♪ >>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>>> IT'S BARELY BEEN A WEEK, AND THE TRUMP PRESIDENCY HAS ALREADY UPENDED U.S. IMMIGRATION POLICY AND EFFECTIVELY SHUT THE COUNTRY TO VULNERABLE AND PERSECUTED ASSUMELY SEEKERS.

DAVID MILIBAND JOINS ME FROM DAVOS, WHERE TRUMP DECLARED HE SENT THE MILITARY TO THE SOUTHERN BORDER TO STOP AN INVASION.

THEN, AS HE FLOODS THE SCREENS IN A MEDIA BLITZ, IT'S A CRITICAL MOMENT FOR JOURNALISM.

THE DEAN OF THE COLUMBIA SCHOOL OF JOURNALISM, JELL LANNY COBB JOINS THE SHOW.

ALSO AHEAD, HARI SREENIVASAN SPEAKS WITH NOAH FELDMAN ABOUT PRESIDENT TRUMP'S SLEW OF EXECUTIVE ORDERS, AND THEIR IMPACT ON CLIMATE, IMMIGRATION, AND LGBTQ RIGHTS.

♪ >>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

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THE SYLVIA A.

AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.

SETON J. MELVIN.

THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

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AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS MOVING FAST TO CRACK DOWN ON IMMIGRATION IN THE UNITED STATES, EFFECTIVELY CLOSING THE COUNTRY TO ASYLUM SEEKERS, WHILE LAYING THE GROUNDWORK TO DEPORT MIGRANTS ALREADY IN THE COUNTRY.

HERE'S HOW TRUMP DESCRIBED HIS MOVES IN A VIRTUAL SPEECH TO THE WORLD ECONOMIC FORUM IN DAVOS TODAY.

>> I HAVE DEPLOYED ACTIVE DUTY U.S. MILITARY AND NATIONAL GUARD TROOPS TO THE BORDER TO ASSIST IN REPELLING THE INVASION, IT WAS REALLY AN INVASION.

WE WILL NOT ALLOW OUR TERRITORY TO BE VIOLATED.

>> SO, UNDER THE NEW EXECUTIVE ORDERS, THERE ARE FEW, IF ANY AVENUES AVAILABLE TO PEOPLE SEEKING REFUGE IN THE UNITED STATES.

TRUMP'S IMMIGRATION CRACKDOWN IS THREATENING THE RICH HISTORY OF AMERICA, AS A SANCTUARY FOR PEOPLE FLEEING PERSECUTION AND CONFLICT.

IT'S A TRADITION, OF COURSE, MEMORIALIZED ON THE POEM ON THE STATUE OF LIBERTY.

"GIVE ME YOUR TIRED, YOUR POOR, YOUR HUDDLED MASSES YEARNING TO BREATHE FREE."

AND AMERICA ITSELF, OF COURSE, IS AN IMMIGRANT NATION.

AN HISTORIC SANCTUARY FOR THE WORLD'S MOST VULNERABLE WHO OFTEN GO ON TO POWER, CULTURE, SOCIETY, AND THE ECONOMY AND MUCH MORE.

MY FIRST GUEST IS DAVID MILIBAND, HE LEADS THE INTERNATIONAL RESCUE COMMITTEE, WHICH HELPS PEOPLE FLEEING CON CONFLICTS AND DISASTERS, WHICH WAS FOUNDED BY ALBERT EINSTEIN AFTER HE ESCAPED NAZI PERSECUTION.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

>> SO, YOU ARE THERE, PRESIDENT TRUMP VIRTUALLY ADDRESSED THE -- THE ATTENDEES.

WHAT DID YOU TAKE -- I'VE DESCRIBED WHAT HE SAID, WE'VE B YOUR ISSUE, IMMIGRATION AND THE VULNERABLE.

HOW DID YOU TAKE IT?

>> I THINK THE SIGNATURE WORD ASSOCIATED WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP IS CONSISTENCY.

HE WAS ELECTED TO BE A DISRUPTOR, HE PROMISED THAT HE WOULD DISRUPT THE EXISTING WAYS OF DOING THINGS, BOTH WITHIN THE UNITED STATES AND INTERNATIONALLY.

AND HE HAS BEEN CONSISTENT IN THAT ALL THE WAY THROUGH THE CAMPAIGN, BUT IN THE TRANSITION PERIOD, AND NOW IN THE FIRST THREE DAYS.

WE'VE GOT SOME MEASURES ALREADY IN PLACE, AND WE CAN MAKE DISCUSS THEM, IN RESPONSE TO REFUGEE RESETTLEMENT, AND PROMISES OF WHAT'S MORE TO COME.

THERE'S CONSISTENCY.

OBVIOUSLY, SINCE WE'RE AN INTERNATIONAL HUMANITARIAN AID AGENCY, AS WELL AS A REFUGEE SUPPORT AGENCY IN THE UNITED STATES, WE SEE THIS FROM BOTH SIDES, AND WE CAN SEE THAT THERE ARE 59 CONFLICTS AROUND THE WORLD THAT ARE DRIVING PEOPLE OUT OF THEIR OWN COUNTRIES, AND YOU'VE GOT PRESSURE FOR ASYLUM SYSTEMS TO COPE WITH THE DEMAND, AND THAT'S SOMETHING THAT'S -- WE'RE SEEING BOTH IN THE UNITED STATES AND SOUTH OF THE BORDER, BUT ALSO ELSEWHERE IN THE WORLD.

>> I'M GOING TO DIG DOWN INTO THAT, BECAUSE THERE IS A TREND, AS YOU MENTIONED, INCLUDING IN EUROPE, WHERE YOU ARE RIGHT NOW, BUT I JUST WANT TO KNOW, IS IT ACCURATE TO DESCRIBE WHAT'S HAPPENING AT THE U.S. SOUTHERN BORDER AS AN INVASION?

AN AMERICAN TERRITORY BEING VIOLATED?

LANGUAGE IS IMPORTANT, AS WELL.

>> LANGUAGE IS IMPORTANT.

INVASION IS A MILITARY INVASION, WE'VE TALKED ABOUT THAT ON YOUR SHOW BEFORE, ABOUT THE RUSSIAN MILITARY INVASION OF UKRAINE.

SO, I THINK THAT WHAT WE'VE SEEN HISTORICALLY AT THE SOUTHERN BORDER IS TWO THINGS.

ON THE ONE HAND, PEOPLE WHO ARE FLEEING FOR THEIR LIVES, THOSE ARE REFUGEES.

AND WE ALSO SEE PEOPLE WHO ARE IMMIGRANTS, WHO ARE COMING TO THE UNITED STATES FOR ECONOMIC AND FOR OTHER FAMILY REASONS.

