Jeffrey Goldberg: Yes.

You know, one of the interesting subjects here that's come out in the past week, as you guys are talking about the book, is the role of the media.

I don't want to do like an extended media criticism here, especially because I'm not sure it's actually correct.

You were doing reporting in 2023.

You were bringing this up.

There's a quote that I want to show you.

It's actually -- I mean, it's not just you guys.

Ezra Klein was asking questions, The New York Times and Wall Street Journal.

I want to show you a quote from Mark Leibovich writing in The Atlantic in June of 2022.

JAKE TAPPER: Yes, 100 percent.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: And the article is called, Why Biden Shouldn't Run in 2024.

Biden is by no means the more eloquent character he was in his younger days.

It could be painful to watch him get prepared speeches.

His tone could be tentative and certain sentences, can become hop-scotching journeys.

His aides in the room look visibly nervous at times and so on.

I don't understand how this narrative has developed that no one in the media -- that the media was covering for Biden.

I think what might be going on here is a lack of understanding about how reporting works.

In order to prove that he's diminished, you have to have people, sources inside telling you this.

Give me your thoughts on this question.

JAKE TAPPER: Certainly, it's -- certainly, there were a lot of folks in the conservative media, in the pro-Trump media at Fox and elsewhere, who were running clips of Biden and saying, I think it was one Fox anchor called him Sippy -- Joe Sippy Cup Biden or whatever.

They were saying things along those lines and they were making a bigger deal about doubts about his acuity than it could be said the legacy media was.

And I think that's fair for them to say we were making a bigger deal.

But as you point out, there is a difference.

And I'm not belittling the importance of airing those clips.

I aired some of them too.

There is a difference between airing a clip and saying, that's odd, that's unusual, he seems - - it seems like something's going on, and what Alex and I have been able to do, which is after the election, all those Democrats, we talked to more than 200 sources for this book, almost all of them Democrats, almost all of them after the election, who were telling us what was really going on behind the scenes.

And the anecdotes and the concerns that we bring forward in this book is investigative journalism, and that is different from observational punditry.

ALEX THOMPSON: I would also just add that, you know, and I understand the pushback that, you know, Biden's age was constantly a topic, right?

And, you know, the Mark Leibovich story is a perfect example.

But that was about sort of, in a political lens, a horse race lens, I do not feel there was a ton of investigative reporting about his ability to do the job and how his age was really affecting it.

And I think also, I mean, look at the reaction to The Wall Street Journal story in June of 2024, just weeks before the debate.

There are a lot of reporters that sort of threw shade at that story.

There was not as much solidarity.

JAKE TAPPER: That's sort of -- there were people that attacked Annie Lin journalists who attacked Annie Linskey and Siobhan Hughes, two excellent Wall Street Journal reporters who were raked through the coals by not just the White House and Democrats, but by their own colleagues for just reporting the truth about what they could find out at that moment in time.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right.

Well, talk a little bit about -- well, I want you to watch something, because his I, this goes to the question of cover-up.

Watch this clip from Joe Biden speaking in 2016 at the convention.

JOE BIDEN: We have the most productive workers in the world.

And given a fair shot, given a fair chance, Americans have never, ever, ever, ever let their country down, never, never.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: That's 2016.

JAKE TAPPER: '16, yes.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: I mean, so here's the thing.

JAKE TAPPER: That's like watching a different person.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Well, how do you - - that's -- maybe this is a semantic debate.

But how do you -- it was all there.

It's all right in front of your eyes.

That is a vital man with a full voice, energy, coherence -- TAPPER: Although I will say, our reporting suggests that his diminishment began a year before that, that his diminishment began in 2015 with the death of Beau.

Because what seemed to happen, Jeffrey, is there were two Joe Bidens.

There was the fine Joe Biden that we just saw in that clip right there.

And then there was the non-functioning Biden that we saw during the debate.

And the non-functioning Biden would rear his head increasingly and more and more disturbingly as time went on.

So, when Barack Obama told Joe Biden that he didn't think he should run or suggested you should take care of yourself, part of what I think what Obama was seeing in Biden was the non-functioning Joe Biden.

Now, the question is, when did the non-functioning Biden emerged so often?

It was a real question as to whether he should serve as presidents, and I think that is probably not until 2023, 2024.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right.

ALEX THOMPSON: And I would just add that, yes, a lot of this was out there, but what was happening in front of the scenes was much worse behind the scenes.

They were propping up the best version of him like through those times.

And I believe that if the media had done a better job, then the debate would not have come as been so shocking to so many people.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right, right.

Well, you can lead people to stories that you write, but you can't make them read them.

And I think that's part of the issue.

I'm not trying to make excuses.

You've been very forthright about your critique of softness on the part of the media on the question.

But let me ask you this, because this is the actual serious matter here.

By 2023, 2024, Joe Biden was being limited, according to your reporting, in even the number of hours where he was functioning as president.

It's a 24-hour a day job.

