ANNOUNCER: BACKSTORY IS MADE POSSIBLE IN PART BY KEYBANK WITH ADDITIONAL SUPPORT FROM THE LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS, AND BY VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

(MUSIC) JASON HIBBS: WELCOME TO BACKSTORY.

I'M JASON HIBBS.

AND TODAY WE'RE TALKING ABOUT SOMETHING THAT HAS DIVIDED COMMUNITIES AND FAMILIES AND SEEMS TO BE GETTING WORSE: CONSPIRACY THEORIES.

OUR GUEST TODAY, DR. MERRILL KAPLAN.

PROFESSOR KAPLAN IS A FOLKLORIST AT THE OHIO STATE UNIVERSITY'S CENTER FOR FOLKLORE STUDIES.

SHE RESEARCHES EVERYDAY BELIEF IN EXTRAORDINARY THINGS, AND SHE TEACHES COURSES ON RUMOR, LEGEND AND CONSPIRACY THEORY.

AND WE HAVE ONE OF THE LEADING VOICES ON UNDUE INFLUENCE AND CONTROLLING GROUPS AND INDIVIDUALS, DR. STEVEN HASSAN.

HASSAN WAS ONCE A CULT LEADER HIMSELF IN THE MOONIE CULT, HE'S THE FOUNDER OF THE FREEDOM OF MIND RESOURCE CENTER AND HAS WRITTEN MULTIPLE BOOKS.

HIS LATEST PUBLISHED BY SIMON AND SCHUSTER, "THE CULT OF TRUMP: A LEADING CULT EXPERT EXPLAINS HOW THE PRESIDENT USES MIND CONTROL."

AND DR. HASSAN, TRUMP SUPPORTERS ARE CHANGING THE CHANNEL AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE BECAUSE THEY'RE OFFENDED BY THAT TITLE.

CONVINCE THEM TO STICK AROUND AND LISTEN TO WHAT YOU HAVE TO SAY.

DR STEVEN HASSAN: WELL, I WOULD START BY SAYING THAT, FOR ME, CULTS EXIST ON A CONTINUUM FROM HEALTHY AND ETHICAL TO UNHEALTHY AND UNETHICAL.

AND SO I AM ACTUALLY QUOTED IN A BOOK CALLED "THE CULT OF MAC" AS A FOLLOWER AND A USER OF MACINTOSH PRODUCTS.

I'M ALSO AN AVID SCUBA DIVER.

BUT I WAS ALSO INVOLVED WITH THE MOONIES FOR TWO AND A HALF YEARS BACK IN THE 70S AND EXPERIENCED A RADICAL PERSONALITY CHANGE WHICH JUST REALLY MOTIVATED ME TO LEARN ABOUT BRAINWASHING AND MIND CONTROL AND SOCIAL PSYCHOLOGY.

AND I CAN TELL YOU, AS A MOONIE, I DIDN'T THINK I WAS BRAINWASHED.

AND I DIDN'T THINK I WAS IN A CULT.

I THOUGHT OTHER GROUPS WERE CULTS AND OTHER PEOPLE WERE BRAINWASHED, BUT I WAS TOO SMART, AND EDUCATED.

AND IT TURNED OUT I HAD A FALSE IMAGE IN MY HEAD OF WHAT BRAINWASHING WAS, THAT IT INVOLVES COERCION AND TORTURE.

AND THAT HADN'T HAPPENED TO ME.

AND SO I WOULD INVITE PEOPLE TO CONSIDER THE POSSIBILITY THAT IF THEY REALLY DON'T THINK THEY'RE IN A CULT, THAT WHY NOT LISTEN, AND YOU NEVER KNOW, YOU MIGHT LEARN SOMETHING.

JASON HIBBS: AND I WANT TO ASK YOU MORE ABOUT THE MOONIES IN JUST A MOMENT.

BUT FIRST PROFESSOR KAPLAN, IT SEEMS LIKE NOW WE ARE TALKING MORE ABOUT CONSPIRACY THEORIES THAN WE DID IN THE PAST.

BUT I DON'T KNOW.

I MEAN, IS THIS NEW?

OR IS THIS JUST AN OLD FORM OF STORYTELLING?

MERRILL KAPLAN: WELL, HOW ABOUT BOOKS?

