♪ ♪ (theme music plays) RUBENSTEIN: I'm honored to be here today at the Robert H. Smith Auditorium of the New York Historical Society with Doris Kearns Goodwin, the Pulitzer Prize winning author.

We're going to talk about her book on leadership.

So, let's talk about your background a little bit.

You got a PhD at Harvard.

But before you completed your PhD, uh, you applied for a White House fellowship.

How did you actually get the work at the White House and how did you almost lose your job?

GOODWIN: Yeah, it's, it's a very curious story and it turned out all right but it looked like it was going to be a big problem.

Um, when we got selected, there was a dance at the White House.

While I was selected, I had been a graduate student at Harvard, and like many young people active in the anti-Vietnam War movement, I had written an article with a friend of mine about how to remove Lyndon Johnson from power in 1968.

(laughter).

And we sent it to "The New Republic" and we heard nothing.

We danced with Lyndon Johnson and then, like several days later, comes out this article.

And the title said it all: "How to Remove Lyndon Johnson".

It was a ridiculous argument.

So, I thought he would try and kick me out of the program, but instead surprisingly he said to the staff, 'cause they were so upset about this, "Oh, just bring her down here for a year and if I can't win her over, no one can."

So, I ended up going to work for Lyndon Johnson the last months of my White House fellowship and then stayed with him another half year.

And then, most importantly, accompanied him and lived at the ranch to help him on his memoirs.

When I was at the ranch he was so sad because he knew that the war in Vietnam had cut his legacy in two, but he had done so much.

And, I now realize, 50 years later, even more than I did then as a 24 year old, what he did.

I mean, Medicare, Medicaid, aid to education, civil rights, voting rights, NPR, PBS, um, immigration reform, HUD.

I mean, it's an extraordinary legacy and he would have been one of the great presidents, but for the war in Vietnam.

RUBENSTEIN: You wrote your own book on Lyndon Johnson, and then after that book you wrote a book on the Fitzgerald's and the Kennedy's.

And then after that you wrote a book, about the, FDR and his wife, and that won the Pulitzer Prize.

And then you, after that, you wrote a book about, uh, Abraham Lincoln and that book, uh, was made into a movie called "Lincoln".

But I saw the movie and here's what I didn't understand.

The book took you 10 years to write.

It's, I don't know, 600 or 700 pages or so.

The movie is about only four pages.

How did that come about and how did Steven Spielberg happen to option your book for a movie?

GOODWIN: He optioned the rights for it before I'd finished the book.

So I was only half way through and he got two script writers to work on it.

Um, but neither of those scripts did Daniel Day-Lewis, who always knew he wanted to be his Lincoln, say yes.

So finally the book came out and he got Tony Kushner to write the script.

And what he wanted was something that would show the Lincoln who was a politician, the Lincoln who was funny, the Lincoln who was idealistic.

And so he had to go vertical, which means the plot had to be shorter, but the idea had to be that you're going to see somebody who knew how to deal with politics.

And that's what the fight for the 13th Amendment was.

So, I was thrilled with the way it was designed, because it made Lincoln come alive.

And then, of course, I fell in love with Daniel Day-Lewis as well and, um, we texted each other.

My kids kept teasing me that I learned to text so I could keep in touch because I still am friendly with Daniel.

RUBENSTEIN: So, after that book was completed, you did the work on Teddy Roosevelt and William Howard Taft, and, uh, the Muckrakers, uh, and that book, "Bully Pulpit," uh, was your next book, and uh, usually you wrote books about individuals or maybe two people, but why did you decide to write a book on leadership, and what is the essence of that book?

GOODWIN: Each time I moved from one president to the other, I felt like it was leaving an old boyfriend behind, I felt a little guilty when I move all those guys books out, the new ones would come in, so I thought, "Well what if I just take my four guys that I care about the most, and look at them through the lens of leadership?"

When I was in graduate school, at Harvard, we used to stay up at night asking big questions, "Where does ambition come from?

Does the man make the times or the times make the man?"

And I realized that I'd been interested in leadership all along.

RUBENSTEIN: In each of the four presidents you've written about in this book, uh, Abraham Lincoln, uh, Teddy Roosevelt, Franklin Roosevelt, and Lyndon Johnson, you pointed out they have some similarities, all of them had childhoods where it might not had been anticipated that they'd become President of the United States, so let's talk about Abraham Lincoln.

