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(Music) Jason Hibbs: Fighting for fairne Today on backStory we are talkin about Equity.

Now this while some say calls for equity will inch us closer to communism while others say we're all creat and it's a long overdue promise of our constitutional de Our guest today to explain this rather complex issue, David Madden, a civil rights law practicing for more than 40 yea Also with a career in the US Army's legal arm.

He's the author of a new book, The Constitution and American R Setting a Course for Lasting Inj He's a volunteer speaker for the Monita Mungo, professor of socio at the University of Toledo.

Her research focuses on social i in the lives of marginalized pe including barriers to educational achievement.

And the Reverend Dr. Willie Perriman, he's the pastor of the Jerusalem Missionary Bap in Toledo and president of the T chapter of the NAACP.

He has years of community servic and leadership experience.

Thanks so much to all of you for being here.

I think on a topic like this, before we start, it's important to define equity, and I want to what equity isn't.

First, specifically, the differe between equity and equality.

And if you will, let me use a school funding exam and see if I've got this right.

Let's say that you have two school districts and you have one that is richer.

The students, the school distric well funded for years.

And then you have another distri that traditionally received far fewer dollars per student.

Well, equality would say that's We need to start funding both of those schools t But equity says to level the playing field and to make u for the years of underfunding, this poorer school district should now get more dollars than the other one.

Is that a decent understanding of of equity?

Dr. Mungo: I'll jump in here.

Oh, yes and no.

Okay.

Because if you explain it in tho Right, then you leave a lot of w for people to argue, especially, you know, the equity and if they don't understand.

R So equity is to take under consi the circumstances for which the or in your example, the school, the school system.

All of the things that they need to, whatever the goal post is.

So, yes, it does does require looking at all of the past thing that they didn't have.

Right.

But it also requires to look at the current and present day.

you know, in essence, not being well funded for a lon has obviously the consequences.

As well as consequences of the neighborhood that the schoo the income of the parents at the that the parents of the children that attend that in their life circumstances.

Ri So equity looks at all of the circumstances of the individual to then try to make them whole.

Right.

Equality, just like you said, just is sameness.

Right.

Give everyone the same amount.

But it doesn't account for for the necessary need of the i Jason Hibbs: Thank you.

Does anyone else want to add to that definition of equity?

Rev.

Perryman: So thank thank yo for allowing us to participate and that all my colleagues are c qualified to discuss this.

But from an individual perspecti we really rally to help make racial at birth a reality.

So what we think of in the context of a social syste such that occurs in politics, government terms of equity and equality have a similar but slightly different meaning.

Inequality refers to scenarios in which all segments have the same levels of opportunity to support the concept of equality, to include providing various levels of support based on individual need or abi That makes sense.

Jason Hibbs: So let me ask we ta you know, just now about school We've heard a lot in the past many years, really, about police reform and criminal I want to ask each of you and.

We can start with David.

What are specific areas in US society where there are major inequitie that need prioritizing, that really need to be addresse David Madden: For me, economics would be the number one priorit The second priority would be edu And I think that those two prior are so coupled that it's diffic to separate them in terms of trying to figure out how are we Wango had said set folks forward from where they are now so that they're competing on an equal basis with everyone Is the reverend indicated there' a difference in this idea of eq It's sometimes characterized as the Constitution is colorbli is justice, Harlan said in Pless versus Ferguson.

But that's not enough, because the Constitution was wr to be a document that protected after the 13th Amendment and the end of the Civil War.

The Constitution protected segre in very late, at least in my li Was it before the Constitution?

In the courts, the various branches of government began to do something to try to a difference in terms not only of the idea of the Con being colorblind, but also writing some of these The thing that I think that we n also bear in mind is do we have a long legacy in this from the standpoint of the operation of the law, the law being pro white?

And what that has meant for our black population is that they have always been tr differently before the law.

They've been treated as property which they were not.

And they've been treated that way by the courts.

In the longer the slavery went o until the Civil War, the more the courts became accus that idea after the Civil War.

The the white retrenchment of ra when the federal troops were wit from the south in 1877.

And the U.S. Supreme Court continued on a path that really the idea of segregation and all the harm that that cause the black population in the Uni And we see that reflected in the police operate and react to bla We've seen it recently in several occurrences.

The whole idea of qualified immunity, the idea that we can defend a police officer who's just killed somebody beca or may not know what the law is when he killed them is absurd.

In one of the things that would really help, for example, in policing is to elimi that idea of qualified immunity and make the police officers belly up to the bar.

Pardon the pun in face the facts for what they have done.

But for me, those are the three If we look we're looking at the the economics, the economics and the standard, the way that w black Americans is, is is is ob It's a sin.

The way that we've t black Americans educationally, I think is very much coupled wit and very much lays the foundati for the economic circumstances of black Americans today.

