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Doni: Should parents be held responsible for the behavior of their children?

What about that 13 year old who just won't listen to you no matter what you say?

When should we start teaching children that ultimately they are the ones who must make those decisions that will impact their lives for the rest of their lives?

There's no lack of conversation about this issue, and the opinions are many and varied.

But while some are talking Shawn Malone and his program, the young men and Women for Change Behavior Modification Program is about the business of helping both parents and their children.

Teaching our children to be responsible for their behavior.

That's our discussion today.

On to the point.

Connect with us on our social media pages.

You may email me.

But you know this at doni _miller@wgte.org, for this episode and any others that you'd like to see, please go to wgte.org/To the point, we've got a really interesting topic today.

There's lots of discussion out there about children and who is really responsible for their behavior and should parents be held accountable for their kids behavior?

And when do we start to teach kids about being responsible for their own behavior?

All of us know that there are those cases when you've got that 13 year old that you've tried your darndest with and they just won't listen to you.

Well, we have a program here in town that is designed to help parents and kids on that very difficult journey from from childhood to adulthood.

I'd like to introduce to you those of you who don't know.

Sean Malone, thank you so much for being with us.

Thank you.

Thank you.

You have this amazing program.

Amazing program.

It's been around you and I've known each other for two decades.

Shawn: That is.

Correct.

Doni: And you have been working on this program your entire life.

Practically.

Shawn: I have 17 and a half years.

Doni: Long time.

Shawn: Long time.

Doni: Long time.

So I want to ask you something that I hear questioned all the time.

Our kids are different today.

Shawn: Children are very different today.

Doni: How are they different?

Shawn: It's a lot different from when we were when we were growing up.

There was an accountability in our neighborhood.

There was there was a village in our neighborhood where we were held accountable for our actions.

Doni: By everyone.

Shawn: By everyone, by everyone.

But those days are long gone.

And so we're now dealing with a new wave of children that don't understand accountability or responsibility.

So it makes things very difficult.

Doni: Your program I like to use the name Boot Camp for kids.

I know, though, that it's that needs some explaining.

So why don't you tell folks exactly what your program does?

Shawn: So we are young men and women for change, Change Academy.

And what we are we are a behavior modification boot camp program.

The boot stands for behavior, obedience, observation, or training.

The camp stands for Community Adolescent Modification Program.

It's a program designed helping youth, both male and female, ages 5 to 17, youth that are just simply making unhealthy choices in life.

So we're talking about the youth as being disrespectful, disobedient, defiant, unruly, those who are lying, stealing, cheating, getting in trouble in school, getting suspended, getting kicked out, and even the youth that's been diagnosed with ADHD and O.D.. And this is a program where we simply take the youth, we break them down, we build them back up.

So what do we mean by breaking them down?

Doni: That was going to be my question.

Shawn: Just simply stripping them from everything that's negative began to build them back up by putting positive reinforcement in their life to help them become productive leaders.

Doni: So tell me what that means, stripping them of everything that's negative.

Shawn: So what we have to do is we have to allow the child to understand that you're here in this program because you're making unhealthy choices in life.

So it's time for us to rewind and help you understand some of the choices actually we're making that were very unhealthy choices and begin to start pulling those things away from them and putting them in a position of leadership.

Discipline is structure to help them understand why they should be making the right choices in life.

Doni: You know, one of the things that that seems obvious to me and I might be really wrong and I will certainly defer to your expertise on this issue is that when we lost that village that you and I both know so well, that village that, you know, the neighbors kept you in line, Your I remember in my neighborhood that the neighbors would spank us truth and then go tell our parents who would spank us again.

Right.

So I don't know that I'm advocating for neighbors to spank kids.

So I don't think I'm saying that.

I'm just saying, though, that everybody was watching and everybody was invested in you.

Do you see that not being the case anymore?

Shawn: That is not the case anymore, because unfortunately, we live in a society where parents are very overprotective of their children.

They don't want anyone to discipline their child.

They don't even want you to chastise their child because they're so busy calling their parent their child that they just you know, it's a losing battle.

