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Doni: The expansion of intellectual diversity.

The dissemination of knowledge about American constitutional thought and the development of future leaders of the legal profession.

All are promised by the creation of the Institute of American Constitutional Thought and leadership on the campus of the University of Toledo College of Law.

But the development of these institutes on college campuses around the state of Ohio has resulted in significant debate as to their real intention.

Join us as we discuss this matter with Professor Lee Strang, the John W Stettler Professor of law and Values at the University of Toledo College of Law.

I am Doni Miller and welcome to the Point.

Connect with us on our social media pages.

You can email me at doni _miller@wgte.org for this episode and other additional extras.

Please go to wgte.org to the point.

I am so excited to have you with us today, Professor Strang.

There is literally not enough time to tell every to do a proper introduction for you, but I'm going to try.

I'm going to hit the highlights you have.

You joined the US faculty faculty in 2008, Tenured In 2010, I graduated from Iowa Law LLM from Harvard, visiting professor at Princeton, Georgetown, University of Michigan, right at Michigan State.

Michigan State.

Oh, okay.

All right.

I'll forgive you.

And author of dozens and dozens of articles and case books.

Now, you have added to your work as a professor, also of law at the University of Toledo, the development of the Institute of American Constitutional Thought and leadership.

Yeah, I don't know how you find the time to do all of this, but I'm really glad you do.

Lee: Oh, thank you.

Doni: Really So let's talk about the institute.

Lots of discussion around it.

Lots of pros, lots of cons.

First, why don't you so that we're all on the same page.

Why don't you explain from your perspective what the institute does and why it's necessary?

Sure.

Sure.

Lee: So it was okay, I'll step back and just kind of talk about where the idea came from.

So I think that helps.

So oftentimes, if you know the story about something, you can help and understand the context of what that thing is.

So I was teaching at the University of Toledo since 2008, and I have had the opportunity since that time to to be a visiting scholar at two different institutions.

Once was at Georgetown's Law Center, which is Georgetown Law School, and I was a scholar in the Georgetown Center for the Constitution, which is a which is a center kind of an institute, kind of like what the Institute of American Constitutional thought is and my time there in 2015.

So over eight years ago, I involved me getting to see a standard law school with what what how does this how does the center enhance the education of the faculty and the students at that law school?

How is it how does it enhance the academic life?

And I saw many more speakers being brought in.

I saw debates and panels that enriched my life, including on topics that I don't normally research and write about.

But I'm I'm a more well-rounded lawyer because of my exposure to that.

There were additional faculty that were brought to the law center because the Georgetown Law School, because of the center.

So they wanted to come to be part of the center and able to offer their unique perspectives or unique skills or unique courses to the students there.

And then the third, the center sponsored all kinds of academic events.

It sponsors an annual symposium.

It sponsors an annual at the U.S. Supreme Court, an annual lecture.

And just the enrichment that I received there was wonderful.

So I came back to University of Toledo, and we continued teaching and writing and doing all those good things.

And then I had an opportunity to spend a year at Princeton as a visiting scholar.

And I saw throughout that entire year how the James Madison program so kind of like the Institute of American Constitutional thought.

How did it enhance the the academic experience of students and faculty at Princeton?

And so when I came back from that, I thought, I want to do that at my university because I just saw how how much more richer the academic life was at those respective institutions, which are great institutions in their own right.

Right.

And I thought I want to do that for our faculty and students as well.

So starting four years ago, I began having conversations with my law school administration, the university administration, the foundation, which is the fundraising arm of the university, to to develop the concept and then ultimately to try and sell the concept to different potential supporters, including, for example, alumni, people who weren't alumni but were interested in the idea of the of the institute and then also the state legislature.

Doni: So so one of the challenges, I think, for people who hear that story is that the first thing that comes to their mind is, well, on all of those things, things that universities should be doing anyway, and especially law schools.

Lee: That's a great question.

And in universities, law schools do do that, right?

So universities, law schools do offer classes, they do offer programing, They offer a wide variety of viewpoints, or at least they should do that.

And so this isn't to say this institute, just like the Georgetown Center and the James Madison program, aren't saying that Princeton isn't a great university because it is one of the best universities in the world.

It's that here's an additional opportunity for enhancement.

I think there's kind of three ways in which those centers and in particular the institute will enhance the university of Toledo.

So it's not to say that there's gaps or lacking in the university.

It's this is this is like icing on the cake.

This is this is making a good thing even better.

So one thing is having a place that's intentionally focused on including a wide variety of viewpoints.

So so when you're teaching history, you're doing history as classes, you're doing history as as a scholarship, and you're also doing history from a wide variety of perspectives.

Right?

But as one part of this other project that you're running, which is the history department, the point of the Institute of American Constitutional thought is going to be intentionally to be a space for a wide variety of of viewpoints on important legal and policy issues.

