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Doni: Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free.

You might remember this quote.

It comes from the Emma Lazarus sonnet New Colossus.

The meaning of the poem lies in its powerful portrayal of the United States as a beacon of hope, freedom and opportunity for those seeking a new life.

The poem captures the essence of the Statue of Liberty as a welcoming symbol and characterizes this country as one open to people from all walks of life, regardless of their social, economic or cultural backgrounds.

But is that true?

Well, listen to our discussion about Title 42 and then you decide.

I'm Doni Miller.

Welcome to the Point.

Connect with us on our social media pages.

You may email me at doni _miller@wgte.org for this episode and other additional extras.

Please go to wgte.org/To the point.

I am so excited to have Eugenio Mollo with us this morning to talk about this really important topic.

Professor Mollo joined the University of Toledo College of Law as at the Clinical Assistant Professor of law.

Did I get all of that?

That's right.

In August of 2022, he served for nine years as the managing attorney of the Agricultural Worker and Immigrant rights practice at Advocates for Basic Legal Equality.

And one of the most exciting things I think, that he has done is that he has launched and teaches the Immigrant Immigrant Justice Clinic at the university, which we're going to talk about later, because can't wait to hear about that.

Right.

So here's where I want to start with you.

Every single person in the United States of America has heard about Title 42.

Most of us don't have a clue what it means.

We do know that it's caused backups at the border.

We do know that it's caused people to be sent back home who are trying to cross into the country.

Can you tell us what exactly it means?

Eugenio: Sure.

Good morning again.

Thank you, Danny, for having me.

So title 42 was a public health rule invoked at the beginning of the pandemic, March 2020 in the United States.

And what it allowed border agents to do is turn away people at the southern border who otherwise might be eligible for asylum.

And we know for the three years that Title 42 was in place, border agents used that authority.

2.8 million times earlier this month, like all other COVID related federal emergencies.

Title 42 ended.

So the government isn't operating under Title 42 protocols anymore.

We're operating under standard immigration law, what's called Title eight, with one big exception.

This at the same time that Title 42 was lifted.

President Biden and his administrated his administration implemented some new rules that took effect immediately.

Doni: So so let me be clear.

Title 42 was actually a public health law.

That's right.

So it was it was connected to COVID.

That's right.

And the conversation then had to be one that sounded like we are we are not allowing you into the country because of our fear of COVID that you may bring the disease or exacerbate the presence of the disease in the country.

Eugenio: All of that is absolutely correct.

You don't have to worry about Title 42 anymore.

What you do have right?

So Title 42 was over.

So it was in place from March 2020 through a couple of weeks ago.

Now we're dealing with Title eight and these new proposed rules that the administration has moved forward.

Doni: So what exactly is totally.

Eugenio: So Title eight is standard operation procedure.

Okay.

With the big change, are these rules.

So the Biden administration has come up with what I like to categorize and other people like to categorize as a carrot and stick approach, that there are incentives for individuals who take leave, lawful pathways, lawful pathways to enter the United States.

And President Biden has expanded those lawful pathways.

But if you don't take advantage of those lawful pathways, there are some serious sticks waiting for you on the other side.

Doni: Okay.

But isn't part of the problem the the lack of capacity in the court system, the immigration court.

Eugenio: Even before we get to the court system, people need to enter the United States.

So part of these carrots that President Biden has implemented is that he's allowing he created this special parole program for nationals of four countries in our hemisphere that make up a large segment of the population.

Doni: Who are those?

Eugenio: Those are individuals from Haiti, Cuba, Nicaragua and Venezuela.

Earlier this year, President Biden implemented a special parole program for those four countries.

You need to have a sponsor in the United States.

And he's allowing up to 30,000 people every month to come in from those four countries for a two year parole program.

And President Biden thinks that that will lessen the traffic and the congestion at the border.

He's allowing people to come in 30,000 a month.

Doni: Okay.

So that was going to be my question.

How do those 30,000 actually get through the border?

Eugenio: So they are part of this special parole program that you have to have a passport, you have to fly into a place in the United States.

Doni: So you're not allowed to cross on foot.

Eugenio: You're not allowed to cross on foot.

This is for people who have a sponsor in the United States and have some access to money.

You need a passport.

You need enough money to buy a plane ticket.

