Announcer: The views and opinions expressed in to the point are those of the hosted, the program and its guests.

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Doni: It seems unthinkable that a trip to a parade could be dangerous, but unfortunately that possibility has become a major concern.

Mass shootings are on the rise with 597 having occurred just this year.

The question is no longer whether these will continue to happen.

Experts are fairly certain that they will.

The question has become how to protect yourself from being a victim.

This is our question today as we talk with former deputy Director of the Ohio Homeland Security, Earl Mack, on... to the point.

You can connect with us on our social media pages or you can email me at doni _miller@wgte.org.

I would love to hear from you.

As you know, if you want to see this episode again or if there are other episodes that you'd like to see, just go to wgte.org/tothepoint I am so excited to introduce to you today.

Earl Mack Most of you have heard his name.

I'm sure he's been around it contributing to this community for a number of years.

He is currently the president of the Buffalo Soldiers, a group that he actually founded that does a ton of community work around helping kids understand the issues connected with violence.

And and as it relates to today's show, how to help us not to become a victim in issues of of mass shooting.

We're also going to talk a little bit about how to make those pesky encounters with police go just a little smoother than than they might otherwise go.

Mr. Mack is an expert on the issue of not becoming a victim of mass shooting.

He is a 40 year law.

He's had a 40 year law enforcement career, were a medic in Vietnam, which I did not know.

Worked for the Ohio Department of Liquor Control.

Most importantly for today's work, you are the former deputy director of Ohio's Homeland Security office.

Welcome.

Earl: Thank you.

Doni: I'm really glad to have you here.

So for those of you who don't know, mass shooting is defined as an incident where four or more people are killed, not including the shooter.

And let me just give you this one fact.

I thought this was pretty interesting.

In 2016, there were 383 mass shootings.

In 2000, 22, that number had risen to 647.

We are at this point at today's taping at 597 mass shootings.

What is going on?

Earl: Well, it just indicates that that this country in the world is just sick.

And and we have so much so many guns, especially in the United States.

But the most important thing is, is is is the mental state of those people that are involved or are are committing these crimes, these mass shootings.

Doni: You know, what's so frightening about that is that if you take a look at the way the legislation is evolving, we are moving away from red flag logs, laws and all of those things that might give us a sense that someone perhaps should be investigated a little bit more closely before they get a gun.

And that makes us at least you think that makes us more vulnerable to these mass shootings.

Earl: Oh, well, most definitely.

I mean, you look at your gun laws in particularly in Ohio.

There's no more CCW anymore.

You don't have to register yourself to, you know, to have the right to carry that weapon.

Doni: You know, I, I didn't think when I heard that, you know, a few years ago, I thought I had misunderstood what I was hearing.

But you are absolutely right.

You don't have to register to carry a gun in Ohio.

Greg That's amazing, Greg.

Earl: And we're finding when police encounter a particular person with a firearm, we're finding that they shouldn't have had it in the first place as what recently happened with the Toledo.

But but there's no more registering yourself to carry a concealed weapon.

Doni: Well, so you might encounter anybody at any time that happens to have a weapon, Correct.

So does concealed mean that you if you're carrying a weapon, it has to be visible or does it or can you still not have it visible?

Earl: Well, when are you going to have it visible or or or not visible with the change in the law?

Like I said, it used to be against the law to carry a concealed weapon, concealed on your person or in your vehicle or without notifying the police department as to that weapon.

However, even in a police stop now, the police still have the right to ask you if you have a weapon on your or in your vehicle.

Doni: And at this point, the police have no way of knowing whether when they stop you, whether you have a weapon or not.

Earl: Absolutely.

And I had a situation a few years ago that that that involved a young man that had a gun in his hand on his left side.

We approached a truck and and it could have been very it could have been very deadly if he hadn't followed orders.

And he told me a few minutes after that stop that I have a gun in my left hand.

Earl: And he was and he was a felon, had just gotten out of prison about, about a month and a half ago prior to that incident.

Doni: Has this this obviously has made police work far more difficult?

Earl: Absolutely.

It's dangerous anyway.

But we both went when the tools we have to find out if a person is armed, when we approach them, are being lessened and we can't use those those particular things as we used to use years ago to make the police.

The police were very, very dangerous.

Doni: Felons are still excluded from from carrying a gun, but the rest of us certainly can.

Great.

And that's that's that's really pretty amazing.

So let's talk for a moment about these mass shootings that are becoming more and more present in our community.

For reasons that I don't think this country has a good handle on, your comment is that we are being challenged with with mental illness.

Earl: Absolutely.

Absolutely.