Doni: So so but one of the one of the challenges that I think you have is as well is the perception that everyone has and the perception is solidly held by a number of people who've been watching this process that you are in fact using the institute to support conservative extreme right wing, if I might add, thought that that you really are not supporting a wide range of views there.

There's already a platform available for a wide range of views, but that this institution is designed to do something very different than that, and that is to support Anti-Woke theory.

Yeah, well, what would you say?

Yeah.

Lee: So I think when you say two things, right?

So if you're looking at a phenomenon and you try to say, what is that phenomenon, especially if it's a human created organization, you ask, well, what is the mission of that organization?

So if you look at and you actually read part of the mission in your territory comments, and there's nothing in that mission that I think anybody from any viewpoint would say is inappropriate mission, it's to have an intentional space for a wide variety of viewpoints that's in the mission, in the legislation, that's also in the mission in the concept paper that I wrote in cooperation with many other aspects of the university.

Second, the institute hasn't done anything yet, right?

So the Institute is in the planning process because the legislation just passed to both create and to fund the institute.

So we now have the kind of metaphorical space of the Institute, and now we also have the resources to do the things to advance the institute's mission.

And so just give you one kind of small example of one of the things that we're planning.

We're hoping in the fall because of the short time constraints to focus on programing in the fall and the programing is going to be focused on two themes.

So one theme is conversations on the Ohio Constitution, and the other theme is going to be conversations on civility.

And so the conversations in how Constitution, one of the things that we're looking to do is to have both the chief justice of the Ohio Supreme Court and then the the ranking member.

So, you know, they don't run basically on parties, but a person from both different political perspectives have a conversation kind of like you and I are having at the law school about what their respective views are about.

What's the role of the Ohio Constitution for the American people.

And so so the program is going to be intentionally with a wide variety of viewpoints in the spring.

One of the things we're planning is a symposium.

The symposium will have we don't know what the topic is yet.

We're still working through that.

But the symposium will have scholars from a wide variety of viewpoints on that.

So if somebody is pre-judging the Institute based on what, what, what, what it hasn't even done yet, that means that they're just acting on limited information.

Doni: Well, and that may be true, but I think part part of the concern are comments that have been made from folks like your partner, Macaulay.

Representative.

Lee: You mean Senator Robert Connolly.

Doni: Yes.

Thank you for that.

Who has talked about colleges presenting a fairly liberal view and that this proposal being the antithesis of that.

And I think that's where some of the pushback is coming from.

So I don't know that people are actually prejudging.

I do think that they are, though, responding to information that they've been given.

And there are real concerns about using college campuses to push any political position, quite frankly, on the extreme right or extreme left or left or right at all.

So and there's also concern right now about whether this is the right time, Professor, for this.

When you have cuts in college funding across the nation.

Lee: So when you look at the institute, one of the things that you've been pointing out is the handful of criticisms that have been publicly articulated about the institute.

I spent about some time with the with the more than handful of faculty, current students and former students who were publicly talked about the value of the institute would bring to their experiences.

So think about being a lawyer.

So when we are lawyers, most of us don't have the have don't have the ability resource wise to pick and choose our clients.

So our clients come to us if they've got a problem.

And we need to articulate as lawyers the arguments that are most likely to advance our client's interest and oftentimes we don't agree with those clients.

I've personally had clients who I thought were kind of unsavory individuals, and and it's part of the legal system is that everybody gets their say and then the legal system decides it tries to approximate justice by having a neutral judge decide which arguments are the best.

And so the Institute for American Constitutional Thought is going to provide a wide variety of viewpoints and help model for students what it's like to have a robust disagreement with somebody who you're on the other side with, but still to treat them as an individual, to treat them with respect and many students, current students, former students, current faculty have said that's a value added for the university.

Doni: And it feels like to me that you're creating a college within a college.

I mean, it seems to me that the things that you're talking about and I'm not trying to diminish the value of what you're doing at all.

I'm simply trying to understand.

It feels to me that you're replicating the responsibilities that universities already have.

When did we begin to not be civilized in inside of our inside of our universities or inside of our universities?

Lee: When did we begin to think that it was important to segregate the idea that freedom of thought is important?

I mean, it's baked in to what we learn in law school, isn't it?

It's supposed to be, yeah.

And and I think to some degree it is.

But but just like in any human institution, you know, the law school is trying to help people learn property, is trying to help people learn how to file a motion.

So so there's a limited amount of human capital in other capital to be able to do those those those core things that go on and help me train the lawyer.

Doni: The best way to do it.

We got to go.

We got to go.

Just a second, though.

Stay with me.

We'll be right back.

Okay.

All right.

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Lee Strong, who is the John W Stettler Professor of law and values at the University of Toledo College of Law.