OUR LEARNING, OUR EVIDENCE FROM ON THE GROUND IS UNTIL THE IMMIGRATION SYSTEM IS WORKING WELL, AND YOU'LL KNOW THAT AMERICA HAS NOT PASSED AN IMMIGRATION ACT SINCE 1986, UNTIL THE IMMIGRATION SYSTEM IS WORKING IN A FUNCTIONAL FASHION TO DELIVER ON THE SKILLS, THE FAMILY UNIFICATION, OTHER ISSUES, THE ASYLUM SYSTEM ENDS UP TAKING A HUGE AMOUNT OF THE STRAIN AND CANNOT COPE.

AND THAT'S HOW YOU END UP WITH A SITUATION, UNTIL TODAY, WHERE IF YOU ARRIVED IN THE UNITED STATES, IT WOULD TAKE FOUR, FIVE YEARS FOR YOU TO GET YOUR COURT CASE HEARD TO SEE WHETHER OR NOT YOU QUALIFIED FOR ASYLUM.

AND SO, THESE TWO THINGS HAVE TO BE ADDRESSED TOGETHER, BUT THEY'RE NOT THE SAME.

>> THEY'RE NOT THE SAME, BUT ASYLUM IS ONE OF THOSE WORDS THAT MEANS, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE HISTORICALLY WHO FLED, LET'S SAY NAZI PERSECUTION LIKE THE WAR THAT LED TO THE CREATION OF YOUR ORGANIZATION, AND ALL THIS PERSECUTION AROUND THE WORLD.

FOR INSTANCE, THERE ARE AFGHANS WITH ACTUAL PERMITS AND VISAS AND WHATEVER, ALL THE RIGHT PAPERWORK READY TO TRY TO COME TO THE UNITED STATES, AND THEY'VE BEEN STOPPED, AS WELL.

SO, JUST GIVE ME -- JUST TELL ME IN THE NARROWEST TERMS ON THE ASYLUM ISSUE, FOR THOSE LEGITIMATELY FLEEING PERSECUTION, IS THE DOOR SLAMMED ON THEM, AS WELL?

>> YES, IT IS.

AND I'M VERY GLAD YOU RAISED THIS AFGHAN ISSUE.

PRESIDENT TRUMP ANNOUNCED YESTERDAY THAT THE REFUGEE RESETTLEMENT SCHEME, WHICH IS THE MOST SECURE, MOST ORGANIZED, MOST VETTED SYSTEM FOR PEOPLE TO COME TO THE UNITED STATES, IN WHICH INCLUDES A PROVISION FOR SO-CALLED SPECIAL IMMIGRANT VISAS FOR AFGHANS WHO WORKED WITH THE AMERICAN DIPLOMATS, BUT ALSO MILITARY IN AFGHANISTAN, THE SPECIAL -- THERE'S BEEN SPECIAL PROVISION FOR THEM.

THAT'S BEEN STOPPED.

AND IT'S BEEN STOPPED FORTHWITH.

SO, THERE ARE PEOPLE WITH PLANE TICKETS WHO HAVE GONE THROUGH THE VETTING BY 15 U.S.

AGENCIES, THEY'VE BEEN CONFIRMED AS AMONGST THE MOST VULNERABLE, THEY ARE WIDOWS, THEY ARE VICTIMS OF TORTURE, THEY'RE NOT ALLOWED TO COME.

AND THEY'RE LEFT IN LIMBO.

SO, THAT REFUGEE RESETTLEMENT ROUTE AND THE ASSOCIATED VISA ROUTE, IS OBVIOUSLY A MASSIVE CONCERN FOR THOSE INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE LEFT IN THIS VERY, VERY DIFFICULT SITUATION, WHERE THEY'VE PUT UP SHOP FOR WHERE THEY'VE COME FROM.

THEY'VE WAITED FOR OFTEN YEARS TO QUALIFY, THEY'VE BEEN THROUGH THE VETTING SYSTEM, AND NOW THEY'RE NOT ALLOWED TO COME IN.

AND THOSE ARE REAL EXISTING SITUATIONS TODAY.

AND I THINK YOU THEN MOVE ON -- I WOULD CALL THOSE PEOPLE REFUGEES.

AND THE HOLOCAUST SURVIVOR ONCE SAID TO ME BEFORE HE DIED THAT WHILE THE WORLD REFUGEE WASN'T ALWAYS POPULAR, THE WORD REFUGE WAS.

I THINK THAT'S WHAT'S AT STAKE HERE.

>> I JUST NEED TO POINT OUT, I DON'T KNOW IF YOU AGREE OR DISAGREE, BUT THIS NUMBER OF AFGHANS WHO, AS YOU DESCRIBED, WORKED WITH THE UNITED STATES, ET CETERA, THIS WAS ALL TRIGGERED BY PRESIDENT TRUMP'S 1.0 POLICY OF WITHDRAWING AMERICAN TROOPS AND EFFECTIVELY HANDING THE COUNTRY OVER TO THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, WHO EXECUTED HIS DEAL CATASTROPHICALLY, BUT IT WAS HIS DEAL.

SO, THE QUESTION IS WHAT DO YOU HAVE IN PLACE, FOR INSTANCE, AS THE IRC?

ARE THERE ANY GUARDRAILS OR THINGS THAT YOU -- THAT STILL EXIST, WHEREBY YOU CAN MEET YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO REFUGEES AND THOSE WHO LEGITIMATELY SEEK REFUGE?

>> WELL, ONE UNIQUE THING ABOUT THE INTERNATIONAL RESCUE COMMITTEE IS THAT WE WORK BOTH AS AN INTERNATIONAL HUMANITARIAN AID AGENCY AND AS A REEWE GEE RESETTLEMENT AGENCY.

IN THE CASE OF THE AFGHANS, WE HAVE 2,500 PEOPLE WORKING FOR US IN AFGHANISTAN, INCLUDING 1,000 WOMEN, AND WE HAVE PEOPLE WORKING FOR US IN PAKISTAN, OUR TEAM IS ABOUT 800 THERE, MANY AFGHAN REFUGEES ARE IN PAKISTAN, AS WELL AS BEING A REEWE GEE RESETTLEMENT AGENCY IN THE UNITED STATES.

WE CAN CONTINUE TO OFFER OUR SERVICES, AS LONG AS THERE REMAINS ING FOR OUR WORK.

WE CANNOT PROVIDE OUR INTEGRATION SERVICES HERE IN THE UNITED STATES, BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY, THOSE PEOPLE ARE NOT BEING ALLOWED IN, THEIR TICKETS ARE NOT VALID TO COME INTO THE UNITED STATES.

SO, THERE ARE LIMITS, VERY STRICT LIMITS, ON WHAT WE CAN DO HERE.

WE'RE LEFT TO OUR INTERNATIONAL WORK.

NOW, IN RESPECT OF THE INTERNATIONAL WORK, I THINK YOUR CLIP FROM PRESIDENT TRUMP EARLIER QUOTED HIM FREEZING FOREIGN DEVELOPMENT AID.

WE'RE OBVIOUSLY VERY CONCERNED ABOUT THAT.