And that's why it's so important.

Important when we find someone with mental illness, especially if they if they pose a danger to themselves, even in suicides or what have you, because sometimes a suicide person will want to take somebody with them.

And and we need to strengthen our our mental health for those people as well.

And sometimes when we talk about bullying in school and we talk a lot to our kids about bullying, a lot of times you find that that shooter was once involved in bullying.

He was bullied or she was bullied before, and they grew up with that.

But the main thing is that we as a society, we need to be aware of these issues and we need to either seek help or seek or to give information to law enforcement about people that have the potential of doing that kind of harm.

Doni: Absolutely.

Because the time to intervene in a situation like that is before it has.

Earl: Absolutely.

See something, say something.

Doni: See something, say something.

Absolutely.

So.

One of the things, though, you've taught me a lot.

We've we've talked over the years about this issue several times.

And there are things that you've taught me that I use now when I am out in public and I want to talk about some of those things this morning.

So when people are in when they're in a crowded situation, what would you say to them?

Is what should they be doing if they're at that parade?

What's the first thing they should be doing?

Or if they're in that crowded restaurant, what is the first thing they should do?

Earl: Well, the first thing we always talk about, especially if it's in an enclosed area, is when you walk inside, make sure you know where the exit doors are.

Particularly, make sure you scan the room.

If there's if there's a room that have an individual that seated and it's a warm room and they have on a heavy coat, then you bring some some awareness to it as well.

But but the most important thing is be aware of your surroundings.

A lot of us have those gut feelings over here, and that doesn't seem quite right to take those things into account and watch because a lot of things happen because we're not watching.

But a lot of things happen too, because there's people that know this.

There's somebody always know of a person.

They have the potential of being a shooter, but they never disclose that that information, whether it's a parent or a friend.

And those things, we need to disclose those things again, see something, say something.

Doni: Yeah.

Let's break down what you said.

You said an awful lot in those few words.

Very first thing.

Take a look around you.

What are you looking for?

Earl: What?

The first thing you're looking for is exit doors.

Right.

So if something happens, you know how.

How to get out of a place.

The second thing you're looking for when you sit down to talk is someone looks vicious to you.

Like I said, if you're in a restaurant and someone's got on this overcoat and it's not cold in this restaurant and they're looking suspicious, they're they're looking around.

Then you pay attention to that particular person.

You may even want to bring that activity to to an employee as well.

So just always be aware of your surroundings.

Doni: Yeah.

And we have long ago passed the point where we can go in and and not do those things.

We have to do those things.

Earl: Absolutely.

Doni: One of the first things I always do, thanks to you, is to look around, to see where the exit is.

Always see where the exit is.

I never sit also thanks to you with my back to the exit.

Earl: Great.

Good.

Well, and unfortunately, there's a if it's if it's a restaurant in a crowded somebody, somebody's back.

It's going to be to the exit anyway.

But.

But always know where that exit is.

Doni: Right, right, right.

The other thing, too, that I think most people forget to do is to trust their gut.

Folks like you who train on this all the time say trust your God.

Yeah.

Earl: Well, they always say a police officer has this.

This extra sense.

Yeah, that.

That if we see something and it doesn't fit and it adds up to this not fitting, then we become suspicious of that person or that particular surrounding.

But nowadays, you need to teach yourself to be that way because shootings are just happening and unpredictable.

Absolutely.

Doni: Totally unpredictable.

Hold that thought that we're going to go away, But we'll be right back.

And you'll stay with me, right?

Earl: Yes.

Doni: Already?

We will be right back.

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Doni: As always, I'd love to have you connect with us on our social media pages.

I'd also really like to hear from you by email.

You may reach me at doni _miller@wgte.org.

Again for this episode and any others that you'd like to see, please go to wgte.org/tothepoint.

I have.

As you know, if you've been with us Earl Mack with us.

He is an expert in the issue of protecting yourself from all forms of violence, many forms of violence, including mass shootings, which is what we're talking about today.

So again, welcome.

Welcome back.

So we again, as we went as we went to break, we were saying that, you know, we don't trust our gut or, you know, we feel those things and we just say, you know, it's not a big deal.

Somebody else will take care of it.

Wrong thing to do.

Earl: Wrong thing.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Each one of us are really responsible for our own protection first and then the protection of someone else.

Secondly, So we need to trust.

Trust those guys.

When you see something that makes the hair stand up on the back of your head hit like police officers.

Then you need to take some kind of form of action or some kind of awareness and alert somebody about it again.

I keep saying to see something, say something.

Doni: That's right.

Because you can't assume anymore that your environment is safe.