THIS IS AN OLD FORM OF STORYTELLING.

AND SOME OF THE THINGS THAT YOU SEE CIRCULATING RIGHT NOW HAVE DEEP, DEEP ROOTS IN VERY UGLY PLACES.

HAS THERE BEEN AN UPTICK IN CONSPIRACY THEORIES?

QUITE POSSIBLY.

SOCIAL MEDIA HAS AN AMPLIFYING EFFECT ON SPECIFICALLY THIS KIND OF STORYTELLING.

AND I THINK THAT WE CAN'T DISCOUNT THAT.

JASON HIBBS: OKAY, DOCTOR HASSAN, I LIKE TO THINK THAT I'M AN OPEN MINDED INDIVIDUAL.

YOU KNOW, AT ONE POINT, PEOPLE THOUGHT THAT THE EARTH WAS FLAT, AND PEOPLE WHO DISAGREED WITH THAT WERE CONSIDERED CRAZY.

SO WHERE'S THE LINE BETWEEN HAVING HEALTHY SKEPTICISM, YOU KNOW, QUESTIONING GOVERNMENT LEADERS, AND FALLING INTO THE TRAP AND BECOMING OBSESSED WITH CONSPIRACY THEORIES?

DR STEVEN HASSAN: SO IT'S A VERY GOOD QUESTION.

AND I WOULD JUST URGE PEOPLE TO TAKE A SCIENTIFIC KIND OF APPROACH TO REALITY.

AND WHAT I LIKE ABOUT A SCIENTIFIC APPROACH IS THAT IT ASSUMES WE DON'T KNOW THE TRUTH, THAT WE'RE IN A QUEST TO LEARN MORE, AND THAT WE HAVE HYPOTHESES BUT WE WANT EVIDENCE TO TEST AND IF WE COME UP WITH A BETTER THEORY OR BETTER HYPOTHESIS, WE ABANDON THE OLD ONE AND MOVE FORWARD.

AND I RECOMMEND ALSO THAT PEOPLE CONSIDER SEPARATING THEIR EGO AND THEIR BELIEFS BECAUSE EVERYBODY HAS EXPERIENCED BEING LIED TO OR CONNED BY SOMEBODY.

I KNOW I FELL IN LOVE WITH A WOMAN WHO TURNED OUT TO BE A CON ARTIST.

BUT I LOVED HER.

AND UNTIL I DID MY DUE DILIGENCE AND FOUND OUT HER HISTORY AND REALIZED SHE WAS NOT A GOOD PERSON, AND NO MATTER HOW MUCH I WANTED TO BELIEVE SHE WAS A GOOD PERSON, SHE WASN'T SOMEONE I WANTED TO HAVE IN MY LIFE.

JASON HIBBS: PROFESSOR, WHAT SIGNS SHOULD AN INDIVIDUAL LOOK FOR?

THAT THE CONSPIRACY THEORY IS BECOMING AN OBSESSION, UNHEALTHY OBSESSION?

DR STEVEN HASSAN: TO ME?

JASON HIBBS: SO YEAH, BOTH OF YOU.

YEAH, YOU GO AHEAD.

DR STEVEN HASSAN: I'M A MENTAL HEALTH PROFESSIONAL.

SO WHAT I ALWAYS WANT TO LOOK AT IS FUNCTIONALITY.

AND IS THE PERSON ABLE TO SLEEP PROPERLY, EAT PROPERLY, EXERCISE, DO THEIR WORK, ARE THEIR RELATIONSHIPS INTACT?

AND WHEN IT'S UNETHICAL, THERE'S A MAJOR PERSONALITY SHIFT IN MANY CASES.

THERE'S DISRUPTION OF SOMEBODY'S FUNCTIONALITY AND ABILITY TO MAINTAIN CORE RELATIONSHIPS WITH FAMILY AND FRIENDS.

AND, AND AND AGAIN, IT'S AN ISSUE OF BEING OPEN MINDED TO LOOKING FROM OTHER POINTS OF VIEW.

AND MY WORK OVER THE LAST 45 YEARS IS TEACHING PEOPLE HOW TO DISCERN THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ETHICAL AND UNETHICAL INFLUENCES, BY FOCUSING ON FOUR OVERLAPPING COMPONENTS, LOOKING AT BEHAVIORS, INFORMATION, THOUGHTS AND EMOTIONS.