So, you know, it's not for everyone.

You need to be part of these four countries.

Another big carrot that President Biden has implemented is people may have heard about this CBP one app.

CBP stands for Customs and Border Protection.

It's part of the Department of Homeland Security.

Its main responsibility is to control traffic along our northern and southern borders.

And President Biden has expanded the number of people who are eligible to make an application.

Up to a thousand people a day are able to make an application.

Make able to make an appointment, excuse me, to then submit an application for asylum.

If you're able to follow these lawful pathways, then you have full range to our asylum laws as we've understood them for many generations.

Doni: But you know what?

All of this strikes me as it's it it strikes me as still being a very difficult path for those folks who are really trying hard to change the quality of their lives to to find an opportunity to live their lives, to escape countries where where crime is rampant.

Violence is rampant.

It feels as though we are not really addressing those people.

Am I wrong?

Eugenio: Well, what President Biden would say is that I want to help those people.

But you have we need order at the border.

So I'm creating these carrots.

I'm creating these special parole programs.

I'm creating this increased appointment application.

But if you don't follow those pathways, we're going to make it even more difficult.

I'm going to hold your asylum application to heightened legal standards.

Doni: And the standards would be.

Eugenio: Those standards are very hard.

So you need to show that you tried a lawful pathway.

And this is a big shift in immigration policy that you needed to have applied for asylum in a country that you traveled through before coming to the United States.

And if you don't follow those lawful pathways, you are presumed ineligible for asylum.

So the focus has been on the border and it's it's much more difficult for the individuals that you mentioned.

But the situation at the border is real.

We're facing a migration crisis and the administration has come up with these carrot and sticks.

Approaches don't come.

So they've already faced litigate.

They've already faced complaints in court.

Law school in courts.

Doni: Is going to ask.

Eugenio: Folks, have sued about the carrots, saying that President Biden has exceeded his authority in implementing these parole programs, which, when calculated out over 12 months, has the potential of benefiting 360,000 people.

So folks who are suing on the carrots are saying that's a responsibility for Congress, President Biden.

And then, of course, you have groups on the other side who are suing on the sticks saying our immigration laws are asylum laws should be open to everyone, regardless of manner of entry.

And I think what President Biden would say is, well, they're still open.

You can rebut this presumption of ineligibility.

So you're not totally foreclosed from the process.

We're just going to make it a little bit more difficult.

And it'll be up to the courts to determine whether or not these carrots and sticks out are legal.

Doni: So those folks who are who are making that treacherous journey to the border are essentially going to be turned away almost every time.

Eugenio: Unless they find a lawful pathway to come to the United States.

They will have an opportunity to make their claim, but they're going to be subjected to much higher legal standards.

They'll need to show exceptionally compelling circumstances as to why they didn't follow a lawful.

Doni: Pathway and and the the status of the political status status that exists in their country would not be considered compelling.

Eugenio: So it can be.

But.

Right.

There's there's a lot of migrants we're facing displacement and refugee crisis like we haven't seen before.

That's right.

The four countries that I mentioned, Haiti, Cuba, Nicaragua and Venezuela, many have argued that these are failed states.

So you have a huge surge of displaced people, of refugees.

You have COVID bottlenecks.

You have violence in these countries.

Doni: You have rape and kidnaping and all.

Eugenio: You have accelerating climate change that is forcing people to relocate.

So you have, you know, a lot of people that are in need long term.

What the administration, the Biden administration has committed to.

They're not set up yet are regional processing centers in cooperation with allies in the regions.

I think he said in Guatemala and Colombia, for folks, instead of making, as you pointed out, a dangerous journey to the southern border, let's stop them in Guatemala or Colombia and see if there's something that they're eligible for before they make the dangerous trek to the United States.

Doni: I'm going to ask you to hold that thought.

We're going to go away for just a moment, but we'll be right back.

Right.

Jaden: Immigration is a topic that is talked about quite a lot in America, which is why in this week's edition of On Point, we're asking people, what are your thoughts on America's immigration policies?

Melvin: I think immigration in this country should be more so.

I mean, not in this country, but like, well, why this should be like you shouldn't be focused on coming to America.

We should make it so that there's different places across the world or just in this continent all and how people are can they can move here, move.