We're talking about the implementation of the Institute of American Constitutional Constitutional Thought Leadership Center.

That is planned for the University of Toledo College of Law and is in your hands in terms of getting that center developed and implemented.

And the university is very, very lucky to have you doing this work.

We have lots and lots to talk about.

Not nearly enough time to get through this complicated but important subject.

Today we left with my asking you the question as to whether this institute is the right way to really approach some of the issues that you think need to be challenged at your city.

Lee: So the way you think about it is when you look at most major universities like University of Toledo, they have a variety of institutes that that that focus on one particular aspect of the broader university's mission.

So, for example, the University of Toledo has the Jack Ford Center of Urban Affairs, which focuses on one aspect.

And so the same question might be asked, Well, isn't the geography department doing isn't there isn't the Department of Urban Planning doing that?

And the answer is yes, they're doing all of those things.

But the center, as a particular value added, including resources and a space where this aspect of the mission is highlighted.

Same with the Institute for American Constitutional thought.

It's taking the value the university currently offers to students and provides additional resources and structure to enhance one particular aspect of what that what the students and faculty are receiving.

Doni: So what would you say, Professor, to those folks who say in terms of priority for the University of Toledo College of Law, this probably should not be it right now we have significant issues in the bar passage rate.

I think there was a 34% passage rate in February, a 61% passage rate in July, that there are issues with enrollment and funding and all kinds of things that are fundamental to the operation of a law school.

Should we be using the talents of someone like yourself to focus on something like this at this time?

Lee: Yeah.

So your point about there being pressures on diversity of Toledo College of Law apply not just to the College of Law, but the broader university, in fact, applied to most universities in the United States today.

So if the reason is that universities are under pressure, therefore we should never do another value added at most universities other than Harvard and University of Michigan, we wouldn't be doing any values added.

Doni: Okay, but that's quite a question.

Lee: I agree with, so I'm just putting some background to it.

Okay.

So so that argument I think is too strong because it would actually preclude a lot of the value added that happens currently at the University of Toledo and other universities as well.

So so what does this what does this university offer?

What does this institute offer to University of Toledo students?

It offers classes that otherwise wouldn't exist.

So people might think at home that, of course, lawyers in Ohio learn the Ohio Constitution and lawyers in Indiana learn the Indiana Constitution.

But that's not true.

So the institute, one of the classes that it's hoping to offer, assuming that the scheduling works, is a class in Ohio constitutional law.

So from the students wouldn't have wouldn't have had before.

But it's really important for lawyers when they're practicing in Ohio, the programing.

So your city, of course, does some lecture series and I participate in some of those as well, and that's great.

But this is going to offer additional exposure for to our students, to great lawmakers, to great jurists, to great attorneys that they otherwise wouldn't have exposure to.

Doni: Why wouldn't they otherwise have exposure to that?

Lee: Because that's currently not happening.

And so, so.

Doni: So so couldn't a university just bring those folks in?

Lee: I don't think it has.

So the answer is, I guess theoretically, yes.

Right.

But it hasn't.

And so it takes it took it took the vision for the mission for this institute to be able to provide both the space and the resources to be able to do these things that the university currently isn't doing, not because it doesn't want to.

I don't think just because it's got other things on its plate.

And so this is this is something that's going to enrich the experience of all of our students.

And the last way is thinking of the student experience.

So the students will have people who would mentor them, mentor them.

You know, when it comes to a research paper, mentor them towards how to how to graduate from law school, mentor them in the professional opportunities, but also one of the things the institute's going to focus on is helping facilitate students with the researching and writing, which the philosopher already does.

University already does that, right.

But this is additional resources, an additional focus on researching and writing, which I think most people would say is something that would be a value added to the law students and university students generally.

Doni: You know, one of the one of the pieces of the legislation and the description and the mission calls for the focus on intellectual diversity.

But I could not find a definition of intellectual diversity in this context.

Can you give me.

Lee: Sure.

Doni: That.

Lee: Yeah, So the University of Toledo want, as part of its mission statement, as part of its commitment to diversity, is committed to actual diversity.

And so so the same that that I don't I don't think it's a term of art, but it's a conventional term that people use to describe approaching issues and subjects from a wide variety of viewpoints.

And so think about the things that American lawyers will have to engage in, things that that have occurred recently, right?

So a major issue on affirmative action, a major issue on abortion.

And Americans in Ohio, Americans throughout the United States have different views about many aspects of those opinions and other issues.

And so the institute is committed to making sure that our law students and our university students are exposed to all viewpoints or all major viewpoints on those important legal issues and those important policy issues that face Americans generally.

And then there's, I think, an additional value as well, which is that, you know, one of the things that Americans, the polling data suggests are worried about the political polarization in the United States, that we divide each other politically.