AND THE MORE UNHEALTHY GROUPS AND SYSTEMS ARE AUTHORITARIAN, WHERE THEY WANT YOU TO BE OBEDIENT AND DEPENDENT AND HAVE A BLACK AND WHITE, ALL OR NOTHING, GOOD VERSUS EVIL IDEOLOGY.

THERE'S A LOT OF FEAR, A LOT OF GUILT, AND A LOT OF MANIPULATION, ENDS JUSTIFYING THE MEANS WHERE THEY PEOPLE THINK THAT THEY SHOULD BE ABOVE THE LAW.

AS OPPOSED TO ETHICAL INVOLVEMENTS, WHICH RESPECT CONSCIENCE, INFORMATION AND EVIDENCE, RULE OF LAW, THE CONSTITUTION.

JASON HIBBS: DR. KAPLAN, WHAT SAY YOU TO THAT AND RELATIONSHIPS WITH FAMILY MEMBERS?

IS THAT USUALLY THE FIRST THING TO BE HARMED?

IS THAT A RED FLAG, MERRILL KAPLAN: I THINK THAT'S THAT CAN BE A RED RED FLAG ISOLATION CAN BE SOMETHING THAT LEAVES PEOPLE VULNERABLE TO RADICAL CHANGES IN WORLDVIEW.

COMING FROM A FOLKLORE DIRECTION, SOME OF WHAT FOLKLORISTS DO WHEN WE STUDY STORIES, IS WHAT PEOPLE DO WITH STORIES, INCLUDING RUMORS.

AND SO YOU CAN ALWAYS ASK IF YOU'VE BEEN TOLD A STORY THAT THAT GIVES YOU THAT SORT OF INTERNAL PRESSURE OF LIKE, WOW, I NEED TO TELL THAT TO AS MANY PEOPLE AS I AS POSSIBLE, BECAUSE THAT'S IMPORTANT IN SOME WAY.

MAYBE IT'S LEGITIMATE NEWS, MAYBE IT'S A RUMOR, MAYBE IT'S PART OF A CONSPIRACY THEORY, ALL THESE THINGS ARE TRANSMITTED IN THE SAME SORTS OF WAYS.

YOU CAN ASK YOURSELF, IF SOMEONE IS ASKING YOU TO BUY INTO A SET OF STORIES, IS ARE THESE BEING WEAPONIZED AGAINST SOME GROUP?

ARE THESE ALL STORIES THAT ARE ABOUT HOW THE CHINESE ARE DANGEROUS?

ARE THESE ALL STORIES THAT ARE ABOUT HOW THE JEWS ARE DANGEROUS?

IT'S LIKE WELL, BACK UP.

THAT MAY NOT BE LEGITIMATE, BUT THAT MAY JUST BE BAD.

THAT MAY BE A STORY THAT IS DESIGNED IS BEING PUSHED BY PEOPLE TO GET OTHER PEOPLE HURT.

THAT IS SOMETHING TO KEEP YOUR EARS PRICKED FOR.

JASON HIBBS: DR. HASSAN, AT WHAT POINT SHOULD A CONCERNED FAMILY MEMBER INTERVENE?

I MEAN, WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN "WELL UNCLE JOE JUST LIKES WATCHING YOUTUBE VIDEOS" AND "I NEED TO HAVE AN INTERVENTION WITH UNCLE JOE BECAUSE I'M WORRIED ABOUT HIS PHYSICAL AND EMOTIONAL HEALTH AND IT'S IMPACTING OUR RELATIONSHIP?"

DR STEVEN HASSAN: SO IT'S A REALLY GOOD QUESTION.

I WOULD BACK UP AND SAY THAT PEOPLE REALLY NEED TO STAY IN TOUCH WITH FAMILY MEMBERS AND FRIENDS REGULARLY AND CREATE A PACT WHERE IF THEY DISCOVER SOMETHING NEW, SOMETHING INTERESTING, SOMETHING DIFFERENT, THAT THEY SHARE IT AND SO THAT YOU CAN GET OTHER PEOPLE'S INPUT ON "IS THIS LEGIT?

WHAT DO YOU THINK?"

KIND OF A TRUST POD IN YOUR RELATIONSHIP.