THAT MEANS HEALTH CARE, IT MEANS EDUCATION, WE'RE ALSO CONCERNED, OBVIOUSLY, ON THE HUMANITARIAN FRONT, WHERE I BELIEVE THE COMMITMENT IS TO CONTINUE WITH THE HUMANITARIAN EFFORTS THAT ARE SUPPORTED BY VARIOUS PARTS OF THE U.S. GOVERNMENT.

BUT IN TERMS OF THE PROVISION THAT WE CAN MAKE FOR SOMEONE WHO IS AN AFGHAN, SPECIAL IMMIGRANT VISA HOLDER, WHO WORKED FOR THE UNITED STATES INAFGHANISTAN, WAS EXPECTING TO COME HERE, UNLESS HE'S ALLOWED BACK IN BY THE GOVERNMENT, WE'RE NOT ABLE TO OFFER THE SUPPORT SERVICES HERE.

>> AS WE SAID, AMERICA IS AN IMMIGRANT NATION, AND BOTH PRESIDENT TRUMP AND HIS VICE PRESIDENT ARE MARRIED TO PEOPLE WHOSE, YOU KNOW, WHO HAVE IMMIGRATED, OR THEIR PARENTS.

MARCO RUBIO, HIS SECRETARY OF STATE, IS THE SON OF CUBAN IMMIGRANTS.

AND HE'S WRITTEN THAT MASS MIGRATION IS THE MOST CONSEQUENTIAL ISSUE OF OUR TIME.

SO, AS YOU'VE CORRECTLY SAID, THERE'S BEEN NO AMERICAN CONGRESSIONAL LAW PASSED SINCE THE '80s, TO FIX AN OBVIOUSLY BROKEN PROBLEM.

SO -- SO WHAT HAPPENS IN THE ABSENCE OF THAT?

AND -- AND, DAVID MILIBAND, THIS IS NOT JUST AN AMERICAN PHENOMENON.

VOTERS VOTED FOR THIS.

IT WAS POLICY NUMBER ONE FOR U.S.

VOTERS, AND IN THE REST OF THE WORLD.

THEY ARE TURNING THEIR BACKS ON -- ON MIGRATION.

THAT'S JUST A FACT RIGHT NOW.

>> WELL, I THINK THAT WHAT THEY'RE DOING IS TURNING THEIR BACKS ON THE WAY MIGRATION IS BEING MANAGED OR MISMANAGED.

WE'VE ALWAYS ARGUED AT THE INTERNATIONAL RESCUE COMMITTEE THAT THE ASYLUM AND MIGRATION SYSTEM NEEDS TO BE ORDERLY, IT NEEDS TO BE FAIR TO HOST COMMUNITIES, AS WELL AS THOSE WHO ARE COMING, IT NEEDS TO BE SAFE.

AND THE CHOICE THAT WE FACE IN THE MODERN WORLD IS NOT WHETHER PEOPLE ARRIVE OR WHETHER THEY DON'T ARRIVE, THE QUESTION IS, DO THEY COME IN A SAFE, ORDERLY, REGULATED WAY AND A HUMANE WAY, OR DO THEY COME IN AN UNSAFE, UNDOCUMENTED, AND UNREGULATED WAY, EFFECTIVELY PUTTING THEMSELVES IN THE HANDS OF THE PEOPLE SMUGGLERS?

AND OUR GREAT WORRY, BOTH FOR EUROPE AND FOR THE UNITED STATES, IS THAT UNTIL THERE ARE SAFE AND LEGAL ROUTES TO OFFER PEOPLE A LEGAL ROUTE TO HOPE, THEY'RE GOING TO PUT THEMSELVES IN THE HANDS OF THE PEOPLE SMUGGLERS.

ONE OF THE SCHEMES THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS SUSPENDED, ESPECIALLY PEOPLE FROM HAITI, CUBA, AND VENEZUELA, PEOPLE WHO ARE FLEEING THE SITUATIONS IN THOSE COUNTRIES, INCLUDING PERSECUTION IN CUBA, THE SUSPENSION OF THAT MEANS THAT A PROGRAM WHICH OFFERED THEM A LEGAL AND ORDERLY WAY TO APPLY, 30,000 PEOPLE WERE ALLOWED TO APPLY FOR THAT IN ANY FIXED MONTHLY PERIOD, WHAT HAPPENED WHEN THAT PROGRAM WAS INTRODUCED BY THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION IS IT REDUCED THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE FROM THOSE COUNTRIES AT THE SOUTHERN BORDER BY 98%N'T AND .

AND SO THE GREAT FEAR ABOUT WHAT'S BEEN DONE IS THE END RESULT WILL BE MORE PEOPLE PUTTING THEMSELVES WITH MORE MONEY IN THE HANDS OF THE PEOPLE SMUGGLERS.

THAT'S NOT GOING TO ACHIEVE ANYTHING FOR LATIN AMERICA OR THE U.S. >> I WANT TO PLAY A SOUND BYTE OF AN AMERICAN REVEREND, THE BISHOP MARIANNE BUDD, WHO STOOD BEFORE PRESIDENT TRUMP DURING HIS INAUGURAL PRAYER SERVICE, AND THIS IS WHAT SHE SAID ON THIS ISSUE.

>> I ASK YOU TO HAVE MERCY, MR. PRESIDENT, ON THOSE IN OUR COMMUNITIES WHOSE CHILDREN FEAR THEIR PARENTS WILL BE TAKEN AWAY, AND THAT YOU HELP THOSE FLEEING WAR ZONES AND PERSECUTION IN THEIR OWN LANDS.

TO FIND COMPASSION AND WELCOME HERE.

>> SO, IT DOESN'T SEEM CONTROVERSIAL, I MEAN, SHE ADDRESSED THE PRESIDENT, AND, OF COURSE, YOU KNOW, ANYTHING LIKE THAT IS DECK MAGOGUED ALL OVER.

THE PRESIDENT CALLED HER A HARD CALL TRUMP HATER, AND A REPUBLICAN MEMBER OF CONGRESS SAYS SHE SHOULD BE ADDED TO THE DEPORTATION LIST.

SO, THIS JUST INDICATES THE DEMAGOGUERY THAT GOES AROUND ON THIS ISSUE.

DOES THAT ADD TO PEOPLE'S HATRED OF IMMIGRANTS?

>> WELL, THE -- POPE FRANCIS TEN YEARS AGO WENT TO AN ISLAND OFF ITALY WHERE MANY SYRIANS ARRIVED ON THEIR WAY TO EUROPE, AND HE LOOKED AT THE CONDITIONS THERE AND HE -- HE CHALLENGED THE WORLD BY SAYING, WE MUSTN'T SUFFER FROM A GLOBALIZATION OF INDIFFERENCE.