What was his childhood like?

GOODWIN: Oh, it's hard to imagine that Lincoln was able to get through that childhood.

I mean, it wasn't simply that he was poor, much more importantly it was that his father really didn't believe that Abraham's desire to learn and to read books was worthwhile, he needed the kid to be working on the farm; he thought it was a sign of laziness for him to be reading all the time.

He only was able to attend school less than 12 months altogether; he'd be taken out to work on the hardscrabble farm, but he just loved reading so much, that he scoured the countryside for books.

When he got a copy of the "King James Bible" or "Aesop's Fables" he was so excited he couldn't eat, he couldn't sleep.

Emily Dickinson once said that the books are like a frigate to taking lands away to places you could never go, and that was true for him through literature, he began to dream of another way of life, than his, and somehow, through education of himself, he left when he was 21, you had to stay with your parents at that time until you're 21, you work off being a kid, and then he went to New Salem, Illinois, and he's there, he's 23 years old by the time he gets there, and he decides after being there for six months that he's gonna run for the state legislature.

And he's hardly known, he says, "I know I'm not known; I have no popular relations to recommend me, but I promise you that if I get this job, I will do everything to honor your trust."

He said it much better than I'm saying it and then, he says, um, later, he said, "But I tell you, even though it's very possible I'm not going to win, and I've been so disappointed by my life, I won't be too much to grin," but he says, "I will tell you if I lose, I'm going to come back five or six times and try again."

So, in other words, beware, I'm gonna come back; and he does lose, but he doesn't lose his ambition, and he comes back the second time, and by that time, he knew people in the county and he easily won.

He was an extraordinary person, if, even if we never known him later, everybody saw the kindness that he had, that he was learning himself, that he was borrowing books, and they all tried to help him, they were part of his upward climb.

RUBENSTEIN: Now, uh, Teddy Roosevelt grew up in New York City, um, from a wealthy family, but did people think that he was a potential president of the United States?

GOODWIN: Certainly not, he had asthma as a child, and it was a very, very serious case of asthma, so that his father used to have to take him out of the night when he couldn't breathe on the horses, just to get the wind in his, in his lungs, and finally, the father worried that he was becoming too much of an invalid; that he was staying in bed too much reading, not participating in activities, and he said, "Teddy, you the mind, but not the body, and without the body, the mind cannot go as far as it could; you must make your body."

So little Teddy says, "I will make my body," and he has a gym set up in his New York house, and he pulls himself up on the bars and he exercises, and he becomes this extraordinarily strong kid, and, and then he goes to Harvard, and he's still somewhat of a socially-awkward person; he only wants to deal with people of his social class, and then he gets asked by somebody to run for the state legislature when he is 23.

And, he had gone to law school, but he didn't really like law school; he didn't like the idea that you're supposed to be objective, he liked to fight on one side or the other.

And so he decides to run for the state legislature, still, pretty much of an elite character, and he said, "I didn't go in to make people's lives better," so, different from Abraham Lincoln, "I just wanted the adventure of being a politician."

But once he gets in there, this is where politics can be such a broadening experience; he goes to cigar factories, in tenements, where kids are living in the making of cigars, he becomes a police commissioner and he walks the streets of New York at midnight, and he develops empathy, he says, "I didn't have it at first," Lincoln had it from the time he was a kid, but Teddy said, "I just became conscious of other people's way of lives, and I wanted to make their lives better."

RUBENSTEIN: He was not predicted to be President of the United States then because he was said that had, he was a bull that brought his own china shop with him because he was so difficult to deal with and wasn't the person who could really get along with other politicians so well, so people weren't saying, "Teddy Roosevelt's gonna be President."

I assume.

GOODWIN: Certainly not, in fact, he, when he first got into the state legislature, he was such a fighter, that he was constantly screaming about his colleagues on the Democratic side, his, his opponents, and, he made headlines all throughout New York state, but then after a while, he couldn't get anything done.

But he was self-aware enough to know, he said, "I realize that I've made myself into an isolated hill; I can't get anything done."

and he restricted then, his histrionic language, he got along with both sides, and he became a politician in a good sense.

RUBENSTEIN: Okay, so let's talk about FDR; he grew up, also, in a wealthy area, a little bit north of uh, New York City, but, what was his childhood like?

