelphia recently, we met Adam Weiner, front man for the rock band Low Cut Connie, who canceled his participation in a Kennedy Center series called Social Impact.

ADAM WEINER, Musician: I would be sending a message to my fans that, A, I am some extension of his regime or, worse, that I don't care.

JEFFREY BROWN: The new leadership has now dismantled the center's Social Impact team with its stated effort to advance justice and equity, laying off its director and others.

For his part, Paolo Zampolli call fears that President Trump will overhaul programming: PAOLO ZAMPOLLI: Confusion and fake news.

The president is asking everybody what they want, and it is that the people who are making jokes, it's going to be like a propaganda of the president, the music the president loves.

No, no, no, no.

PHILIP KENNICOTT, The Washington Post: Things that were unthinkable a month ago, two weeks ago, a year ago, are happening faster in many ways than we can keep track of them.

JEFFREY BROWN: But many are very worried, including Philip Kennicott, Pulitzer Prize-winning art and architecture critic for The Washington Post.

He points to the recent announcement that producers of an opera titled "Fellow Travelers," featuring two gay protagonists, have withdrawn from the 2026 schedule, citing what they called the takeover of the Kennedy Center and policies that contradict the values of their opera.

PHILIP KENNICOTT: Censorship isn't simply saying, no, you may not come here, no, you may not say that.

It's about not inviting people to contribute.

It's about people self-censoring.

JEFFREY BROWN: Now you're using a big word here, censorship.

PHILIP KENNICOTT: I do think it is already happening.

The Kennedy Center has created an environment, the current leadership, in which the producers of "Hamilton" feel they don't want to be associated with that.

I think the example set at the Kennedy Center will have a chilling effect on other organizations all across the country.

JEFFREY BROWN: One major test will be the Kennedy Center Honors, the institution's most prestigious annual event, which since 1978 has included a who's-who of artistic stars from all walks of American and international culture.

Presidents traditionally attend, but, in his first term, Donald Trump did not.

In an audio recording at his recent board meeting leaked to The New York Times and Washington Post, he floated names including Paul Anka, Sylvester Stallone, Johnny Mathis, and Andrea Bocelli, and though the honors have not been given posthumously and have always been limited to artistic fields, Elvis Presley and Babe Ruth.

The president also said he himself might serve as host of the honors.

JEFFREY BROWN: At a recent concert by the National Symphony, some booed when Vice President J.D.

Vance took his seat.

And as shown in news reports, Conan O'Brien drew a standing ovation when he lauded Kennedy Center employees.

CONAN O'BRIEN, Former Host, "Late Night With Conan O'Brien": My eternal thanks for their selfless devotion to the arts.

JEFFREY BROWN: At the same time, though, the show does go on, including the big Earth to Space Festival, which in its three weeks will feature scores of performances.

ALICIA ADAMS: I think of these festivals as being knowledge festivals, a place.

It gives people an opportunity not to just have a great time and be entertained, but to also learn something.

And that's something that's been very important to me.

And I'm still here trying to do this work.

JEFFREY BROWN: For the "PBS News Hour," I'm Jeffrey Brown at the John F. Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts in Washington, D.C. AMNA NAWAZ: The NCAA women's Final Four tips off tonight in Tampa, with the men's last game starting tomorrow in San Antonio.

William Brangham has a look now at the ways in which the games are shifting -- William.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Amna, this year's tournaments are unique in part because they feature a large number of players who previously played for a different school.

That's thanks to big rule changes in the NCAA that let athletes easily move between schools.

So to help break all this down and explain the broader impact on college sports, we are joined by Jesse Dougherty.

He's a reporter at The Washington Post who covers the business of sports.

Jesse, thank you so much for being here.

Help us understand the big changes that are under way now with athletes able to enter what is called the so-called transfer portal, which allows them to toggle between schools.

How is that impacting the game and more specifically this tournament?

JESSE DOUGHERTY, The Washington Post: Yes, the reasons for it are really twofold.

On one side, there's the transfer portal piece, and then very, very interconnected, there's name, image, and likeness money, which we more colloquially refer to as NIL.

So about three, four years ago, the NCAA started to loosen transfer rules.

At the same time, they allowed athletes to start monetizing their name, image, and likeness, effectively get paid, whether by brands or boosters.

And what happened is that basically, annually, athletes started switching schools, because now the NCAA have far fewer restrictions on needing to sit out or needing to sort of spend time away from the game when you did switch programs, and, at the same time, being able to make that NIL money, programs started bidding on these players, sort of like free agents in professional sports.