AND MORAL LEADERS, RELIGIOUS LEADERS, OFTEN GET ACCUSED OF ALL SORTS OF THINGS, POPE FRANCIS WAS ACCUSED IN 2014 OF ALL SORTS OF THINGS, BUT I THINK THEY'RE SPEAKING TO A VERY IMPORTANT POINT, WHICH IS THE ULTIMATE AND ESSENTIAL DIGNITY OF EVERY HUMAN BEING, EVERY HUMAN BEING HAS RESPONSIBILITIES, BUT EVERY HUMAN BEING HAS RIGHTS, AS WELL.

AND NO ONE HAS A RIGHT TO LIVE SOMEWHERE ELSE, BUT IF YOU'RE FLEEING FOR ASYLUM, THREEING FOR YOUR LIFE, YOU DO HAVE THE RIGHT TO HAVE YOUR ASYLUM CASE HEARD, AND IF YOU ARE ADJUDICATED TO BE UNSAFE TO GO HOME, THEN YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO STAY.

I THINK THAT'S AN IMPORTANT PRINCIPLE, THAT WAS ESTABLISHED AFTER THE SECOND WORLD WAR.

WHY INSTITUTIONS ALWAYS NEED TO BE REFORMED AND ADAPTED AND MODERNIZED TO COPE WITH THE TIMES, AND I THINK IT'S VERY IMPORTANT THAT WE DON'T UNLEARN LESSONS THAT WERE LEARNED IN THE 19th CENTURY.

AND IN ALL THE TALK AT THE MOMENT ABOUT DISRUPTION, I THINK IT'S VERY, VERY IMPORTANT THAT WE REMEMBER THAT AFTER 1945, IT WASN'T JUST THE SANCTITY AND SOVEREIGNTY OF STATES THAT WAS GUARANTEED IN THE U.N. CHARTER, IT WAS THE SANCTITY AND SENE SURE OF HUMAN RIGHTS.

THAT WAS THE FIRST TIME IN HUMAN HISTORY THAT HAPPENED.

I THINK IT SHOULD BE BUILT ON.

>> AND I WANT TO ASK YOU, JUST A BIT FURTHER, PERHAPS SOME REVERSE MIGRATION.

SYRIA, AS WE KNOW, HAS NOW -- IT'S FREE OF THE DICTATOR ASSAD, AND THERE'S HOPE AMONGST MANY SYRIANS LIVING OUTSIDE, AND THERE ARE MILLIONS OF THEM, YOU TALKED ABOUT IT BEING THE WORST REFUGEE CRISIS SINCE THE SECOND WORLD WAR, AND MILLIONS OF THEM, TURKEY, YOU KNOW, JORDAN, EVERYWHERE.

AND MANY WANT TO GO BACK.

DO YOU SEE, AND ARE YOU SEEING ON THE GROUND WITH YOUR OPERATION IN SYRIA, AND I THINK YOU KNOW THE NEW HEAD OF SYRIA, FROM HIS WORK IN IDLIB, DO YOU SEE ANY GROUND BEING LAID FOR A REVERSE MIGRATION?

>> YES, I'M SO PLEASED YOU'VE GIVEN ME THE TIME TO ADDRESS THAT, CHRISTIANE.

I'VE COME ON YOUR SHOW MANY TIMES IN THE LAST TEN YEARS AND TALKED ABOUT THE SITUATION INSIDE SYRIA, HOW THE WAR WAS GOING ON, HOW IDLIB AND THE NORTHEAST HAD 850 STAFF FROM THE INTERNATIONAL RESCUE COMMITTEE, THERE WERE 6 MILLION REFUGEES.

IT'S AN EXTRAORDINARY TURNAROUND IN THE LAST THREE MONTHS.

SOME HAVE GONE BACK.

THE LAST FIGURE I SAW FROM THE UNITED NATIONS HIGH COMMISSION ON REFUGEES, WAS 200,000 SOOER YANS HAVE GONE BACK.

IT WAS HERE AT DAVOS, THE NEW FOREIGN MINISTER OF SYRIA WAS INTERVIEWED YESTERDAY, AND HE MADE IT CLEAR, OF COURSE, IT'S WORDS, BUT WORDS ARE A GOOD START, HIS WORDS WERE THAT THE FUTURE SYRIA WOULD BE AN INCLUSIVE SYRIA, IT WOULD RECOGNIZE THE DIFFERENT MUSLIM SECTS, BUT ALSO RECOGNIZE CHRISTIANS, DRUZE, AN INCLUSIVE SETTLEMENT.

I CAN REPORT TO YOU, AS YOU SAY, THE GROUP THAT'S NOT RUNNING THE WHOLES OF SYRIA WERE RUNNING IDLIB PROVINCE UNTIL DECEMBER WHERE WE HAD 450 STAFF, AND THEY ALLOWED US TO GET ON WITH OUR WORK.

THEY RECOGNIZED THAT WE WERE AN INDEPENDENT HUMANITARIAN AGENCY, NOT A POLITICAL AGENCY, AND WE'VE NOW BEEN ABLE TO GO TO DAMASCUS AND THEY RECOGNIZE THE WORK WE'VE DONE IN THE NORTHEAST AND NORTHWEST OF SYRIA.

AND SO, SYRIA IS AN EXTRAORDINARY CASE STUDY.

OUR EMERGENCY WATCH LIST IS PUBLISHED EVERY YEAR IN DECEMBER, WE NEVER TOOK SYRIA OFF OF EMERGENCY WATCH LIST, FOR ALL THE PEOPLE THAT WENT AND SAID THE WAR WAS OVER, ASSAD HAD WON, WE SAW 16 MILLION PEOPLE IN NEED IN THE COUNTRY, 6 MILLION REFUGEES OUTSIDE.

WE DIDN'T SEE THAT AS OVER.

FOR A VERY SIMPLE REASON.

INTENDED HUMANITARIAN CRISIS IS A STORE FOR POLITICAL CRISIS, AND THAT'S WHAT WE'VE SEEN.

WE'VE GOT TO CROSS OUR FINGERS THAT THE WORDS ARE NOW TURNED INTO DEEDS, AND SYRIA DOES, INDEED, COME BACK TO BEING A MIDDLE INCOME STABLE COUNTRY.

>> AND PEOPLE ARE FULL OF HOPE.

LISTEN, DAVID, I'M GLAD YOU LIKED THAT QUESTION, I'M GOING TO THROW ONE AT YOU KNOW THAT YOU MAY OR MAY NOT LIKE.

WOULD YOU LIKE TO BE THE UK AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED STATES?

AS YOU KNOW, THE REPORTS HERE ARE FULL OF THE FACT THAT THE GOVERNMENT IS UNDER PRESSURE, THAT THE UNITED STATES DOESN'T WANT THEIR CHOSEN, NECESSARILY, OR TRUMP DOESN'T WANT THEIR CHOSEN AMBASSADOR.

YEAH?

>> THERE'S A COMPLETELY FICTIONAL STORY IN ONE OF THE PAPERS.

PRIME MINISTER OF THE UK -- ABOUT ME, THAT THE PRIME MINISTER OF THE UK HAS NOMINATED PETER MANDEL SON.