GOODWIN: He's the center of his parents' lives, especially his mother's life, and he was a not a particularly good student at Groton, or at, at Harvard, or Columbia Law School, and he goes into a conservative law firm, and he's not even a hardworking, clerk in the law firm.

But then somebody comes to him when he's 28, he's a later bloomer, and they say, "Would you like to run for the state legislature in Duchess County as a Democrat, a safe seat?"

And surprisingly, he says "Yes" they didn't choose him because he had the makings of a leader, they chose him because his name was Roosevelt, and they figured there's a lot of Republicans in the district, they might think he's Teddy Roosevelt too if they're old, but the most important thing, he gets out on the campaign trail, and he led this really insulated life, he was an absolute natural.

He loved it.

He loved listening to people, he loved talking to people, he found his vocation.

RUBENSTEIN: Potential President of the United States in those early days of people think... GOODWIN: No way, no way, I mean, he too had an elitist arrogance to him, um, but, but he was at least was a natural politician, which you could see.

RUBENSTEIN: So, Lyndon Johnson, um, he grew up not in New York, uh, but in Texas, and uh, did people think he had a chance to ever be President of the United States?

GOODWIN: Well probably more than the others; he dreamed of it from the time he was two years old, I'm mean his father was in the state legislature, his grandfather had been somebody in politics, power, he thought was a really interesting thing and he, as a child, wanted to create it, so then he goes to Washington when he's young as Chief of Staff, same age, 23, to a congressman, and he goes in and he figures, now I've gotta figure out who are the young chiefs of staff and the other secretaries of the congressmen, who's the, gonna be my mentor?

So he goes into this dormitory where they're all living, and he goes and brushes his teeth four times every morning so he can start talking to more people, and he takes four showers every evening so he can talk to more people; figure out who is the best mentor, they said he'd been there six months and he knew more than people who had been there for 25 years.

RUBENSTEIN: Potential President of the United States?

GOODWIN: No way.

Tall, skinny guy, no, no way.

RUBENSTEIN: So each of these people also had a tragedy in their life or part of depression that set in, and that, really, could've set them back to the point where they just stop their career.

What was the depressing thing that happened to Abraham Lincoln?

GOODWIN: So what happened to Lincoln is when he was state legislator, he had promised his constituents even in that first handbill, that what he would do is to bring infrastructure projects to the poor areas in, in the community.

You're gotta dredge harbors, you're gonna make roads, you're gonna build rivers, so that poor farmers can get their stuff to market, so that little towns can become big towns, so that prosperity will happen.

And he believed in it, very much.

And he sponsored a big bill, I think maybe a $1 million bill at that time in Illinois for all these infrastructure projects, and Illinois went into a recession; all of these projects were left half-finished, and it brought the state into a debt, and, and it really hurt the whole economy, so he had to say, took responsibility for it, and had to get out of the state legislature.

RUBENSTEIN: He didn't blame anybody else?

GOODWIN: He took the blame, but his career was on a downward slide because of it.

The same winter that that happened, he, um, broke his engagement to Mary Todd Lincoln.

He wasn't sure he loved her enough to marry her, but he broke his word to her, and for him, his word meant everything.

So that meant his word had failed to the constituents and to Mary Todd Lincoln; he fell into a depression so deep, that he didn't leave his room, and all of his friends took knives and razors and scissors away, fearing that he would kill himself.

RUBENSTEIN: FDR, the tragedy that hit him, that, would've probably kept anybody from wanting to be in public life again, at that time, was what?

GOODWIN: So, FDR is in his, uh, still in his 30s; very athletic, goes to Campobello, he goes swimming one day, comes back from the swimming, and feels so tired that he can't even take off his bathing suit, goes upstairs, lies down, and by the next morning, he's paralyzed from the waist-down.

Polio had set in that quickly, and, it was a really hard few months; they weren't even sure he would live, much less they didn't even know for sure what was wrong with him at the beginning, he still believes he's going to walk again, but he's told, "Your upper body, is, is got to be strengthened in order for you to manipulate a wheelchair or get anywhere."

So, years, he works, to strengthen his upper body, he would ask to be lifted from his wheelchair, to be put on the carpet so he could crawl for two hours and strengthen his upper body.

And then he would go up the stairs one at a time, hoisting himself by the banister, sweat pouring down him, until he reached the top, and then they'd have a huge celebration.