It's a losing battle at the end of the day.

And so we have to think of ways on how can we not reinvent the wheel but add a little oil to it and begin to move forward for that process.

Doni: So what do parents need to know about what happens when they coddle their children and when they protect their children?

What message are they sending to their kids?

Shawn: Well, what they're sending to their child is their behavior is okay in spite of what you're doing and how you're doing, it is going to be okay.

But it's not okay when you continue to keep doing the same thing and getting the same results.

And it gets to a point where parents are just they get furious.

They're upset.

And I have to ask because we do a parent accountability program within our organization.

And that's one of the things that we talk about.

What our parents you're no means no and you have to stick to that.

But then the parent kind of feels sorry for the child and give them back their tablet or give them back their phone or give them back their TV or video game because the parent don't want to go back and forth.

But in my home where I raised my son from the time he was two until he was 18, I used to tell him I paid a cost to be the boss.

You will follow the rules and if you don't follow the rules, there will be consequences.

So I'm telling parents it is okay to be firm, to be fair, but also stay consistent.

Doni: With They want to be friends.

Shawn: They want to be they want to be friends.

They do.

Doni: It's easier when your friend.

Shawn: Right?

And you can't be friends with your child.

You have to understand you are their parent.

You're not their friend.

And I think because of everything that's going on in society, you know, parents are now not able to chastise their children or whatnot.

You know, you have, you know, CSB, CSB, that will come knocking on your door because you did, you know, spank your child.

And that's some of the things that are being investigated.

But it's unfair because parents are at a loss and they don't know what else to do.

Doni: You know, that's a really good point because, again, we seems we seem to have moved as a culture from a time when parents were given responsibility for raising their children to a time when someone else almost sets the rules for you.

Shawn: Correct.

Correct.

I think from the time we were growing up, my mom had me when she was 14 years old.

So you know, even to this day, my mom has a level of expectation and I don't follow that that level of expectation.

There's going to be consequences for me.

You know.

Doni: I know that story and I. Shawn: Have a great and I have a great respect for my elders, too, because that, you know, those were two elders that looked out for us.

They were the village, you know.

But now the torch is being passed.

So I believe our generation now should be able to take that torch and come back with the village mentality, but come back with a way where we're able to heal in our community, heal in our homes, heal in our schools, heal in our churches, and be able to move forward.

Doni: So kids, come into your program and I read two stories in preparation for talking to you today about your program, and that were amazing.

One had to do with a young girl who's now doing quite well in a local high school or private school.

Her mom was at her wit's end, brought her to you.

Another had to do with a young man whose mom simply thought that he needed a male, some male influence, and there wasn't any happening in his house.

Both just brought their kids to you.

Mm hmm.

Shawn: Right.

Yep.

So we for the past 13 years, we have successfully been doing a program called Dose of Reality.

A lot of people like to tag it with the words scare story, but we're not a scare story program.

But we are adults to reality program.

And that program is where youth and parents, they come to us on a Friday night at 8 p.m. We do extra parents to stay for a two hour parent accountability program.

And then the children are with us until 5 a.m. Saturday morning.

That program by itself, we've had over a thousand plus youth and parents that have been through the program.

Only 233 children have been back.

Parents literally come from all over the United States to Toledo to get the help that they need.

And so it's a very much needed program.

We are really pushing hard in the city of Toledo.

For the past 17 and a half years, we've really been pushing to really expand the program, to create economic development, to create jobs and opportunity to develop solid partnerships that we are now partner with the Lucas Metropolitan Policy Housing Authority.

And then we're also partner with Toledo Public Schools, where we are now in the district, helping reduce out of school suspension by 95%.

Doni: And those kids are instead of being suspended, they're being referred to you, correct?

Shawn: Absolutely.

So in lieu of suspending kids out of school, they have a choice.

They can either come to our dose of reality program or if you get looking at a three or five day suspension instead of going home, we now have in place where they can actually do their suspension and school for those days.

So they're not out in the streets doing mischievous things.

And then they're also able to still do their work, get caught up on their work, bring their grades up, and then get back into the classroom.