HE'LL DO AN OUTSTANDING JOB.

I THINK HE'S DO TO START IN THE NEXT FEW DAYS.

I THINK PETER'S GOT ENORMOUS EXPERIENCE, GEOPOLITICAL, AS WELL IN RESPECT OF TRADE AND OTHER MATTERS.

SO, THERE'S NO QUESTION TO BE POSED FOR ME.

I'M ALWAYS HAPPY TO TAKE YOUR QUESTIONS.

YOU MAY NOT LIKE THE ANSWERS.

BUT THE ANSWER IS SIMPLE, WE HAVE AN AMBASSADOR ON HIS WAY.

>> AND PARTICULARLY SINCE VERY PROM NANT TRUMPIES LIKE MUSK AND THE OTHERS ARE INTERFERES IN BRITISH POLITICS.

HOW DO YOU SEE THE SPECIAL RELATIONSHIP GOING?

>> WELL, I THINK PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS SAID THAT HE'S MET WITH KEIR STARMER TWICE, THE UK PRIME MINISTER, THEY'VE HAD SERIOUS, IN DEPTH TALKS, INCLUDING ABOUT UKRAINE.

THE NEGOTIATING TACTICS ARE OBVIOUSLY VERY, VERY IMPORTANT FOR ALL EUROPEAN COUNTRIES, INCLUDING THE UK.

THE UK AND THE U.S. HAVE CLOSE LINKS, BUT OBVIOUSLY HALF OF OUR TRADE WITH THE EUROPEAN UNION, NOT WITH THE UNITED STATES.

SO, BRITAIN IS A -- IS GENUINELY A GLOBALLY LINKED COUNTRY, IT'S A COUNTRY THAT'S FORTUNATE TO HAVE THIS QUOTE UNQUOTE SPECIAL RELATIONSHIP WITH THE U.S., WHICH IS VERY STRONG ON THE SECURITY SIDE, IT'S ALSO STRONG ON CULTURAL AND OTHER QUESTIONS.

I'M SURE IT WILL CONTINUE TO BE STRENGTHENED.

THAT DOESN'T MEAN WE'LL AGREE ON EVERYTHING, BUT THAT'S POLITICS, AND POLITICS IS, OF COURSE, HIGH PASSIONS ARE RAISED, BUT THERE'S BIG WORK TO BE DONE.

BIG WORK IN RESPECT OF THE GLOBAL POLITICAL SITUATION, BIG WORK ON THE FRAGMENTATION OF POLITICAL POWER AROUND THE WORD.

BIG WORK ON HOW TO MODERNIZE OUR ECONOMIES.

THAT'S SOMETHING WHERE WE'VE ALL GOT TO LEAN IN.

>> FASCINATING.

DAVID MILIBAND, HEAD OF THE IRC, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US AGAIN.

>>> NOW, ONE COUNTRY WHERE MANY REFUGEES REMAIN STUCK IN LIMBO AS WE SAID IS AFGHANISTAN, AND TODAY, THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT ANNOUNCED THAT IT'S SEEKING ARREST WARRANTS FOR TWO TOP TALIBAN OFFICIALS FOR ALLEGED GENDER-BASED CRIMES.

SINCE THE GROUP REGAINED CONTROL IN 2021, WOMEN AND GIRLS HAVE BEEN ESSENTIALLY ERASED FROM PUBLIC LIFE.

A FORMER AFGHAN LAWMAKER AND HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVIST EXPLAINED TO ME WHY WOMEN SCARE THE TALIBAN SO MUCH.

>> I THINK THE TALIBAN HAVE THIS PHOBIA OF EDUCATED WOMEN, BECAUSE THE MORE EDUCATED A WOMAN BECOMES, THE MORE INDEPENDENT A WOMAN BECOMES, IT'S A THREAT FOR PATE YARD CAN I, FOR DICTATORS.

NO EDUCATED WOMAN WILL ALLOW HER SON TO PICK UP A GUN AND FIGHT, SO, TALIBAN WILL EVENTUALLY LOSE THEIR GROUND.

THEIR EXISTENCE IS BASED ON THE SUPPRESSION.

SO, WOMAN RIGHTS HAVE BECOME A MATTER OF WEAPON FOR THE TALIBAN, FOR THEIR POWER TO CONTINUE.

AND THAT'S WHY.

I THINK OUR, YOU KNOW, OUR PLEA TO THE WORLD IS NOT TO FALL INTO THAT NARRATIVE THAT THE TALIBAN HAVE CREATED OF ISLAM.

IT'S NOT ISLAM.

THE MUSLIM WORLD MUST REALLY STAND NOW TO CHALLENGE THAT PRINCIPLE.

>> AND OF COURSE, IT'S THE YOUNG GIRLS WHO ARE AFFECTED THE MOST, GOING BY A DIFFERENT NAME, HERE IS WHAT AFGHAN TEEN TOLD ME.

>> FOR ME, PERSONALLY THERE'S AS SOMETHING, LIKE, LIKE A HOPELESS FEELING INSIDE MY HEART.

NOT KNOWING WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN NEXT, BECAUSE AS I SAID BEFORE, I ALWAYS AM AFRAID OF, LIKE, DARKNESS THAT IS GOING TO BE HAPPENING FOR MY FUTURE.

NOT ONLY FOR ME, BUT ALSO FOR THE NEXT GENERATION.

YOU KNOW, GIRLS AND WOMAN ARE ALWAYS LEFT BEHIND, AND THEY ARE, YOU KNOW, NOT ON -- THEIR RIGHTS ARE ALWAYS TAKEN, AND, YOU KNOW, THEY DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO PARTICIPATION, THEY ARE NOT HEARD.

AND I'M ALWAYS HOPE LESSEEING ALL THIS HAPPENING.

AND MOST HEARTBREAKING IS, OUR VOICE, YOU KNOW, WE SPEAK UP, BUT NO ONE IS HEARING THAT, AND NO CERTAIN ACTIONS ARE TAKEN.

SO, ALL, YOU KNOW, CONSIDERING ALL THESE THINGS, I'VE GOT A HOPELESS FEELING.

>> AND THE PERSECUTION CONTINUES.

ONE OF THE LATEST DECREES FROM THE TALIBAN SAYS THAT NEW BUILDINGS CANNOT BE CONSTRUCTED WITH WINDOWS THROUGH WHICH WOMEN COULD BE SEEN.

IT REALLY DOES BEGGAR BELIEF.

>>> NOW, IF IT SEEMS LIKE PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS BEEN EVERYWHERE IN HIS FIRST WEEK IN OFFICE, THAT'S BECAUSE HE HAS.

HE'S DONE PRESS CONFERENCES AND INTERVIEWS.

TODAY, ADDRESSING THE WORLD ECONOMIC FORUM.

EVERY DAY SINCE TAKING UP HIS POST.

WHILE ALSO KEEPING UP HIS ATTACKS ON THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA.