The real, real, change in FDR takes place when he goes to Warm Springs and creates this rehabilitation center for other Polio patients; they call them "Fellow Polio's."

And he becomes Doc Roosevelt, he's the Spiritual Director, the therapy guy, he decides that they need fun in their lives again, not just to rehabilitate their limbs, and so they have wheelchair dances, they have polo-tag, they have cocktail parties at night, and I read the oral histories of the guys who went there, the guys and women; they, they felt that life had a purpose again, and this guy who'd been an elitist guy, suddenly becomes much more empathetic than he'd ever been to other people to whom fate had dealt an unkind hand.

RUBENSTEIN: Alright, so what was the depressing event that happened in, uh, Lyndon Johnson's life?

GOODWIN: Interestingly, when we say, "Did anyone see these guys' President's before him?"

When FDR met, um, LBJ in 1937, he said to one of his aides, he said, "That's the guy I would've been if I hadn't gone to Harvard, he's got real energy," meaning he loved, L, he said, "Someday, if the South ever has a President, this guy might be the first southern President."

But, what happens is he, then runs for the Senate in 1941, and he loses because he screws up at the last minute.

They all were buying votes from one another, and you're supposed to not release the votes that you bought, until you know how many you need, but he was so excited that he was ahead, he released the votes in this one county, and the other guy then waited, and was able to release more votes, because you just make up these people who were... RUBENSTEIN: Well he fixed that when he ran for... GOODWIN: He fixed that in '48.

He learned it.

And then he wins, but... RUBENSTEIN: Landslide Lyndon... GOODWIN: He won by 87 votes in, is, four in, in 1948.

He lost by very few in 1941.

Anyway, he goes into a big depression when he loses, and he loses his focus, really, uh, he, he becomes somebody who wants to just get wealth, he becomes more conservative, he turns his back on the New Deal, but meanwhile, he goes up in power.

He wins the Senate in 1948, he becomes the Minority Leader, he becomes the Majority Leader, the most powerful majority leader in the history of the Senate, and he's in his 40s, and he's the youngest one.

And then he has a massive heart attack.

And he wakes up, and he says, "What if I died now, what would I be remembered for?"

The same thing Lincoln had thought and so he goes for civil rights to get a bill through the Senate, the first civil rights bill since Reconstruction, and John F. Kennedy, when he dies, of course, civil rights becomes what, what LBJ wants to do, so he became, he became a person with a purpose as well as power because of that heart attack.

RUBENSTEIN: So, let's talk about, uh, the courageous things that they did when they were President.

So, Lincoln, had many different things he did, but you focus on your book on the Emancipation Proclamation.

GOODWIN: What happens is when, when the war starts, most of the people in the North are fighting for union, not for emancipation.

And Lincoln wasn't even sure there was any constitutional power that he had to do anything about slavery, and he was reluctant, even though abolitionists were trying to push him to do something, until finally, he came to the realization, the war was being lost, I mean, McClellan had lost the peninsula campaign, and he begins to realize that the slaves are helping the southern cause; they're, they're working as Teamsters, they're working as cooks, they're at, hospital attendants, and therefore, he could use his Commander in Chief powers as military necessity to free the slaves and thereby take them away, hopefully, from the southern cause, and make them help the northern cause, so he comes up with the idea of the Emancipation Proclamation, as Executive Order.

RUBENSTEIN: His Cabinet like that?

GOODWIN: Not at first, I mean, at first he has to persuade the Cabinet and the Army, and then the country.

RUBENSTEIN: The Emancipation Proclamation was designed by Lincoln to win the war, and when the war was won, why didn't he just say, "Well thank you, I've won the war," why did he feel he needed the 13th amendment then?

GOODWIN: Because there were no longer be military necessity, the, um, ground on which he had been able to issue the Emancipation Proclamation, and once the war was over, he thought that somebody might decide that the slaves could then not be freed anymore, so he wanted that 13th amendment, so that it was enshrined forever in the Constitution.

RUBENSTEIN: What did Teddy Roosevelt do that was so courageous?

GOODWIN: When he came in, the strife between management and labor was huge, I mean the turn of the 20th century is the time most like ours, I think, in a lot of ways.

The Industrial Revolution had shaken up the economy, much like the Tech Revolution and globalization have done today; first time a big gap had developed between the rich and the poor, immigrants were coming in from abroad.