They move like wherever they want and still find peace and stability in there, in their jobs, in their family, in their communities.

So I feel like having that sense of like, you can go to America or you can go to kind of we can go to like Mexico, we can go to somewhere overseas, like and to have a quality of life and to be in a community with people across the country and wherever you want to move.

Jaden: So what are your guys his thoughts on immigration in general, or specifically America's immigration policy?

Keegan: There's some things about our policy that can definitely be changed.

You know, some of our best doctors, our best engineers, our our best everything.

I mean, you can look at just about any like huge advancement in science and technology and probably 8 to 9 times out of ten, we imported those people like they came here as immigrants looking for a better life.

And, you know, they gave us this technology and.

Wonderful.

Yeah, exactly.

So, like, we need to be embracing that.

America was built.

Demetria: Thanks to immigrants.

And I think that's some.

Of our immigration policies are too strict.

Considering how far the country has come at the expense of.

Immigrants.

Jaden: At on point this week...

I'm Jaden Jefferson.

Doni: As always, connect with us on our social media pages.

And as always, you can email me at doni _miller@wgte.org for this episode and other additional extras.

Please go to wgte.org/To that point, we are talking to Professor Eugenio Mollo about the overwhelming and I think it's really safe to say that this is an overwhelming issue just emotionally and, and managing the technicalities of the whole issues and the constitutionality of the whole issue is absolutely overwhelming.

Far too much to for us to discuss and in thoroughness this morning.

But I would like to ask you again about about the ability to claim asylum.

Eugenio: Mm hmm.

So our refugee laws have been on the books since 1951.

The framework of what a refugee is.

And I'm sorry to tell you this, you have to take your mind back to probably one of the most horrific times in human history.

Europe, World War Two.

The Holocaust.

Doni: The Holocaust.

Yeah.

Eugenio: So you have to remind yourself who the Nazis persecuted.

Jewish people, religious minorities, political dissidents, black Europe peons, Roma people, Slavic people, people with disabilities, queer people.

So in the aftermath of the war, the world powers got together and said, How?

What can we learn from this atrocity, from this huge tragedy?

Let's create a definition of what a refugee is.

And generally speaking, for the sake of this comfort conversation, a refugee is someone who's been persecuted or has a well-founded fear of persecution on the basis of their race, their religion, their nationality, political opinion, or membership in a particular social group.

That's it.

How did we come up with those five categories?

We look to the victims of the Holocaust, and that's been the framework for the past 70 years.

Eugenio: So what's the challenge now?

Certainly, people are still being persecuted on those five listed grounds.

But what we're also seeing are groups of people who sort of look like they fit into those categories.

But it's not crystal clear what are we seeing A lot of victims of domestic violence are victims of domestic violence.

Are they being persecuted on the basis of race, religion, nationality, political opinion, membership in a particular social group?

Maybe.

And President Clinton started this conversation 20 years ago.

We still don't have a clear answer from the courts or from Congress.

Victims of gang violence, Do they fit under this refugee framework?

We don't know.

A growing area of the law.

What about people who are politically neutral?

Mm hmm.

I've had clients come to me and they say I didn't want to join this party, Eugenio.

I didn't want to join that party.

All I want to do is wake up, go to work, come home, enjoy a nice dinner with my family, spend some time with them and sleep in peace.

But what happens?

Being politically neutral.

This party attacks you and this party attacks you.

And now they come to the United States.

So the legal question is, is being politically neutral a political opinion that merits asylum protection in the United States?

So courts are wrestling with these issues.

We have a huge backlog.

We have more than a million asylum applications that are currently pending in our system.

And it takes, on average, more than four years for an immigration court case to go from beginning to end.

It's a severe backlog system.

Doni: And it's a much bigger problem, though, than just addressing that judicial backlog, that legal backlog.

I've heard conversations where elected officials have said, look, we just need more judges.

We just need a tighter system.

But listening to you, it's it's the problems before you get there are enormous.

Eugenio: Well, there's problems before you get there.

Doni: And we have.

Eugenio: Pre-existing problems.

So most of this conversation has been focused on recent arrivals to the United States.

We have to remember we have about 11 million people in the United States who've been here for many, many years.

The current statistic is that two thirds of them, two thirds of current undocumented people have been in the country for at least a decade.