HIS MANY THREATS AND LAWSUITS AGAINST JOURNALISTS ARE PART OF A BIGGER MISSION TO DISCREDIT AND INTIMIDATE THE PRESS.

IT'S A CRITICAL MOMENT FOR JOURNALISTS.

AND JOURNALISM.

JELANI COBB IS JOINING ME FROM NEW YORK.

WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

IT SEEMS LIKE THIS IS THE TIME TO TAKE STOCK, AGAIN.

TRUMP IS BACK, AND WE KNOW WHAT HE THINKS OF THE PRESS.

WHICH IS NOT FAVORABLE.

GIVEN WHAT HAPPENED BEFORE, THE PRESS SORT OF FORMED ITSELF AS AN OPPOSITION, WHAT DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO HAPPEN THIS TIME, AND WHAT SHOULD THE PRESS DO?

>> WELL, I MEAN, I THINK, FIRST OF ALL, IT'S GOOD TO BE BACK WITH YOU, CHRISTIANE, ALWAYS GREAT TO TALK WITH YOU.

AND I THINK THAT THE PRESS SHOULD CONTINUE TO DO EXACTLY, YOU KNOW, WHAT WE'VE DONE, WHICH IS THAT WE'RE HERE TO REPORT.

AND, YOU KNOW, I REALLY LIKE MARTY BARON'S LINE WHO SAID, THEY'RE AT WAR, WE'RE AT WORK.

WE DON'T HAVE A PARTICULAR GRIEVANCE OR ANY PARTICULAR ORIENTATION TOWARD THIS ADMINISTRATION, BUT OUR FIRST ALLEGIANCE IS TOWARD THE FACTS, AND REPORTING THE TRUTH TO OUR VIEW EVERIES, READERS, SUBSCRIBERS, ET CETERA.

>> YEAH, WITHOUT FEAR NOR FAVOR.

SINCE YOU BROUGHT UP MARTY, THE FORMER EXECUTIVE EDITOR, YOU -- YOU HAVE SEEN WHAT'S HAPPENING AT "THE WASHINGTON POST" RIGHT NOW.

LITERALLY A HOSE PIPE OF THE MOST TALENTED LEAVING, PARTLY BECAUSE OF WHAT HAS BEEN TERMED AT LEAST BY THE "THE NEW YORK TIMES" ANTICIPATORY OBEDIENCE.

SUGGESTING THAT IN ALL WALKS OF LIFE, BOSSES AND OTHERS ARE PRETTY MUCH BENDING OVER IN LOYALTY TO PRESIDENT TRUMP BEFORE HE EVEN ASKS.

SO, JEFF BEZOS AND THE OTHERS WERE CRITICIZED FOR GIVING IN, IN VARIOUS WAYS.

WHAT SHOULD, YOU KNOW, "THE WASHINGTON POST" EXPECT, OR ANY JOURNALISTIC ORGANIZATION, FROM ITS LEADERSHIP NOW?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, I DON'T KNOW THAT IT'S ANTICIPATORY, YOU KNOW?

WE ALREADY HAVE, YOU KNOW, BACKGROUND.

WE SAW DURING, YOU KNOW, THE FIRST TIME AROUND WITH TRUMP, THE ATTEMPTS TO PENALIZE NEWS ORGANIZATIONS BY UTILIZING TRUST AND ANTI-TRUST LAWS ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT MERGERS WOULD BE APPROVED BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

WHETHER OR NOT THE POSTAL RATES, AMAZON, WOULD BE CHANGED, YOU KNOW, BLUE HORIZON, WHICH IS JEFF BEZOS' SPACE COMPANY, WHICH DEPENDS ON GOVERNMENT CONTRACTS.

AND ALL THOSE THINGS CAME UP DURING THE FIRST GO ROUND, AND SO, I THINK THAT THEY KIND OF UNDERSTAND HOW THIS GAME IS PLAYED.

YOU KNOW, NOT COINCIDENTALLY, THERE'S, YOU KNOW, $40 MILLION OFFER FROM -- FOR THE BIOPIC ABOUT MELANIA TRUMP'S LIFE, THE DOCUMENTARY ABOUT HER, SO, YOU FACTOR ALL THOSE THINGS IN, AND, YOU KNOW, IT CERTAINLY APPEARS THAT PEOPLE ARE LOOKING AT HOW THE BIGGER GAME IS PLAYED.

FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE DEPENDING UPON "THE WASHINGTON POST", WHO HAVE COME TO TRUST "THE WASHINGTON POST," IT RAISES THE QUESTION WHETHER OR NOT THIS WILL IMPACT -- I WON'T SAY WHETHER OR NOT, THE EXTENT TO WHICH THIS WILL IMPACT THE EDITORIAL DECISIONS THAT ARE MADE AT THAT NEWS ORGANIZATION.

I THINK, YOU KNOW, WHEN I'VE TALKED WITH PEOPLE I KNOW WHO ARE THERE, WHO HAVE HISTORY THERE, YOU KNOW, THAT HAS BEEN ONE OF THE PRIMARY REASONS FOR THE EXODUS.

THAT, YOU KNOW, THEY DON'T THINK THAT THEY'LL BE ABLE TO REPORT IN THE MANNER IN WHICH, YOU KNOW, THEY WOULD PREFER.

>> I JUST WANT TO POINT OUT THAT TRUMP DID ADDRESS THE IDEA OF FREE SPEECH TODAY DURING HIS VIRTUAL ADDRESS TO THE WORLD ECONOMIC FORUM, IN DAVOS, AND YOU HEARD HIM SAY, YOU KNOW, TALK ABOUT IT DURING HIS INAUGURAL ADDRESS.

I'M GOING TO PLAY WHAT HE SAID, AND THEN I WANT TO ASK YOU WHAT YOU THINK HE MEANS BY FREE SPECH.

>> IN ADDITION, I'M PLEASED TO REPORT THAT AMERICA IS ALSO A FREE NATION ONCE AGAIN.

ON DAY ONE, I SIGNED AN EXECUTIVE ORDER TO STOP ALL GOVERNMENT CENSORSHIP.

NO LONGER WILL OUR GOVERNMENT LABEL THE SPEECH OF OUR OWN CITIZENS AS MISINFORMATION OR DISINFORMATION, WHICH ARE THE FAVORITE WORDS OF SENSORS AND THOSE WHO WISH TO STOP THE FREE EXCHANGE OF IDEAS AND, FRANKLY, PROGRESS.

WE HAVE SAVED FREE SPEECH IN AMERICA, AND WE'VE SAVED IT STRONGLY.

>> OKAY, SO, JELANI COBB, HEAD OF THE COLUMBIA SCHOOL OF JOURNALISM, PARSE THAT FOR US.

BECAUSE HE'S SAYING, NO, WE DON'T NEED ANY WEEDING OUT OF DISINFORMATION AND MISINFORMATION.