TYPICALLY, WHEN SOMEBODY GETS RECRUITED BY AN AUTHORITARIAN CULT, THEY GO IN TWO DIFFERENT DIRECTIONS.

ONE THEY BECOME HYPER-ZEALOUS, AND THEY TRY TO PROSELYTIZE AS IN QANON PEOPLE.

OR THEY GET SECRETIVE AND THEY DISAPPEAR.

AND BECAUSE THEY'RE SPENDING ALL THEIR TIME AWAY, AND EITHER ONE SHOULD BE AN ALARM BELL.

IF THE PERSON'S SUPER ZEALOUS, YOU HAVE TO, IN MY OPINION, INSTEAD OF SAYING, "ARE YOU IN A CULT?

OR ARE YOU BEING BRAINWASHED," WHICH IS NOT A RECOMMENDED SET OF COMMUNICATIONS.

TO SAY, "YOU SEEM REALLY INTO THIS.

BACK UP, AND TELL ME, HOW DID YOU LEARN OF IT?

WHAT WAS IT THAT CAUGHT YOUR ATTENTION?

WAS THERE A VIDEO?

WAS THERE A PERSON?"

BECAUSE IF IT'S LEGITIMATE, IT WILL STAND UP TO SCRUTINY.

AND I MAY BE INTERESTED IN IT TOO.

SO IN OTHER WORDS, A CURIOUS, CONCERNED ATTITUDE AND OPEN COMMUNICATION IS WHAT I RECOMMEND TO FAMILY MEMBERS.

AND ONLY IF THE PERSON DISAPPEARS, THEN YOU NEED TO GET PROFESSIONAL HELP.

OR IF YOU FIND YOURSELF LOSING YOUR RESOURCEFULNESS AND YELLING AT THE PERSON OR HAVING BATTLES WITH THEM, BACK UP, GET SOME PROFESSIONAL ADVICE, AND UNDERSTAND THAT IT'S NOT A PERMANENT CONDITION THAT THEY'VE BEEN RECRUITED INTO A CULT, BUT IT'S FIXABLE, BUT IT'S GOING TO TAKE EFFORT AND IT'S BEST TO BE DONE AS A PROJECT WITH OTHER FAMILY MEMBERS AND FRIENDS.

JASON HIBBS: AND KIND OF FOLLOWING UP ON THAT DR. HASSAN.

FIRST, I THINK IT'S WORTH, YOU KNOW, THIS DISCLAIMER THAT PEOPLE ON THE LEFT ARE CERTAINLY NOT IMMUNE TO CONSPIRACY THEORIES, EITHER.

BUT BUT RECENTLY, IT DOES SEEM LIKE MORE OF THEM TEND TO APPEAL TO PEOPLE ON THE POLITICAL RIGHT AND IN THIS COUNTRY.

I DON'T KNOW IF YOU IF YOU WANT TO WEIGH IN ON THAT.

BUT DR STEVEN HASSAN: I THINK THAT THERE ARE AUTHORITARIAN CULTS ON THE LEFT AND RIGHT.

IN FACT, THE WORK THAT HELPED ME GET OUT OF THE MOONIES WAS CHINESE COMMUNIST BRAINWASHING, AND LEARNING ABOUT THE MODELS DEVELOPED BY FORMER MILITARY INTELLIGENCE AMERICAN OFFICIALS.

AND WE KNOW THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT IS HAVING BRAINWASHING PROGRAMS RIGHT NOW ON AT LEAST A MILLION UYGHURS, IF NOT MORE PEOPLE.

SO I THINK IT'S A MISTAKE TO THINK LEFT OR RIGHT.

I THINK IT REALLY COMES DOWN TO ARE WE PRO DEMOCRACY?

ARE WE PRO HUMAN RIGHTS?

OR ARE WE AUTHORITARIAN?

AND THAT'S THE THING TO WATCH OUT FOR.

I'M OF COURSE, PRO HUMAN RIGHTS, RULE OF LAW, CONSTITUTION, AND RESPECT FOR OTHERS.

JASON HIBBS: BUT LET'S JUST GET REAL HERE.

AND YOU KNOW, PEOPLE LIKE YOU GUYS, ON PROGRAMS ON PLACES LIKE PBS, YOU'RE CONSIDERED THE MEDIA ELITE, YOU KNOW, AND WE'RE NOT TRUSTED.