And then the way the courts in t that the police treat black Ame I think is coupled with all of t that the right and incurrent past governments have held with regard to the wa the government ought to operate in terms of fostering white pri Jason Hibbs: Dr. Mungo, is this just a black and white issue or are there other marginalized communities that should be included in this equity conversation?

Dr. Mungo: No, this is not just and white issue.

People of color in general, blac specifically need to be, you know, brought up to to equitable circumstances in every facet of their life.

It's not just because.

Yes, everything.

I applaud everything that Mr. Madden said.

Spot on.

We need to also be aware that there are oth of color.

Right.

That are also treated in that manner.

Right.

And so you think about terms like the model minority.

Right.

Which is a stereotype when we sa when we think about, you know, Hispanic individuals, there are other Muslims.

Right, There are other people of color here in this country that also improperly.

It's all people who are marginalized in Right.

Race obviously takes the bigger piece of the proverb because that is the way in which we organize social res in our society.

Right.

Race, race, race, everything is about race.

Right But it's it's also anyone who is marginalized who is not a part of that domina Jason Hibbs: Reverend, what say What are some of the main areas that need to be addressed?

Rev.

Perryman: Oh, I think Mr. Madden brought out two very important areas as it economic growth.

One area that is really on our priority list here at the lo and WCP is health care.

And so here a concept that perhaps can be reviewed an who does the health care system So is the issue in many life or death decisions that has to b I would say there's the issue about health equity or is the issue about the health And so some would suggest that h equality is making sure that there are no preventable differences of inputs where health care was a health equity is making su that there are no preventable di and the outcomes.

And so I think health care.

Thank you, Mr. Med.

Also has to be a really high one on the priority list as Bill related to equity versus equalit Jason Hibbs: Yeah.

Relating to that, David, does equity mean that everyone must have equal outcome or simply equal opportunity?

And is that an important distinc David Madden: I'm not sure that' an important distinction for me I think that I go back to the id or the issue that equality is d From the standpoint the equity requires us to take the p and try to write them and make that everyone is brought to a po where they can compete and succ Equally, we eliminate the system within the government, within the courts, within societ within the economics.

That has done the things that it done is a reverend pointed out.

We need we have we've gone we have a long way to come in h There's no question about I can' any area that's really differen where we don't really need to ma to come forward a long way.

I was a military officer for a l Someone once wrote an article in the Atlantic about the Army was the only place where black m could give a white person in ord and they had to obey it.

And so there was this there was this rough tangle of Once Truman had had desegregated the armed forces, there was this rough tangle of trying to make sure that there was equality, not necessarily equality.

And I still don't think we have equity in the military if we look at the number of general officers who are bla If we look at the number of othe that perhaps have not been broug to the point where they are OK. Jason Hibbs: OK, yes.

Yes.

Thank So I'm being told we've got to t a quick break for those of you I know this is a complicated top I read a lot on this before this And, you know, it's still a difficult thing for those of us who didn't grow talking about these things.

So we have some resources, some online resources for those of you at home to go t to learn more about this.

Take out your cell phone, get ready to take a photo of th And we'll be back with more back story after this quick break.

(Music) Jason Hibbs: Welcome back to Bac we're talking about equity today and let's dove right back in, D Why do you think so many people are afraid of initiatives for a more equitable society?

Dr. Mungo: If your answer is in your question, fear, fear, misunderstanding, not being able to to grapple wi the the horrible history of, you know, of others in American and then the consequences of th Right.

That have modern day effects in the lives of people and then of black people specifi I think not understanding that the difference between equality and equity, as Madden brought up there, is this you know, critics of equality like to link it to Marxism, because obviously that's a word that gets everybod all stirred up and hot and both And it's not right.

But if you don't really know what Marxist Marxism is, one, and you don't understand what equity means, then it's ea These are all buzzwords and it's to be afraid, not understanding that equity is a any, you know, that makes people people equal has to involve equity because equity is the precursor to equality.

Right.

You will never be equal if you d the individual circumstances whole.

Right.

What's the word, i There's no way to do that if you account for their circumstances And so I think people are afraid of what that looks like.

Right.

If you're on top of you've always been the winne Right.

Now, all of a sudden, you have to give up.

You think you have to give up some of your pie in order for e to, you know, to have a piece of a piece of the pie, then you're going to be selfish You're not going to want to unde not understanding that.

What is The rising waters raises all shi because equity will rise, will raise all ships.

Right.

But which, you know, critics of equity are very good is throwing the buzzwords in the so that people will just argue in their their their silos and in their echo chambers, as opposed to understanding what that actually means, becau poor people of color, poor black and poor white people would bene from all of those initiatives.

But if you don't understand that like I wrote in the in the Hill if you don't understand that because you've been so socializ to think that race , you know, as a white person, you are bett then, you're not going to see it wait a minute, this initiative may actually help me.