YOU KNOW THE -- SUBJECTS THAT HAVE BEDEVILLED THE PRESS FOR -- FOR SO MANY YEARS NOW.

WHAT DO YOU THINK HE MEANS?

>> WELL, I MEAN, I THINK IT'S PRETTY STRAIGHTFORWARD.

LIKE, THIS IS A WAR ON FACTS.

YOU KNOW?

WHEN PEOPLE ARE SAYING MISINFORMATION AND DISINFORMATION, THIS IS NOT A KIND OF SUBJECTIVE EVALUATION.

THIS IS AN EVALUATION THAT'S MADE ON THE BASIS OF FACTS, WHETHER OR NOT SOMETHING IS PROVABLY OR DEMONSTRABLY TRUE OR UNTRUE.

AND SO, IF YOU BELIEVE THAT ALL THESE THINGS ARE SIMPLY KIND OF, YOU KNOW, SUBJECT TO YOUR OWN WHIMS AND WHAT YOU THINK, YOU KNOW, THEN IT'S EASY TO SAY THAT CALLING SOMETHING MISINFORMATION OR DISINFORMATION IS CENSORSHIP.

BY THE WAY, THAT DOESN'T NECESSARILY QUALIFY AS CENSORSHIP.

POINTING OUT THAT SOMETHING IS UNTRUE.

YOU KNOW, PEOPLE HAVE A CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO SPEAK AND WHETHER OR NOT THEY'RE TELLING THE TRUTH IS NOT DETERMINED BY THAT.

THEN, FINALLY, YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT WHEN WE LOOK AT WHAT'S HAPPENED IN THE SOCIAL MEDIA LANDSCAPE, IT'S MADE IT, YOU KNOW, EASIER FOR, YOU KNOW, THE FIRE HOSE OF UNTRUTH AND PROPAGANDA TO JUST SIMPLY SPREAD, AND WE'VE SEEN, YOU KNOW, WHAT HAPPENED IN THE MIDST OF COVID AND THE PANDEMIC, AND, YOU KNOW, THE KINDS OF FALSE IDEAS THAT PEOPLE HAD ABOUT THE VACCINES AND ABOUT THE NATURE OF THE VIRUS AND SO ON, AND THAT THERE ARE REAL-LIFE CONSEQUENCES TO THIS TYPE OF BAD INFORMATION.

>> AND JELANI COBB, PRESIDENT BIDEN, OUTGOING SPEECH, MADE ALSO REFERENCE TO AN OLIGARCHY, AND HE WAS ALSO TALKING ABOUT THE HEADS OF THE BIG STREAMING PLATFORMS, THE BIG SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS, WHICH HAVE, LIKE ELON MUSK, GOT MAJOR GOVERNMENTAL, YOU KNOW, ECONOMIC CONTRACTS AND THINGS LIKE THAT, WHO HAVE -- WHO HAVE MOVED AWAY FROM FACT-CHECKING.

META MOVED AWAY FROM FACT-CHECKING.

THEY WERE ALL SAT IN PRETTY MUCH THE FRONT ROW BEHIND THE PRESIDENTIAL FAMILIES AT THE INAUGURATION.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN WHEN THE OLIGARCHS ARE NOT RUBBER BARONS LIKE IN RUSSIA OR THE EARLY DAYS OF THE UNITED STATES, BUT THEY'RE MEDIA TITANS.

>> I THINK THERE'S REASON TO BE CONCERNED, WHEN YOU SEE THE KIND OF -- WHAT WE CONSIDER THE INFORMATION INFRASTRUCTURE OF THE NATION BEING THAT CLOSELY ALIGNED WITH GOVERNMENT ITSELF.

YOU KNOW, IN THE UNITED STATES, WE THINK OF THE PRESS AND THE MEDIA AS THE FOURTH ESTATE, THAT WE'RE SUPPOSED TO BE A KIND OF IMMUNE SYSTEM FOR DEMOCRACY.

WE'RE SUPPOSED TO BE SPECIFICALLY OUTSIDE OF GOVERNMENT IN ORDER TO OPERATE AS A CHECK ON GOVERNMENT.

TO INFORM THE PUBLIC AND THE PUBLIC CAN THEN USE THAT INFORMATION TO FORM THEIR OPINIONS AND PUBLIC OPINION IS ULTIMATELY AT THE CORE OF DEMOCRACY.

THAT'S HOW IT'S SUPPOSED TO WORK.

WHEN YOU SEE THAT KIND OF ALIGNMENT, AND THAT KIND OF CHOREOGRAPHY, IT RAISES THE QUESTION ABOUT, YOU KNOW, WHETHER OR NOT THERE IS A KIND OF GOVERNMENT LINE, OR, A PREFERRED WAY OF VIEWING THINGS, THAT THEN WILL GET AMPLIFIED, YOU KNOW, AND DISSEMINATED ON SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS.

I CAN'T SAY THAT IT'S HAPPENING, I CAN'T SAY THAT'S TRUE, BUT THAT'S A QUESTION WE SHOULD PURSUE.

WHY -- WHAT ARE THE IMPLICATIONS OF THIS?

>> SO, AS YOU KNOW, AND I'M SURE IT'S ON A WALL SOMEWHERE IN THE COLLEGE THERE, THOMAS JEFFERSON BACK IN 1787 FAMOUSLY SAID, WERE IT LEFT TO ME TO DECIDE WHETHER WE SHOULD HAVE A GOVERNMENT WITHOUT NEWSPAPERS OR NEWSPAPERS WITHOUT A GOVERNMENT, I SHOULD NOT HESITATE A MOMENT TO PREFER THE LATTER.

AND YET, AS YOU KNOW -- >> THE LATTER.

>> YEAH, THE LATTER.

HE SAID THAT, BUT NOW, WE'RE FACED, APPARENTLY, WITH LAWSUITS, POTENTIAL REGULATION, POTENTIAL LICENSE REVIEWS, BUT JELANI, THIS IS ALSO AT A TIME WHEN THE MAINSTREAM PRESS IS KIND OF HEMORRHAGING VIEWERS, LISTENERS, ET CETERA, AND THEY'RE MIGRATING TO THE DIGITAL SPHERE, THEY PLAYED A HUGE AND VERY IMPORTANT ROLE DURING THIS ELECTION.

SO, IT'S COME AT A VERY BAD TIME FOR US.

>> YEAH, I YOU THIS IT'S A PERFECT STORM, YOU KNOW, OF DYNAMICS, BECAUSE -- IN SOME WAYS, IT'S HARD TO KIND OF UNRAVEL, YOU KNOW, THE CHICKEN AND THE EGG HERE, WHETHER, YOU KNOW, DONALD TRUMP HAS BEEN SO WILDLY SUCCESSFUL AT DEMONIZING THE PRESS BECAUSE THE PRESS HAS BEEN WEAKENED, OR WHETHER THE PRESS HAS, IN FACT, BEEN WEAKENED BECAUSE DONALD TRUMP HAS BEEN SO WILDLY SUCCESSFUL AT DEMONIZING IT.