SO HOW DO YOU EVEN START TO BUILD RAPPORT WITH PEOPLE WHO THINK YOU ARE AT BEST, MISLED, AND MAYBE AT WORST EVIL?

DR STEVEN HASSAN: SURE.

SO I MEAN, WHEN PEOPLE TELL ME THAT I'M BRAINWASHED, I USE THAT AND SAY, "THAT'S REALLY INTERESTING.

I THOUGHT I KNEW WHAT BRAINWASHING WAS, PLEASE TEACH ME.

WHAT IS IT?

WHAT MODELS DO YOU USE, BECAUSE I USE CHINESE COMMUNIST BRAINWASHING."

AND I ALSO STUDY PIMPS AND TRAFFICKERS, WHICH I ALSO KNOW PEOPLE IN THE CULT OF TRUMP ARE AGAINST, AND, AND I HELP PEOPLE WHO'VE BEEN VICTIMIZED BY BOTH.

SO IN OTHER WORDS, IT'S ABOUT NOT GETTING INTO AN ALL OR NOTHING BATTLE OF WHO'S RIGHT OR WHO'S WRONG, BUT A FRAME OF "WE WANT TO PURSUE THE TRUTH."

JASON HIBBS: WELL, I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THE MOONIES, HOW YOU ENDED UP BECOMING A LEADER IN THAT CULT AND THEN ESCAPING, BUT FIRST, WE'VE GOT TO TAKE A QUICK BREAK.

THOSE OF YOU AT HOME, GRAB YOUR CELL PHONE, OPEN UP THE CAMERA APP, GET READY TO TAKE A PHOTO BECAUSE WE'VE GOT SOME RESOURCES FOR YOU, IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO LEARN MORE ABOUT THIS.

WE'LL BE BACK WITH MORE BACKSTORY IN JUST A MOMENT.

(MUSIC) JASON HIBBS: WELCOME BACK TO BACKSTORY.

I'M JASON HIBBS.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT CONSPIRACY THEORIES AND PROFESSOR KAPLAN.

WHY ARE CONSPIRACY THEORIES SO ATTRACTIVE?

MERRILL KAPLAN: WELL, THEY POP UP, I'LL TELL YOU THE SITUATIONS IN WHICH THEY POP UP.

THEY POP UP WHEN THERE'S DISTRUST IN TRADITIONAL AUTHORITIES AND SOURCES OF INFORMATION.

BECAUSE AS SOMETHING YOU SUGGESTED EARLIER, IT'S IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND PEOPLE WHO SUBSCRIBE TO CONSPIRACY THEORIES, THEY'RE NOT MORE GULLIBLE THAN OTHER PEOPLE, THEY'RE MORE SKEPTICAL.

THEY'RE EXCESSIVELY SKEPTICAL.

WHEN OVERALL, A CULTURE HAS GOTTEN TO BE, WELL, TRUSTING TRADITIONAL AUTHORITIES LESS, THEN TRUST MAY SHIFT TO SOURCES THAT AGREE THAT SAY, MAINSTREAM MEDIA AND UNRECOGNIZED AND RECOGNIZED EXPERTS ARE UNTRUSTWORTHY.

AND THEN, WHEN RECOGNIZED EXPERTS SAY SOMETHING IS TRUE THAT IS MADE INTO PROOF THAT THAT THING IS FALSE, EVERYTHING FLIPS ON ITS HEAD.

THIS IS HOW YOU GET TO A PLACE WHERE PEOPLE WILL SAY, IF DR. FAUCI SAYS IT, THEN IT MUST BE A LIE.

THE THING IS THAT EXPERTS ARE GOING TO KEEP SAYING THINGS.

AND SO THE PEOPLE WHO ARE SKEPTICAL OF WHAT THEY SAY, WILL COME UP WITH EXPLANATIONS FOR WHY THEY CONTINUE TO LIE AND GET AWAY WITH IT.

AND THOSE EXPLANATIONS ARE THEN TRANSMITTED AS RUMORS.

AND IF THOSE RUMORS ARE MADE TO ADD UP INTO A LARGER STORY, YOU HAVE A CONSPIRACY THEORY.