So what happens is there's a real potential for a revolution as working-class strikes, nationwide strikes, there's violence in the streets, there's bombs, and Teddy comes in only because McKinley has died.

He would never have become President, probably, he was too progressive for the bosses to choose him, and he wants a square deal, for the rich and the poor; wage worker and the capitalist.

So he realizes that government has to get involved; it was a Laissez-faire time, and the big moment of that is this coal strike that's been going on for six months, and in those days, that was the main form of heating in New England, um, but the unions were striking and the coal barons were unwilling to even negotiate with the unions, they wouldn't even sit in the same room with the union guys, so finally Teddy invites both of them to a conference in the White House, first time ever labor and management sat together, and the union guy, Mitchell, suggests, "Why don't we have a presidential arbitration commission, and we'll, we'll go along with whatever they come up with.

And what Teddy did is was he had his stenographer take notes of the whole thing, 'cause the public was unsure about who they cared about, because they were worried about the coal, even though they might have been sympathetic to the laborers' rights.

Anyway, he then publishes the whole meeting, and the coal barons were terrible, so there's a lot of pressure on them to solve, but they still won't go along with what the union guy said, so what does Teddy do?

He goes to JP Morgan, and he says, "How about if you decide that this is what we should do, and you go tell them this is your idea, and because it was JP Morgan suggesting a Presidential commission, they have an arbitration commission, they both agreed on raises and changes in working conditions and the coal strike came to an end.

RUBENSTEIN: FDR, when he came in, he was facing a Depression; what did he do that was so courageous?

GOODWIN: The banks were in, in, in a dying situation, I mean, people had been for months trying to get their money out of the banks; many of the banks had used their deposit money for stocks, and so they lost their money when the stocks came.

Other banks had money, had assets, but when people started taking their money out of the banks, they couldn't, they couldn't give the deposits, so people were waiting in long lines, taking their money home and banks were collapsing in one state after another.

So he calls a euphemistically-named bank holiday the first day he's in office; all the banks are gonna be closed, and he calls Congress into session to get an emergency banking bill, so that they can use federal currency to shore up the weak banks, if, it, as necessary.

But then the important thing is he has to persuade people that they can safely bring their money back to the banks, 'cause they may not believe in this law that's just been passed; in one day, the law was passed.

So, it's his first fireside chat, and it's incredible.

You know, it's the first time he's been on the radio; he's shaking before he goes on and the minute that voice comes on, and he explains to people, that when you deposit your money in a bank, it doesn't just stay there, they use it for mortgages, they use it for businesses, that's the way it works, that's the wheels of industry.

So some of these banks made a mistake and did in the stock market, others really had the money but the, you taking so much out, so he explains, he says, "I promise you now, that safe, safer to put your money in a bank than under your mattress."

And so then the banks are gonna open on that Monday morning, and everybody's terrified, now they've been closed for a week, will everybody come and get their money out again; long lines at all the banks, just as there had been before, but they were putting their money back in, because of what he was able to make them trust in him and trust in the government, then, of course, the 100 days followed, he decides, "Oh, Congress is in session for this emergency banking bill, I think I'll keep them in session; things are going well."

And then you get all of that legislation in the 100 days.

RUBENSTEIN: So Lyndon Johnson, as you point out, becomes President when John Kennedy's assassinated, and he decides to do some of the things that John Kennedy wanted, most importantly, probably, civil rights, uh, was it that difficult for Lyndon Johnson, who's best friends in the Senate, were, well-known segregationists, and he came from Texas, uh, was that hard to push the civil rights legislation through?

GOODWIN: It, he knew that he would be cutting his ties with his closest friends in the Congress and in the Senate, but he made the decision really the night that he was President, and he says right then, "I know what I wanna get done, most, first, I wanna get civil rights, I wanna get a tax bill through, I wanna get education, I wanna get old Harry Truman's Medicare through."

But he made civil rights his priority, and his aides are saying to him "You can't do this, you'll never get the bill through the southern filibuster, the whole congress will be tied up with it, you'll get nothing done; your election is 11 months from now, and you'll be a failed president," and he turns to them and he said "Then what the hell is the Presidency for?"

And he decides that civil rights will be his priority, and then he knows the only way he'll break the filibuster is to get Republicans to join the with the northern Democrats, so he eats and sleeps with Everett Dirksen the Minority Leader of the Republican Party; offers him everything, in those days, you don't have any problems with earmarks, "What do you want, an ambassadorship for somebody, you want me to come to Springfield, you want me to go to Peoria; I'll do anything you want."