I understand for the past few weeks the focus has been on recent arrivals.

What about the 11 million people who have built a home already here and who have U.S. citizen children?

The Dreamer population.

Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals, who have been here since at least 2017, who've graduated from high school, who served in our military.

They remain in legal limbo.

Doni: That's exactly right.

In addition to which, the census numbers indicate that the number of immigrants is rising 1.7 million in 2021, 2 million in 2022.

So the problem continues to exacerbate or the concerns continue to exacerbate.

I did want to ask you about the Dreamers, though.

They seem to be in a particularly unique situation.

What what do we do about that now?

What do you think are so.

Eugenio: The Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals program came into being about ten years ago in 2012.

President Obama implemented that rule.

It's had this back and forth between the courts.

One size that president argues that President Obama exceeded his authority.

The other side is arguing that President Obama as the chief exec order, used lawfully his prosecutorial discretion authority in creating the DOCA program.

One of these days, unless Congress acts, it'll be before the Supreme Court again.

And we have to remember that under our constitutional law framework, Congress is the branch of government who shall establish a uniform rule of naturalization that's in the Constitution.

And that's been interpreted to mean that Congress has plenary power, full power over immigration matters.

And for most of this conversation so far, we've focused on President Biden and the courts.

And that's not how our Constitution is set up.

Congress should be handling these immigration matters.

Doni: Yeah, the issues that face the country, though, the United States of America relative to immigration are real.

We've heard Gavin Newsom say that his his state, California, is being stretched beyond what's reasonable in determining in providing services for folks who are coming into his state, for instance.

And you hear that being explained around around the country.

We're also seeing things that I find personally offensive.

We are shipping people who are in bussing them to other states and dropping them off with no services.

What is our obligation right now to those folks who have managed to come into the country but who are now sleeping on sidewalks or are being put into school shelters where communities don't want them?

Eugenio: I think everyone would appreciate more coordination from the local level to the state level to the federal level.

And there's some talks in the administration that they're offering additional resources to do that.

We have to recognize that folks crossing the border today look different than they did a few generations ago.

A few generations ago, they were mostly men.

They were mostly from Mexico.

And they mostly came here looking for work.

Now what we see are a lot of women, a lot of children, families.

They're not only coming from Mexico.

They're coming from throughout the Americas.

And instead of looking primarily for work, they're looking for safety.

So it's a vastly different population.

So we're trying to figure it's a 21st century problem using our 20th century laws.

And that's that's the things aren't aligning well.

Doni: So what about what are we missing?

What what are we missing?

Where we're so far off base in terms of the systems that are designed to address the problem.

We as you've mentioned, we are so far off base in terms of actually understanding the problem.

And we've allowed it to to devolve into issues other than what the real issues are.

How do we fix this?

Eugenio: That's a question for Congress to answer, right?

So there's a number of different proposals to address the backlog to set up these regional centers, to work with our allies in the Americas, recognize that this refugee displacement crisis is only going to get worse.

So what is going to be the United States role as a global moral leader that we have been for two centuries?

We have to come up with solutions.

And under our constitutional law framework, Congress is in the best situation to do that.

Doni: Boy, I really want you to come back so we can talk about this some more.

But we have just a few seconds left, and I want you to tell us about the Immigrant Justice Clinic.

Eugenio: Great.

Thank you.

Danny So the immigrant Justice Clinic is the newest legal clinic at the College of Law.

And what we do is we represent real clients on real cases.

Students do this.

So students, under my supervision, are able to interview clients, counsel clients, listen to clients and work on these cases.

Draft declarations appear in court, appear before an administrative agency, even if they're not interested in immigration law, they're learning core lawyering skills that will help them after they graduate.

So it's a real fulfilling job.

It's rewarding to see law students grow from law students to soon to be lawyers.

I have them for about a year.

I teach them immigration law for a semester.

And then there's an opportunity to take the Immigrant Justice Clinic for.

Doni: Congratulations on that.

What an amazing, amazing accomplishment.

And you'll come back.

Eugenio: Of course.

Yes.

Thank you.

Doni: Thank you so much for joining us.

We will see you next week.

On to the Point.

Announcer: The views and opinions expressed in to the point are those of the host of the program and its guests.

They do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of WGTE Public Media.

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