JASON HIBBS: PROFESSOR KAPLAN, HOW HAVE THE INTERNET AND RECENTLY SOCIAL MEDIA CONTRIBUTED TO THIS?

MERRILL KAPLAN: GREAT QUESTION.

THE INTERNET HAS BEEN THIS GREAT LEVELER, WHERE A LOT OF THE GATE GATEKEEPERS OF TRADITIONAL MEDIA HAVE FALLEN AWAY, BECAUSE YOU CAN PUT LOTS OF STUFF ONLINE, JUST YOURSELF, A PRIVATE PERSON.

AND THAT WAS TRUE OF INTERNET 1.0, SO-CALLED.

INTERNET 2.0, WITH SOCIAL MEDIA DID THE SECONDARY THING WHERE IT CONNECTED US ALL IN THESE VAST WEBS OF FRIENDS AND ACQUAINTANCES, AND CONTACTS.

AND THAT SHIFTED STUFF SO THAT WE GET A LOT OF INFORMATION, INCLUDING NEWS, THROUGH PEOPLE CLOSE TO US, REAL FRIENDS, OR FACEBOOK FRIENDS, OR SOME KIND OF CONTACT LIKE THAT.

AND THE SCIENCE SHOWS THAT PEOPLE TEND TO BELIEVE THINGS MORE WHEN THEY HEAR THEM FROM PEOPLE THEY TRUST.

AND SO THIS IS A PERFECT ENVIRONMENT, FOR THE TRANSMISSION OF RUMOR.

YOU HEAR ANYTHING ON FACEBOOK, YOU HEAR IT FROM SOMEBODY YOU KNOW, AND YOU CREDIT OR YOU THINK, "OH, I'VE GOTTA PASS IT ON TO SOMEONE I KNOW," AND THERE'S YOUR FRIEND LIST.

ADD TO THIS ALGORITHMS THAT HAVE THIS MACHINE INTELLIGENCE THAT FEEDS YOU MORE CONTENT, LIKE THE CONTENT THAT YOU JUST SAW AND INTERACTED WITH, BY CLICKING ON IT, BY SHARING IT, SOMETHING LIKE THAT, YOU HAVE AN AMPLIFIER.

SO IN THIS ENVIRONMENT, IT'S ABSOLUTELY INEVITABLE THAT YOU WOULD GET LARGE SCALE RUMOR, CONSPIRACY THEORY AND OTHER OTHER CRITTERS.

JASON HIBBS: AND AT OHIO STATE, I ASSUME MOST OF YOUR STUDENTS ARE PROBABLY IN THEIR EARLY 20S.

DO YOU FEEL THAT YOUNG PEOPLE ARE MORE OR LESS SUSCEPTIBLE TO FALLING FOR THIS?

YOU KNOW, ARE THEY BEING EXPOSED TO CONSPIRACY THEORIES ON TIKTOK?

MERRILL KAPLAN: THEY ARE.

I DON'T KNOW WHETHER THEY'RE MORE OR LESS SUSCEPTIBLE.

IF YOU ASK THEM, THEY SAY "OH, CONSPIRACY THEORIES, THAT'S A BOOMER THING."

AND IF YOU IF YOU ASK OLDER PEOPLE, THEY WILL SAY, "WELL, THE KIDS ARE ON TIKTOK, AND THEY'RE BEING FED ALL THIS NONSENSE."

SO THINGS DIFFERENT RUMORS CIRCULATE AMONG BOOMERS THAN CIRCULATE AMONG YOUNG PEOPLE JUST BECAUSE THEY'RE IN DIFFERENT PLACES.

BUT I DON'T KNOW IF THERE'S IF THERE'S THERE'S ACTUAL WORK, ACTUAL STUDY ABOUT WHO IS WHO SUBSCRIBES TO MORE OF THESE.

DR STEVEN HASSAN: SO IF I CAN, IF I CAN ADD IN SOME COMMENTS.

SO WHAT'S SO DIFFERENT NOW IS THAT DATA HAS BEEN COLLECTED ON PEOPLE AND AND AND THERE ARE SOMETHING LIKE 5000 DATA POINTS ON EVERY VOTING AMERICAN.