But then, finally, he says, to Dirksen; he knows Dirksen wants to be remembered too, so he says, "Everett, you come with me on this bill, you bring some Republicans, and we'll break this filibuster; 200 years from now, schoolchildren will know only two names, Abraham Lincoln and Everett Dirksen."

(laughter).

How can Dirksen resist?

RUBENSTEIN: It worked.

GOODWIN: It worked!

And he gets the civil rights bill through and then he doesn't stop, you know, and then he gets Medicare, and aid to education, and then the next year he gets voting rights through, so.

RUBENSTEIN: Alright, what does it take to be a great President in terms of leadership?

GOODWIN: Well, I think one of the most important things is they understand and acknowledge their errors and learn from their mistakes, um, I think the expansion of empathy is most important where you begin to feel what other people are thinking and feeling, I mean to be able to talk to the people in a language and using the technology of your time, Abraham Lincoln was fortunate that he was such a great writer at a time when the gift for language was valued; your speeches would be printed in full in the newspapers, and then Teddy comes along at a time when the national newspapers are just being born, he could be a Tweeter today, I mean, you know, "Speak softly and carry a big stick."

You know, "Don't hit until you have to, then hit hard."

He had all these little sayings, he even gave Maxwell House the slogan "Good to the very last drop."

So he was able to communicate in that colorful style that was demanded at the time; FDR had the voice, and the intimate style for radio, they all have to be able to do that, Johnson was able to talk to a joint session of Congress because it was his congress, in, in very powerful ways.

So there's communication but my favorite thing that I think people don't recognize, is the importance of being able to replenish your energy, and to, and, get rid of the anxieties, and the pressures you're under, it's something we as a people today are hard put to do because of the iPhones and the e-mail following us everywhere; Lincoln actually went to the theater 100 times during the Civil War; he said that, um, if he hadn't gone, he knew people thought it was peculiar that he was doing this, um, so often in the middle of the pressure, but he would've been killed by the pressure.

Um, Teddy Roosevelt exercised for two hours every afternoon, in the White House, he used to take all of his colleagues along on these ridiculous point-to-point walks where you couldn't go around any obstacle; if you came to a rock, you had to climb it, if you came to a precipice you had to go down.

FDR had a cocktail party every night in the White House, where the rule was you couldn't talk about the War; you could talk about books you'd read, movies you'd seen, gossip about people, as long as the war didn't come up.

And that was the way he was able to relax and after a while, that cocktail party mattered so much to him, that he wanted the people to go to the cocktail party, to actually be living in the White House, ready for the cocktail party.

(laughter).

So his foreign policy advisor Harry Hopkins comes for dinner one night, sleeps over, never leaves 'til the war comes to an end, um, his secretary Missy LeHand is living there, Lorena Hickok, Eleanor's friend, is living there, the Princess from Norway comes and Winston Churchill's there for weeks, and weeks at a time, um, not only enjoying the cocktail party, but the two of them would stay up at night until 2 A.M. talking and smoking.

RUBENSTEIN: Uh, um, Eleanor was so upset with Churchill; spending so much time together that she persuaded the government to buy Blair House, so people like Churchill could have a place to visit.

GOODWIN: Exactly.

So, the only person that didn't relax was LBJ.

And I think it, it wore on him; I mean it, it hurt his energy level, I mean he had a swimming pool at his ranch; I would go to it when I was working on the memoirs, but there was so many floating rafts with floating telephones and floating notepads, you're supposed to be working in the pool; and then he had a movie theater, and he would watch the documentary on Lyndon Johnson and Lady Bird going somewhere, but then the minute the movie came on, he couldn't talk, so he would fall asleep while everybody else watched the movie, but that meant his energy was depleted over time.

RUBENSTEIN: So, if you could have dinner with any one of these people, who would it be?

GOODWIN: I think what I'd love to do is to bring all four of them back to go to the White House right now, and give advice.

(laughter and applause).

RUBENSTEIN: Alright, well, uh... GOODWIN: Wouldn't that be great?

Can you imagine?

RUBENSTEIN: I don't, I don't think we can top that, uh, so, Doris, I want to thank you for a very interesting conversation; your book on leadership.

GOODWIN: Thank you.

(applause).

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