Correct?

Can't assume that.

All right.

So there are lots of different approaches to what you should do if you find yourself in in a mass shooting situation.

But the the three words that continue to come to the top of that discussion are run, hide, fight.

Do you agree?

Earl: Absolutely.

If and that's why you scan the area, there's outside or inside of exit doors.

If something happens, you need to use it to make a quick exit.

The you know, where the exit doors are then run.

If you can't run, then you must high really, You lay on the floor.

Lock yourself in a room, so forth and so on.

If you can't do any of that, then you have to fight.

Doni: You have to fight.

Good.

Actually, I read a study in preparation for my discussion with you that.

That it showed that 65% and 65% of the cases reviewed those people who fought the attacker actually had fewer casualties after the end of that.

Earl: Absolutely.

Doni: But that's an overwhelming thought that you would run toward that person and try and attack him.

Correct.

But the rationale is.

Earl: It's somebody has to do something or we're going to have a massive loss of life.

As you just see recently, if someone would have ran toward that, that that shooter or just pick up something, start throwing at the shooter to then take that shooter's mind off guard, then it stands the chance of saving lives.

But someone has to take action.

If you can't run right.

Doni: It just it it your first instinct is to get out of the way.

It is to get out of the way.

What about hiding?

I read an article that said hiding is a good thing, but it makes you more vulnerable.

Earl: Well, what if.

If you can't run, you've got to hide regardless.

And.

And again, if there.

If, if.

When you scan in a room, if if you see an officer, if you see another door, then then go toward that.

Go inside of an office.

Shut the door.

If he's in a school, they already know what to do.

You're going to lock those door.

Lock the door.

So, so, so high.

And be quiet.

If you can't run, if you can't hide, you've got to fight.

Or more lives are going to be lost.

Doni: And one of the other things, too, is that almost anything can become a weapon.

You know, I it's it's my my, my girlfriends who wear high heeled shoes, you know, in a. Oh, yeah, what a great weapon.

You know, if you need it.

You agree Anything or.

Earl: Anything can become a weapon, especially high heeled shoes.

If there there's incidences where where women have been attacked and that high heel that he was saved, it saved their lives.

That's why.

Doni: I wear.

Earl: It.

Right.

Anything to to to then just that that the shooter off guard shooters expect when they start shooting.

Nothing's going to happen except for the shooting.

If you if you have the element of surprise, you have the element of saving lives as well.

So give that shooter the element of surprise.

Doni: Right.

So the rules are really pretty simple.

It's find an exit.

If the shooter is in the room and in or coming, you're about to be in a situation where there's a mass shooting.

You want to run.

If you can run toward that exit that you that you saw, you want to hide, if you can't run and if you have to, if you find yours, fight, great fight.

Go after them.

Because at the end of the day, you're going to lose more people.

Earl: Absolutely.

Doni: More people if you don't.

Earl: And nowadays you find that that there are people legally carrying firearms.

So and as a few of those incidents have occurred over over a couple of years or so, you see no good guy with a gun and take the bad guy out with a gun.

So, you know, I always say to if you're going to carry a weapon, make sure that you train on that weapon, that you practice with that often, because Target acquisition, as we call it, it has to be Target acquisition.

If not, those bullets are going to go somewhere.

And unfortunately, sometimes you hit an innocent bystander.

Doni: Target acquisition means just making sure you're hitting your target.

Earl: That's your target, making sure you know how to hit that target.

Doni: Make sure.

Yeah.

You know, so this all sounds really good, but you have to be trained on it, don't you?

You would.

So I'm assuming that that you would encourage businesses and every place where people gather to have some sort of plan.

I was interested to hear from a friend this morning that his toddler is being taught how to hide at his daycare, at the daycare facility.

I think that is amazingly having great foresight teaching these children how to protect themselves.

Earl: Oh, yes.

And we have a have a gun program in our schools with our little kids.

We talk to them about that as well.

As you know, not too long ago, we had a ten year old girl that was killed in a car.

Yes.

So we talked to the kids.

If you hear gunfire hit the ground, you know, we want to run away with those bullets.

You can't outrun a bullet.

So we tell the kids, if you're in a car, unbutton a seatbelt and lay flat on the floor.

So, so, so so it's unfortunate that we have to do that nowadays.

But this is a society that we're living in and guns are so prevalent.

And when you get when someone gets angry, they have mental illness.

That's the first thing that they grab because they want to hurt somebody else because they feel hurt.

Doni: Right.

Exactly.

And the sooner the better.

We should start teaching our kids.

Earl: Oh, most definitely.