AND THE ALGORITHMS DR. KAPLAN JUST TALKED ABOUT CAN BE DESIGNED TO FIND THE HOT BUTTON POINTS OF ACCESS IN PEOPLE'S PSYCHOLOGY, WHETHER THEY'RE, YOU KNOW, PRO GUN, OR THEY'RE ANTI ABORTION, OR THEY'RE PRO BLACK LIVES MATTER OR WHATEVER.

AND WHAT I LEARNED IN MY RESEARCH FOR "THE CULT OF TRUMP" WAS THERE'S THIS THING CALLED FOURTH GENERATION WARFARE, WHICH WAS A MILITARY THEORY THAT WAS WRITTEN UP IN THE 80S BY A GUY NAMED WILLIAM LIND, AND IT'S PSYOPS AND IT'S DESIGNED TO DE LEGITIMIZE SCIENCE EXPERTS, TRUTH INSTITUTIONS TO CREATE CONFUSION AND CONFLICT DELIBERATELY, IN ORDER TO MAKE PEOPLE MORE SUSCEPTIBLE TO INDOCTRINATION INTO AUTHORITARIANISM.

AND SO, THERE WHAT I'M TRYING TO CONVEY TO YOUR LISTENERS IS, THIS IS NOT JUST A BENIGN EVOLUTION OF STORYTELLING AND THE HOAXES AND CONSPIRACY THEORIES, THERE ARE ACTUAL STATE ACTORS LIKE RUSSIA.

AND I SHOULD SAY THAT AMERICA AND THE CIA HAVE DONE PSYOPS AND FOURTH GENERATION WARFARE ON OTHER COUNTRIES.

IT'S NOT THAT WE ARE LILY WHITE, BUT THERE ARE ALSO CHRISTIAN RIGHT ACTORS THAT HAVE PAIRED WITH THIS GUY, WILLIAM LIND, AND ARE DOING IT FROM WITHIN TO PROMOTE A CHRISTIAN NATIONALISM DOMINIONIST IDEOLOGY WHERE THEY WANT TO BREAK DOWN THE SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE, THEY WANT TO DIMINISH THE POWER OF FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, AND FOR THEIR OWN GOALS, WHETHER IT'S BECAUSE THEY HAVE FOSSIL FUELS, AND THEY DON'T WANT REGULATIONS TO STOP GLOBAL CLIMATE CRISIS.

DIFFERENT PEOPLE HAVE DIFFERENT AGENDAS, BUT THEY WERE ALL UNITED ON THEIR AUTHORITARIANISM.

AND UNFORTUNATELY, OUR DEMOCRACY IS SO VULNERABLE, BECAUSE WE WANT FREE SPEECH.

AND BECAUSE THERE'S BEEN SUCH AN INFILTRATION OF AUTHORITARIAN GROUPS THAT ARE BUYING POLITICIANS AND CORRUPTING THE POLITICAL PROCESS.

SO WE'RE IN A BIT OF A WAR FOR DEMOCRACY, TO EDUCATE CITIZENS TO UNDERSTAND WHAT'S HAPPENING, TO NAME IT AND THEN WE NEED TO LEGISLATE WE NEED TO GO AGAINST THE BAD ACTORS AND HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE.

JASON HIBBS: AND DR. HASSAN, BEFORE WE GO, I HAVE TO ASK YOU ABOUT THE MOONIES.

HOW DID YOU BECOME A LEADER IN THAT?

HOW DID YOU GET INVOLVED IN THE FIRST PLACE, BECOME A LEADER AND THEN ESCAPE?

DR STEVEN HASSAN: SO I WAS AN EXTRA HONOR STUDENT AND WENT TO COLLEGE ONE YEAR EARLY AND WAS A POETRY CREATIVE WRITING MAJOR AND HAD NO INTEREST IN CHANGING RELIGIONS OR LEAVING MY LIFE.

BUT I WAS SUSCEPTIBLE BECAUSE MY GIRLFRIEND DUMPED ME ABRUPTLY.

I WAS SITTING IN THE STUDENT UNION CAFETERIA AND THREE WOMEN PRETENDING TO BE STUDENTS FLIRTED WITH ME.

AND THAT BEGAN MY RECRUITMENT INTO A RELIGIOUS, YOU KNOW, POLITICAL RIGHT WING FASCISTS CULT, THE MOONIES.

I REMEMBER EVEN ASKING THEM, ARE YOU PART OF A RELIGIOUS GROUP?