So that's all culminated in an era of extreme player movement, which has affected both the men's and women's brackets.

On the men's side, for example, more than half the players in this year's 68-team tournament field had played for a previous D1 team before this season.

And it's just an astounding number.

So, really, I mean, for the fans, it's just -- it's hard to follow the arc of players and teams like you maybe once did because players are so often switching schools, going somewhere else, finding more playing time, finding a better fit, making more money in a lot of cases.

And it's just -- it's created a sort of transactional nature of the sport.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: If it has created that somewhat, as some argue, a Wild West atmosphere, what is the rationale for this -- for the portal that allows this jumping back and forth?

JESSE DOUGHERTY: Yes, the rationale is that anyone can change jobs this frequently.

I mean, you and I could change companies once a year.

We probably wouldn't want to do that.

But the reality here is that the market has decided that these athletes are worth a lot of money.

And for decades, they were not able to make that money.

It was -- it was, frankly, suppressed by NCAA rules.

And now seeing that this market has responded to say, you're worth $400,000, $600,000, over a million every year, these athletes are never more valuable.

They're never more able to monetize on that talent than when they're available.

So that sort of created this transfer portal.

So the rationale is more of a free market argument.

There's not really one that sort of, I think, is conducive to upping fan interest or necessarily promoting that sort of academic path through college.

But in terms of just sort of how professional sports operate, in this case, it's about a free market as any.

I mean, NFL, NBA, MLB players, they all need to stay on teams for multiple years, if not sometimes close to a decade in some cases.

And these college players have really had free rein just to move as much as possible.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: I mean, I have got to imagine, if I were a coach of a team, that this has got to be a complicated thing, knowing that somebody who I had trained and brought up and thought, OK, you're a sophomore now, you're going to be great your junior and senior years, now that person could be gone.

I mean, how are coaches responding to this?

JESSE DOUGHERTY: Some prominent ones have retired and cited this as a reason, not the sole reason, but Tony Bennett at Virginia, Jay Wright at Villanova, Jim Larranaga at Miami this year mid-season just saying they can't quite get into this new era.

They can't meet the demands that we need to do on top of coaching.

I mean, now you're sort of an around-the-clock fund-raiser, negotiator, the G.M.

in a lot of cases.

So, coaches are having trouble in some schools in instances of adapting.

Others who are older, whether it's Rick Pitino, some others are adapting well and sort of taking to the new era and using a lot of the tools and new ways to roster build and just leaning in, so to speak.

So, there's a range of reactions.

I mean, there's some like Tom Izzo at Michigan State who didn't really use the transfer portal for this year's roster.

And he had -- went all the way to the Elite Eight, one win from the Final Four.

So there's not really one way to do this.

There's -- frankly, there's thousands probably if you broke down all the different permutations to build a roster, but the coaching community certainly would like more structure.

I don't think they prefer to have the transfer portal open during the tournament and spend this time of the year, when they just finished up a whole season recruiting a whole new roster, worrying about retaining their players.

I mean, it certainly added a lot more layers to the process.

And I think coaching in a lot of ways is not what these guys are used to or what they initially signed up for.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Right.

In the last 30 seconds or so we have, are there efforts to regulate this?

I know there's a big hearing next week.

Can you just briefly describe what's going on there?

JESSE DOUGHERTY: Yes, starting this summer, schools will be able to -- will likely be able to directly pay athletes for the first time.

To this point, it's really only been boosters and brands.

So with that, there will come a salary cap if that does happen.

A major legal settlement has to happen first, but that would provide some regulation, some spending guidelines.

The NCAA hopes to limit booster spending in the future.

It remains to be seen if that will all be successful, but there are certainly efforts under way to try to bring some regulation and structure to this industry.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: All right, Jesse Dougherty of The Washington Post, thank you so much for joining us.

JESSE DOUGHERTY: Thank you for having me.

GEOFF BENNETT: Be sure to watch "Washington Week With The Atlantic" tonight here on PBS.

Moderator Jeffrey Goldberg and his panel discuss President Trump's sweeping tariffs and the fallout for the U.S. and international economies.

AMNA NAWAZ: And on "PBS News Weekend": how 200-year-old logbooks from whaling ships are providing new clues about climate change.

And that is the "News Hour" for tonight.

I'm Amna Nawaz.

GEOFF BENNETT: And I'm Geoff Bennett.

For all of us here at the "PBS News Hour," thanks for spending part of your evening with us, and have a great weekend.