Like I said, we're we're in kindergarten.

We we have a in our a program that has a cartoon character, you know, that talks about and shows a gun and what to do.

If you see a gun, you run away and tell a grown up, don't touch, stop, don't touch, run away and tell a grown up.

And so we walk into our school.

Sometimes it makes us happy because kids see us walking down the hallway.

They go, Stop, don't touch, run away, Tell it, daughter, because it's a song, right?

Doni: Right.

So for those of you who don't who don't know, the Buffalo Soldiers provide this kind of training to groups that ask ask you to provide this kind of training.

So you do provide active shooter training to any group, correct?

Earl: Yes.

Doni: Yeah.

And the kids, you're really focused on on kids learning this.

Earl: Yes.

Yes.

And I always say to if you learn something, you have to practice it.

Don't just learn something.

It and that's it.

We talk about people ask me all the time, Well, well, how do I practice with a firearm?

Because I can't go to the range All that well.

Right.

Make sure that that firearm is unloaded.

Stand in front of your mirror and point it.

Make yourself the target.

Put the target on you and pull the trigger several times and do that several times a week.

You become very efficient with that weapon because even a police officer that trains when they get in a firefight, 50% of their proficiency goes down.

So, so, so so you should always train yourself.

Even if you have a mirror to look in the then that's what you do.

And unfortunately, we have to tell people this nowadays.

Doni: You know what?

While you're here, I'd like to ask you, I want to change subjects just a little bit, if that's okay with you.

And I want to talk about the rules for behavior when you're it's not the best word is the only word I can think of at this point.

When you encounter a police in a police stop, this is really important information, I think, to share because we've had so many incidents lately of it just going badly and people being killed, policemen being hurt.

It's there.

There are rules around this kind of encounter.

Correct.

Earl: Absolutely.

The three things we talk about in those trainings or seminars is comply now complain later, because you're not going to win on the street.

And and and I don't care how much you got.

This police officer is is wrong.

Doni: I know.

See, that's the thing.

I mean, this is America and I'm about to be real manage you because you pulled me over for nothing and you're asking to look at my car and what did I do and why can't I say that?

Earl: Well, for our kids, that's for sure.

To tell them to do that.

For grown ups, it may be a different story because there's there's rules of engagement of a police officer.

They just can't pull you over.

I want to look in your car, pull you out.

It has to be reason, has to be reasonable suspicion as to as to some some kind of crime that's been happening before our kids and our, you know, in our schools, in our children and in high school driving age, we tell them if you pull over by a police officer, comply, now complain later you're not going to win on the street.

And when you complain, make a complaint to your principal, make a complaint to your parent or make a complaint to the internal affairs.

If you think that that that was wrong.

Doni: Okay.

We only have a couple of minutes left that I want to ask.

So when you say comply, does that mean you have to allow them to search the car if they want to, if they ask you to?

Earl: No.

Again, a grown up, it's a different story.

We're talking about a about our young kids driving vehicles because you get into a conflict with a police officer and that's what that's what you don't want to do on the street.

That as the court case where a grown up, a police officer just can't pull you over and start looking in your car for no reason at all, they have to have some kind of reasonable suspicion as to a crime is being committed.

And then that has to be articulated or they're going to lose their case.

Doni: Okay.

And I get to so I get to say no.

Correct.

I get I get I get to say.

Now, do I get to ask any questions?

Earl: Most definitely.

A police officer should be.

And that's why I love the patrol and I talk about in the other police department with the highway patrol officers are very courteous and they're taught to.

Yes, you ask them a question, they're going to answer your question while keeping it keeping the area safe as well.

If they have any suspicion of anything.

Doni: Right.

So comply.

So I should do as an adult.

I should do what they ask me to do.

I don't have to agree to allow my car to absolutely complain later, complain later.

I can complain to the police department.

I can complain to the school.

I can complain to anybody who will listen.

But I need to complain.

Earl: To the judge if you get cited.

Doni: Okay.

All right.

So and all of these things are just designed to help the law take its course and to help people from help situations not to escalate.

Earl: And to keep you safe on the street or wherever you go.

Doni: Thank you so much for joining us.

Earl: Thank you.

Doni: I really appreciate you.

I really appreciate you.

And I want to say really quickly, if women get this whistle, that this whistle, it's really important.

It's a police grade whistle.

And if you get in trouble, it could mean saving your life.

Thank you so much for joining us today.

We will see you next time.

On to the Point.

Announcer: The views and opinions expressed in to the point are those of the host of the program and its guests.

They do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of WGTE Public Media.

This program was made possible in part by viewers like you.