Doni: So I want to ask you something.

So you have a parent and I am a firm believer that 99.9% of the parents on the planet really, really love their kids.

And they are trying very hard to do the right thing for those for the for for their child.

But this parenting stuff is tough.

It's really, really hard.

All kinds of influences.

Social media brings a kind of presence that no one expected and a kind of influence in a child's life that no one expects.

What do you say to that mom or that dad who feels absolutely powerless in getting that child to understand the consequences of their behavior.

Shawn: Was as an organization, will we like to do?

We like to build healthy relationships, building those healthy relationships not only with the parents, but also with those children, and giving the parents the opportunity to be able to know they're part of a team.

Now, we're not going to do your job for you, but we're going to stand with you and we're going to help you and give you the tools that you need.

We're going to give you the coping skills that you need to be a better parent or to change the way that you are parenting.

And that's the most important thing.

Doni: That I want you to hold that thought.

Okay, we're going to go away for a minute.

We're going to come right back.

Please come back with us in just a moment.

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Doni: Welcome back.

As always, you can connect with us on our social media pages, and I'd really like it if you would email me at doni _miller@wgte.org.

And as you know for this episode and any other that you'd like to revisit, just go to wgte.org/to the point.

We are talking to Shawn Malone, who is running one of the most innovative and effective parenting and children programs designed to teach both parents and kids about the the impact of responsibility and consequences and owning your behavior.

I get it right.

Shawn: You got it right.

All right.

Doni: So I want to talk a minute about your involvement in the juvenile justice system.

But before we get to that, I'd like to revisit the point that we were talking about when we went to break.

Okay.

And that is the fear that parents have of parenting.

What, in in in 30 seconds, what would you say to them to help them move on to the next step of really being an effective parent.

Shawn: To be effective parent, first thing you need to understand is behavior modification.

Outside of behavior modification, you need to understand behavior health, because what you get with behavior modification is you get the accountability piece that's going to give your child and the parent the tools that they need to be firm, fair and consistent for the children to understand discipline and structure and why it's important for them to make the right choices.

And then for the behavioral health side, to make sure that the family, the child can get effective case management therapy, psychotherapy, counseling and whatnot.

Doni: Yeah.

Have you ever met anybody that's smarter and more conniving than a 12 year old who wants what they want?

Shawn: Let's talk about an eight year old now.

Doni: Oh, my gosh.

Shawn: Yeah.

Let's talk about eight year olds.

I had a case where there was already a eight year old stealing cars and getting caught with vape pens in school.

No kidding.

Yeah.

Eight years old.

Eight years.

That's what we're dealing with.

So we're dealing with that because there's a lack of accountability coming from sometimes, is there?

Lack of accountability is coming from our school system because they're so quick to push our children out the door and suspend them where there's there's no accountability, there's no consequences.

And there were also dealing with the juvenile court where with the juvenile court, parents are crying out for help.

You know, children are being arrested.

They being taken down to the juvenile court.

30 minutes to an hour later, a parent has to go and pick their child up.

And no one's no one saying anything about that, which is unfair.

And I had an incident that happened the other day whether Toledo police was called on one of the children that I was working with and the police officers, that's a little police.

They are just tired of taking children downtown where there's no accountability.

And so for the past 17 and a half years, the doors have been shut on me only because we call our program a boot camp program.

But through our senses and 17 and a half years, this is the program that people are looking for.

We said earlier that people are coming from all across the country to Toledo to get the help that they need.

This is why we need a program called Operation Accountability, Operation Accountable.

It is when you really truly hold those in the community accountable and allowing them to go through some type, of course, to help them understand if you continue to go down this road, three things is guaranteed to happen.

That's prison yard, graveyard and homelessness.

So we are now seeing a trend of teenagers from the age of 18 and under.

That's you know, that's half of our homicides here in the city of Toledo.

Right.

Doni: Right.

And an eight year old who's stealing cars and carrying vape pens is clearly a child who's asking for help.

Shawn: Absolutely.

Doni: Is there a safety net system that surrounds these families?