We go to different churches, we go to diff, we live in different zip codes.

We we, you know, read different books.

And and that's a challenge facing facing our political community.

And one of the things that the institute is going to work on doing is modeling the ability to have disagreements, civil disagreements, but in a way that respects each other as citizens, as part of a common enterprise.

And part of that common enterprise is our common U.S. Constitution and our common Ohio Constitution.

We all share that, although we disagree about what it means and how to approach it.

And this would be a way to model that both for law students and undergraduate students as well.

Doni: So you would say to people who are listening to you today that this really is not about right ideology or the left ideology.

Lee: This is about all viewpoints coming together in a civil way that is supposed to be the heart of the academic enterprise, right?

The academic enterprise is in law.

We have workshops and the workshop person will come with his or her perspective and then they'll be debates and discussions that and that person comes out richer.

The people in the audience come out richer.

And this institute is focused on making sure that all people are richer because of the discussion that we've had.

Doni: So what would you say to those folks who are saying, you know what, He's making a really good point, but I'm really concerned about the nexus between what you're doing at the University of Toledo and House Bill 83 oh.

Lee: Senate Bill 82, Senate.

Doni: Bill 83.

Thank you for that correction, which was which was a pretty which was a pretty interesting and extraordinarily provocative legislation.

It banned such things as mandatory diversity training, prohibited strikes by faculty prohibited let me see prohibited institutions from taking particular positions on things like abortion and and diversity and all of those kinds of things.

And your work has been looking at your work specifically with the creation of these institutions around the state.

Lee: And people should know that the University of Toledo is not the only place where this is happening.

That's what is happening at Ohio State.

And there are many around the country as well as well.

But this one in Ohio has been connected with Senate Bill 83, which is really, I think, perhaps does a disservice to what you've told us today and certainly is contentious.

What would you say to those folks?

Lee: So I think the connection that people draw between the Institute of American Constitutional thought and the four other centers being developed around Ohio public universities and SB 83 is a genealogical connection because one of the co-sponsors for what became the Institute of American Constitutional thought in SB 83 is Jerry Serino.

SB 83 was introduced, I don't know, sometime last fall.

Yeah, right.

I've been working on this for four years, so.

So this project predated SB 83.

This project, as I described, the background for it is committed to the mission, which is the mission that the law school and the university of Toledo agree with, which is to provide a forum for a wide variety of viewpoints on all kinds of issues.

And SB 83, as you said, was controversial.

SB three continues to move on through the state legislature.

So so it is both, in fact, and then by background, two separate phenomenon.

Doni: Okay.

Thank you for that.

Thank you for that explanation.

So for people who are excited to see this coming, what can you tell them?

When when do you expect to have it up and moving?

And how does one is it a separate it's for students at the law school.

Lee: It's for well, so there's so the goal of the institute is to make the the the experience of students and the immersive fleet hope both law students and undergraduate students at a more enhanced it's also to help faculty University of Toledo so that way provides support for them for research and writing, provides support for them to be able to offer more classes that they might otherwise not be able to offer.

And also for all of Northwest Ohio.

So one of the things that, you know, one of the kind of small things that I think exemplifies our commitment is to have a cafe conversation where we would invite people there'll be an expert in history and that expert would then host it in a coffee shop, a conversation with citizens of the community who want to come and learn from this person about that particular topic.

So, so we're going to start this fall.

Primarily, we'll start with programing, primarily because we can't do classes yet because the classes tend to be planned a year in advance, although we're hoping to do at least one class this first year.

The programing will include, as I said, those two conversations, conversations on the Ohio Constitution, including jurists, legislators, local officials, prominent attorneys, conversations on civility.

So trying to to model the way in which citizens disagree with each other in an agreeable way as respecting each other as citizens in this common enterprise of the American republic.

So we'll do programing.

We hope to have book clubs for students.

So some faculty sponsors for book clubs.

We're going to affiliate with a number of faculty.

So a number of faculty have expressed interest.

I'm actually going to a lunch meeting after after our conversation here to be able to talk with some other faculty about the ways in which they can partner with the institute as well.

Many faculty have already agreed to partner, and that can include offering a lecture that can include offering a book club that can include mentoring students and supervising, researching and writing.

We hope to have a student research and writing symposium in the spring where the students will present some of their work that they've done under the auspices of the Institute.

We hope to offer an award for the student who has the best research and writing paper.

It's kind of like George Washington said.

People really value getting awards in this.

It won't come with a huge monetary stipend, but it's something to say You really do Great, great.

Doni: Great job that I am so glad to have you with us today to provide your perspective on on this on this topic, which is getting much attention and much debate, quite frankly.

So I hope you come back.

Yeah, you come back when we have more time.

Thank you.

Thank you so much for joining us.

On to the Point.

See you next time.

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