Right.

You don't need you won't partici in that, because for some reaso you know, based off of your race you believe you're better than whatever that initiative is I hope that answers your questi Jason Hibbs: Yes.

I mean, it kind of sounds like you're saying people maybe aren't thinking long term Dr. Mungo: Yeah, they're not thinking long term and they're not thinking deeply because in order to understand, you have to think about the his as well as the future, and then literally look around at all the social equality that highlighted during this global Right.

Like it doesn't take, you a sociologist to point out what is going on.

Right.

It took a pandemic to make the w and look at things like, you know, unfair policing policies, unfair wages, who we consider essential.

Right.

But those are the people you know, issues with health car with food, with food insecurity with housing.

Right.

And those are the people that literally kept people like, you know, everyone on this this in business.

Right.

But they still didn't make a lot And they're still, you know, not still have insecu housing and health care and food issues.

Right.

And so when we don't think about all those issues de and in the future, like you, lik your question asks, then you won't understand equity and you won't see its benefit in your lives no matter what.

You're racist.

Jason Hibbs: You know, David, I think a lot of people see or hear this conversation, but t probably be afraid to say it.

But they see this leading to rep And I'm being blunt here for the betterment of our viewe not to try to pick a fight or to make trashy TV.

But they see checks and mailboxe across black and brown communit at the white taxpayers expense.

Is this part of the solution?

And what what do you say to that David Madden: Well, I can really what I think about reparations.

I think reparations are in order I think that they can be done in multiple ways.

I think that the damage that's b done is so great to the black c to the communities of color, that it's impossible for us to bring them up to that point where they can compete with tha this society expending not only human capital, but mon Jason Hibbs: Dr. Mungo, are we moving in the right dire I mean, as a society, where do you see us going?

Dr. Mungo: So rhetoric is not action, right.

And so and that's really importa So all of us all the executive orders in the wor will not write the wrong until a actually takes place.

So, you know, I could be pie in the sky in rainbows and say, yeah, it's going great because words are there.

But I you know, action has to to take place.

So until, you know, things are actually done to move the needle in the right I can't say yes, we're we're doing great.

Right.

Because that's not the case.

Jason Hibbs: OK, David, you know, it's a touchy t Like I said earlier, a lot of us these are new conversations for a lot of people.

For people who want to understan issue better, but they just don What do you recommend?

David Madden: I very strongly be that our education has failed t from the standpoint of really telling us the history of what happened in this countr The things that happened are ter They're horrible.

I can sit here for the rest of the afternoon, and I kn Mononoke and the reverend put in a litany of things that border on genocide, as I mentioned, for the America but more specifically for the 10 Ten million Africans were brought to the shores of t in the Caribbean in work to deat and feels without any hope of a ever happening for them.

But dea we need to educate the white population about that I'll take I'll just stand up and say that forthrightly.

If we remove that opportunity from the educational system, I'm afraid we're not going to mo as we need to move it.

So the thing that I would say to for me, education is really, really important.

I agree with Dr. Monga.

I don't think any committee in t we don't need another group of to tell us what's wrong.

We know it's wrong.

We can drive down the street and we can see what's wrong with the whole idea of broken windows policing.

The whole idea of the way that w construct highways into black c The whole idea of the things that we have done in terms of diminishing the value and the of black schools is incredible.

We still live in a segregated so and we need to do things to eliminate that segregated soc And we need to do them sooner rather than later.

I'm not sure, given Madison is R in the things that we have goin that this republic is going to last much longer.

Jason Hibbs: Reverend, there's so much divisiveness ri Many of the most outspoken oppon this are white evangelical Chri How can we all get along and have civil discussions abou Rev.

Perryman: Well, I think in order for us to have A level of reasoning together, if I can use that term, I think as a nation, a community, we have to work extremely hard to disrupt inequality, dismantle racism, accelerate a level of crime in k areas, around criminal justice, health care, around it, even around climate and the econ And so I think we have to just raise our level of not only awa but I really believe we need to just roll up our sle and go to work and deal with thi inequality issue around a number Jason Hibbs: Dr. Monga, I'm going to give you the final word in about 30 seco If there's one thing people reme from this conversation, what would you like that to be?

Dr. Mungo: The only way that we confront social inequity is to confront all of the ills that caused it.

Right.

Beginning with, you know, slaver and its consequences and its current effects in the l of people of color or will spec of the descendants of the enslav and then generally people of co The only way we can address that is to confront the history and then work to make it right.

Jason Hibbs: OK, thanks to all o I appreciate all of you for joining us on this this dis That's it for this edition of Ba We'll see you next time.

Announcer: BackStory is made pos in part by KeyBank.

With additional support from the League of Women Voters And by viewers like you.

Thank y (Music)