Shawn: There is.

Zeph is very good self centers, very good on having a program called Safety Net.

But as an organization, what we've been pushing for for the past 17 and a half years is to have a facility where we're able to house kids for 30, 60, 90, up to 120 days.

If we can take the child out of their environment, take them through the whole break down process and build them back up, send a team of people to go in and work with those families.

We're going to be able to close the gap of brokenness in our communities, to close the gap of brokenness within our homes.

So that's that's our main key.

Doni: But it seems to me that the focus is on the parents, that consistency and in talking about consequences and and consistency in their behavior has to start when that child is very young.

Shawn: Absolutely.

At the age of five.

So we actually take you from the age of five up to 17.

And so we can modify the behavior of a five year old.

Then at five, we get six or seven.

He's not getting suspended from school.

He understands that there's going to be a consequence.

So if you don't clean up your room, you don't get to play with your toys today.

If you don't take help, mom, take out the trash, there's going to be a consequence if you plant that seed.

Now, there's good things to come down the road.

Doni: And how how does that child learn to balance the importance of understanding the consequence with the with the best friend who's in, you know, in the community trying to pull them away and trying to get them to do the wrong thing.

Shawn: So there needs to be more mentoring programs so we can get more mentors, more to step to the table, come to the table, and they can bring their expertise as well.

But I believe that if we can just wrap our arms around these children and begin to love and care on them, we begin to build those healthy relationships.

Doni: And normalize this behavior, not normalize the criminal behavior.

Not that doesn't have to be okay.

No, it doesn't.

Even if your neighborhood is saturated with it, that doesn't have to be the role model that you allow to happen.

Is that right?

Shawn: That is correct.

That is correct.

Myself, I'm born and raised in the inner city of Toledo, and I had to overcome and succumb a lot of things happened in my neighborhood.

Crack cocaine was dropped in my neighborhood when I was growing up.

And I had a choice to make.

Either I was going to sell it or use it.

But I love the game of basketball and basketball and the girls and Boys Club is what saved my life.

Doni: So when you talk about it, stripping the kids of all those negative things, how do you begin to reintroduce them into equally satisfying positive?

Shawn: You have to be able to speak life into them and you have to help them understand that you believe in them when they don't even know there's greatness inside of them.

But if you continue to speak life into them.

Doni: What does that mean to.

Shawn: Me?

Speaking life into an individual is helping them understand that out of the belly to flow rivers of living water.

If you continue to tell a kid every child every day that you're going to be great in life, you're going to be successful in life.

If you tell a child, if you find a child is is hungry and you're feeding that child and you're showing a child attention, it turns.

And we've had a lot of success stories by being consistent.

The key word is consistency.

So we can continue to be consistent and continue to move in the direction we're going.

This can be a great program, could be a great program for Toledo, Ohio.

Doni: You know, this this whole idea of kids having this Leave It to Beaver life style just like isn't the reality of most children in this country, especially when you consider the impact, the impact of things like bullying?

How do you take a child who feels like they aren't worth anything?

Is speaking life into them when they feel like they're they're nothing and they go to school and they're bullied all the time and you're saying to them, You're better than that.

You're better than they are.

Don't listen to that.

Is that speaking.

Shawn: So that speaking life into a child and then also, again, using the word consistency.

So I'll give you a quick example.

In the five schools that we're in, what Toledo Public schools, when those type of children are having an issue or problem, we give them a safe place to calm so they can talk, so they can get what they need.

Their children are coming to school sometimes, you know, the clothes are dirty and they're loading bags and things like that.

But if you start to just show a child every day speaking life into them is showing them that you love and care for them, that you're here for them, They're not a price tag.

You know, this is not about money or anything like this.

This is about genuinely caring for our children.

Doni: So you know that that old that phrase that we hear all the time, it takes a village.

It takes a village.

Takes a village, right?

It does.

So how do you convince people that they have a responsibility to help in raising somebody else's child?

Shawn: So, again, we got to hold parents accountable.

Parents have to understand their place and what it's going to take.

I get it.