It's become a cliche, but if you've woken up at 3:00 A.M. to find out that a North Korean missile is heading toward Japan, you've got to react.

JAKE TAPPER: And we have cabinet secretaries in the book, as you know, who are telling us that by 2024, they do not have faith that Joe Biden could be relied upon for that 3:00 A.M. phone call, and that's chilling, chilling.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: How do you -- I feel like I'm asking a question on behalf of just the average citizen or average voter.

How do you as a Washington professional, as a senior member of the White House staff, look at that situation, reach that conclusion, and then say, we're just going to, to use your language, cover it up?

I just don't understand.

JAKE TAPPER: It's tough to understand it.

But if you can -- first of all, in the historical context, one of the things that is important for people out there to understand is the presidency has maybe never been stronger, and political parties in the legislative branch have never been weaker.

The political parties -- I mean, Jamie Harrison who was the DNC chair, I don't know one person who thinks he could call up President Biden and tell him anything, you know?

And that's not even necessarily his fault.

The parties are just so weak and he was picked to be the weak leader of a weak party.

And the Republican - - the GOP isn't particularly strong either.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right.

ALEX THOMPSON: I would also say the, how you justify it, if you believe Donald Trump is an existential threat to democracy, you can justify almost anything, including doing at times undemocratic things.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Get a mannequin would be better from the perspective of a lot of critics of Donald Trump.

ALEX THOMPSON: There are tens of millions of people in this country that would prefer Joe Biden at 100 years old to Donald Trump right now.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: That's a -- no.

I mean, that's an interesting -- it's obviously an interesting point, but it's also beside the point.

One of the interesting things about the larger conversation that you guys have opened is that there's a lot of criticism of Donald Trump and the Republicans in Congress not checking his power, not playing their role on behalf of their branch of government.

But what this book is about is also, and we haven't really talked about it that much, and people aren't talking about it that much, Democrats in Congress were very, very late and very, very soft on this issue.

They could have, in 2022, said enough, you know, in 2023, enough.

Where were they?

JAKE TAPPER: Well, first of all, a lot of them were shunted off to the side and didn't get a lot of access starting in 2022, 2023.

And so some of them would -- we have members of Congress in the book who see Biden at the Christmas party in 2022 and then don't see him again in person until the next Christmas party in 2023.

And it's like he's aged 20 years in that one year.

And they remark to each other.

But where are the incentive structures in our politics for people to be brave?

Where are the incentive structures for people in our politics to raise their hand and say, the emperor has no clothes?

There aren't any.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right.

JAKE TAPPER: I mean, I understand why -- JEFFREY GOLDBERG: There was one congressman, one congressman -- JAKE TAPPER: Dean Phillips, who ran against Joe Biden, and was defenestrated.

And, you know, who knows what he's going to do next.

He's out of Congress.

He was utterly destroyed and humiliated.

Robert Hur, the special counsel, tried to tell the truth about what he saw behind the scenes.

We've now all Hur the her tapes and, oh my God, that's the same Joe Biden that was at the debate.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: And the White House was upset with Merrick Garland for even having -- I mean, there was talk about that for -- JAKE TAPPER: they were upset at Merrick Garland for not editing the Hur report, to remove the section that said, I'm not -- even though Joe Biden mishandled classified information, I'm not going to prosecute because I don't think I could get a conviction because the jury would see him as a well-meaning, sympathetic old man with a poor memory, which was the nicest thing he could say about Joe Biden.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right, right.

There's so much more to talk about.

One quick question and then one slow question for you.

The -- Kamala Harris, where was she?

ALEX THOMPSON: Well, she -- after Hur report, she became the main out front validator for Joe Biden's fitness, and she chose to do that.

And she said that Hur report was politically motivated, used her background as a prosecutor to say it was sloppy.

And she became -- you know, she basically put all of her chips in with Joe Biden.

Now, was she in every meeting?

No.

So, maybe she can claim plausibly that maybe she never saw the non-functioning Biden.

I'd also say within this context, you know, Joe Biden's inner circle had a very dim view of her, did not think that she could beat Donald Trump, still are -- like they'll still point to her and say, I told you so.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right.

ALEX THOMPSON: And they used her, you know, political standing as an excuse to justify running for reelection.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right.

Jake, I want to ask you this.

What -- based on your reporting on Biden, what do you, what have you learned about how the press should cover Donald Trump right now?

JAKE TAPPER: I don't think that the press should cover any president going forward, A, without demanding full and complete transparency about health records, which we're not getting from Trump.

We still don't know why he went to Walter Reed in 2019.

And I think that we need to be skeptical of everything that we are told by people in power.

And, I mean, that obviously should be the mantra of being a journalist to begin with.

If your mother tells you she loves you, get a second source.

But we just need to remember that, like politicians lie, White Houses lie.

Power is an aphrodisiac.

And we just need to all remember that and not take at face value anything that we're told.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Thank you, gentlemen.

This has been very interesting.

We're going to have to leave it there for now, but I want to thank our guests for joining me.

And thank you at home for watching us.