AND THEY LOOKED ME STRAIGHT IN THE EYE AND SAID, OH, NO, NOT AT ALL.

AND HOW I INCREMENTALLY GOT INVOLVED WAS I WAS ANSWERING THEIR QUESTIONS ABOUT MY BACKGROUND, NOW THEY CAN PEOPLE CAN BUY INFORMATION ON PEOPLE ONLINE ON THE DARK WEB.

BUT THEN YOU HAD TO ASK PEOPLE, I WAS TELLING THEM ALL ABOUT ME AND HOW TO MANIPULATE ME.

LONG STORY SHORT, I WAS LURED TO AN ISOLATED RETREAT FOR THREE DAYS, NO SLEEP, AND INDOCTRINATED AND CAME TO BELIEVE THE MESSIAH WAS ON EARTH, WORLD WAR THREE WAS GOING TO HAPPEN.

AND I WAS BEING SELECTED BY GOD TO SAVE THE PLANET.

AND I THOUGHT IT WAS NUTS.

AND THEY WANTED ME TO STAY FOR THE NEXT WORKSHOP FOR A WEEK.

AND I SAID, NO, I'M GOING HOME.

I DID GO HOME.

MY PARENTS WERE LIKE, WHERE WERE YOU?

YOU LOOK LIKE YOU'RE ON DRUGS.

I SAID, I DON'T THINK THAT THEY PUT ANY DRUGS IN MY FOOD.

AND MY MOM WAS LIKE, WELL, LET'S GO TALK TO THE RABBI.

LIKE THEY DIDN'T KNOW WHAT TO DO TO HELP ME.

AND I WENT TO TALK TO THE RABBI AND HE DIDN'T KNOW WHAT TO SAY TO ME AT ALL.

AND I HAD WHAT I THOUGHT WAS A SPIRITUAL EXPERIENCE SAYING THAT GOD WANTED ME TO BE IN THE MOONIES, BUT IT REALLY WAS A POSTHYPNOTIC SUGGESTION, I BELIEVE, AFTER THE FACT.

JASON HIBBS: ANYWAY, I'M SORRY.

WE GOT ABOUT 30 SECONDS LEFT.

HOW DID YOU MAKE IT OUT OF THERE?

DR STEVEN HASSAN: I FELL ASLEEP AT THE WHEEL OF A VAN DUE TO SLEEP EXHAUSTION, DROVE INTO THE BACK OF A TRACTOR TRAILER TRUCK.

I CALLED MY SISTER AND IT LED TO A DEPROGRAMMING AND AFTER FIVE DAYS, I STARTED THINKING AGAIN AND I REALIZED I HAD BEEN BRAINWASHED.

JASON HIBBS: SO DR. HASSAN FINAL WORD IN ABOUT 20 SECONDS IF SOMEONE HAS FAMILY MEMBERS WHO THEY ARE CONCERNED ABOUT, WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THEM?

WHAT SHOULD THEY DO?

DR STEVEN HASSAN: I JUST WANT TO SAY LOVE IS STRONGER THAN MIND CONTROL.

AND IF YOU'VE CUT OFF YOUR FAMILY MEMBERS AND FRIENDS BECAUSE THEY'VE GOTTEN INTO THE CULT OF TRUMP OR QANON OR SOMETHING, I RECOMMEND LEARN, EDUCATE YOURSELF.

I'VE WRITTEN A LOT OF BLOGS AND DONE VIDEOS.

AND REACH OUT TO THEM AND SAY I MISS YOU.

AND, AND AND START TO BUILD BRIDGES AGAIN BECAUSE THERE'S A PART OF THEIR MIND THAT WANTS HELP.

IF YOU CAN DEVELOP RAPPORT AND TRUST AGAIN, THEY'LL TELL YOU HOW TO HELP THEM TO GET OUT.

JASON HIBBS: THANKS TO BOTH OF YOU.

WE COULD GO ON AND ON ABOUT THIS VERY INTERESTING TOPIC.

THAT'S IT FOR THIS EDITION OF BACK STORY.

WE'LL SEE YOU NEXT TIME.

ANNOUNCER: BACKSTORY IS MADE POSSIBLE IN PART BY KEYBANK WITH ADDITIONAL SUPPORT FROM THE LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS, AND BY VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

(MUSIC)