Mom works two or three jobs.

There is no father in the home.

I get there's a lot going on.

But we have to be able to extend the olive branch somehow, someway and not allow that bridge to be broken where we're not getting the successes that we need.

Doni: You know, we we make the school system responsible for an awful lot of things that I think they're not prepared to be responsible for.

But clearly they have a role in this.

What do you think that role is?

Shawn: That role is we have to hold parents accountable.

A lot of parents are not coming to the schools when their children are acting out.

Parents come up with excuses and there has to be a strategic plan put in place.

What we are doing with TPS is that, you know, we are making parents come to school.

You're going to have a meeting and we need to kind of pull back the layers and peel back the layers to find out exactly what's really going on in the home and what do we need to do to correct and modify the behavior and give the parents the support they need as well to get.

Doni: Yeah, yeah.

And I would suspect and this certainly isn't true all the time, I know, but I suspect there's an issue of structure, which is one of the things that your program provides.

I read that you actually teach young men how to tie a tie.

Shawn: We've done that polished shoes and whatnot.

But again, I want to take the stigma off of boot camp so people are thinking that we're just rah rah rah rah screaming and yelling.

Actually, this is not that type of program.

Is it a tough love program?

Absolutely.

But we were rather showed them tough love out of love before the street storm.

Tough love with no love.

Doni: And that's exactly right.

Are you working with police in this effort at all?

Who are your partners?

Shawn: So, unfortunately, we do not have a relationship with the Toledo Police Department officers that have come out on the scenes where I've actually been working with children.

They are just shocked and amazed that they don't know anything about our program.

So I think it comes at a point in time where we have to address the elephant in the room and find out why.

Is there a disconnect from the police to juvenile court, even our organization?

How come we can't work together to give our community something more that's going to be beneficial for everyone involved?

Doni: Yeah, we seem to have trouble as a community with the lots of important services happening in this community that somehow just miss each other and just somehow miss each other.

You know, one of the questions I wanted to ask you and I almost forgot is what when these children are coming to you, is there a common element that they seem to be missing?

Shawn: It will be a lack of fathers in the home, really lack of fathers.

And so you have single mothers, as does that include.

Doni: I'm sorry to interrupt, but does that include male influence?

So does the father have to be in the home as long as there's a male influence.

Shawn: Just a lack of male influence, male influence.

And if I had it my way, if I had a facility, I was just have young men come where they can come to a safe place.

I'll have a house, mother, where she can teach them the skills that they need.

They go to school, they come back, and then parents can visit their child or their son on a weekend.

But you are around strong males.

That's going to get you and help you get to that next level.

Doni: And is that true for both boys and girls?

Shawn: That is true for both boys and girls, correct.

Doni: Okay.

So moms can't do it all.

Shawn: They cannot do them all by themselves.

So we're thankful and grateful to do our part and to make sure we're doing what we need to do to make sure we can help keep the family together.

Doni: What do you think men bring to that scenario that women can provide.

Shawn: The the that sternness, that sternness, you know, just that male presence is something about a man's voice that a child will respond to quicker.

Any word with a smile?

Doni: Mm hmm.

And it's it's very difficult, I think, for moms, especially black women, who, you know, we think we can do it all all the time.

We think we are superwoman, for sure.

And I think we are and in a lot of ways.

But we really need to find if we are single moms.

Your thought is that we really need to find a way to bring that influence into the family, that influence of a male.

Shawn: Absolutely.

So when me and my ex-wife divorced, I simply asked her, Let me have my son, let me raise them.

And she did.

And we had co-parenting and we did very great at it.

But it was more important for me as a man to raise my son and give him the tools and values that he needs so he can be where he's at right now, which at 20 years old, he's doing great.

Doni: That's great.

That's great.

That's a whole nother conversation.

Another you're going to have to come back and.

Well, thank you so much for talking with us.

Thank you.

And thank you for being with us And we hope to see you again.

On to the point.

The views and opinions expressed in to the point are those of the host of the program and its guests.

They do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of WGTE public media.

This program was made possible in part by viewers like you.