I SUSPECT THAT THEY'RE KIND OF MUTUALLY REINFORCING AT THIS POINT.

IF YOU ADD THE TECHNOLOGICAL DISRUPTION, THE PROBLEMS OF TRUST AND, YOU KNOW, GROWING DISTRUST IN MEDIA, AND THE ONGOING PROBLEMS OF THE BUSINESS MODEL, IT REALLY PLACES US IN A MORE FRAGILE POSITION THAN WE HAVE TRADITIONALLY BEEN IN.

AND, YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE CONSEQUENCES IS THAT IT'S VERY DIFFICULT NOW TO HAVE AN INDEPENDENT CHECK ON WHAT IS BEING PASSED OFF AS FACT OR TRUTH BY PRESIDENTIAL ADMINISTRATION, OR WHAT IS BEING DISSEMINATED OR AMPLIFIED ON SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS.

>> JELANI COBB, I THINK YOU WOULD AGREE THAT DONALD TRUMP HAS BEEN INCREDIBLY SUCCESSFUL AT SEWOWING THIS DISTRUST OF TH PRESS.

WE REMEMBER BACK IN 2016, EVEN BEFORE, YOU KNOW, AFTER HIS ELECTION, HE TOLD "60 MINUTES" THAT HE WAS JUST GOING TO KEEP, YOU KNOW, HIS DRUM BEAT AGAINST THE PRESS UP, BECAUSE WHEN THEY WROTE STUFF ABOUT HIM THAT HE DIDN'T LIKE, NOBODY ELSE WOULD BELIEVE HIM.

THAT'S ONE THING.

ON THE OTHER HAND, HIS PRESS SECRETARY HAS TWEETED THAT HIS, YOU KNOW, IS THE MOST TRANSPARENT PRESIDENT -- LET ME GET IT RIGHT.

THE MOST TRANSPARENT PRESIDENT IN HISTORY IS BACK.

IS THERE SOMETHING TO BE SAID FOR THAT?

>> I MEAN, THERE'S -- HE GOVERNS IN HYPERBOLICS, AND, YOU KNOW, KIND OF SPEAKS IN HYPERBOLICS.

AND I THINK IT'S PROBABLY NOT WORTH TRACKING DOWN, YOU KNOW, EVERY TIME SOMETHING IS DESCRIBED AS THE MOST, OR THE GREATEST, OR, YOU KNOW, THE BIGGEST OR WHATEVER, YOU KNOW, KINDS OF TERMS THERE ARE.

I THINK THAT THERE ARE LOTS OF WAYS IN WHICH THE PRESS HAS FOUND THE ADMINISTRATION TO BE OPAQUE, AT LEAST THE FIRST ONE.

CERTAINLY AROUND THE PANDEMIC.

ON THE OTHER HAND, YOU KNOW, HE HAS OFTEN SAID THINGS THAT ARE CRASS, VOLATILE, DISRESPECTFUL, AND, YOU KNOW, IN WAYS THAT OTHER POLITICIANS WOULDN'T.

AND MAYBE THAT DOES CONSTITUTE SOME FORM OF TRANSPARENCY.

I -- I DON'T KNOW THAT IT'S THE KIND OF -- THE MOST USEFUL THING FOR US TO FERRET OUT.

>> DO YOU -- DO YOU HAVE CONCERNS ABOUT DONALD TRUMP OWNING TRUTH SOCIAL PLATFORM AND SENDS OUT, YOU KNOW, EVERYTHING HE WANTS TO SAY, LIKE HE USED TO TWEET UP A STORM, HE DOES IT ON TRUTH SOCIAL, WHICH HE OWNS.

IS THAT AN ISSUE OF CONFLICT OF INTEREST, IS THAT A CONCERN TO YOU?

>> SHE, URE, I MEAN, IN THEORY,S A PROBLEM OF CONFLICT OF INTEREST.

I DON'T THINK -- THAT DOESN'T BOTHER ME AS MUCH, QUITE FRANKLY, BECAUSE, I MEAN, HE OWNS IT, EVERYONE KNOWS THAT HE OWNS ITS, 99% OF THE PEOPLE WHO ARE GOING TO SUBSCRIBE TO IT ARE GOING TO BE BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE IN HIS WORLD VIEW AND SO ON.

I THINK THE BIGGER PROBLEM IS PLATFORMS THAT HAVE FUNCTIONED MORE -- HAVE ICALLY FUNCTIONED MORE AS A PUBLIC SQUARE, THAT ARE NO LONGER OPERATING IN THAT SAME SORT OF CAPACITY.

AND SO, YOU KNOW, WE'VE HAD A VERY KIND OF ANALOG LEVEL WE'VE HAD ELECTED OFFICIALS THAT HAD NEWSLETTERS OR PEOPLE WHO HAD TIES TO NEWS ORGANIZATIONS, AND, OF COURSE, YOU WOULD IDEALLY SEPARATE OR DISTINGUISH YOURSELF DURING THE TIME IN OFFICE.

WE DON'T SEE THAT, YOU KNOW, HAPPENING HERE.

BUT FOR ME, THE BIGGER TECH PLATFORMS ARE REALLY THE FUNDAMENTAL QUESTION THERE.

>> SO, WE'VE GOT 20 SECONDS LEFT, ARE YOU OPTIMISTIC OR CONCERNED ABOUT THE -- OUR ROLE OVER THE NEXT FOUR YEARS?

AND BEYOND, FRANKLY.

>> WELL, I'M REALLY OPTIMISTIC.

WE JUST HAD OUR ANNUAL DUE POPT AWARDS, WHICH CELEBRATES THE BATON THAT'S GIVEN FOR THE DUPONT AWARDS.

WE CELEBRATE THE BEST IN JOURNALISM EACH YEAR.

WE DID THAT AT COLUMBIA JOURNALISM SCHOOL LAST NIGHT WITH STORIES THAT WERE FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD, AND LOOKING AT ILLEGAL FISHING, YOU KNOW, FROM, THE CHINESE FLEET AND LOOKING AT, YOU KNOW, THE ATTACK ON TRANS RIGHTS IN TEXAS, AND A MAN WHO WAS CONVICTED AND SPENT 48 YEARS IN PRISON AND REPORTING, WAS ABLE TO GET HIM OUT, YOU KNOW, SO THAT HE WAS EXONERATED, AND, YOU KNOW, ALL THOSE THINGS GIVE ME A GREAT DEAL OF OPTIMISM.

>> GOOD.

>> AND HOPE ABOUT WHERE WE'RE GOING AS A PROFESSION.

>> I'M GLAD YOU PAY TRIBUTE TO REPORTING.

JELANI COBB, THANK YOU SO MUCH INDEED.

>>> NOW, FROM PULLING OUT OF THE PARIS CLIMATE AGREEMENT AND THE W.H.O., TO THOSE HARSH CRACKDOWNS ON IMMIGRATION, PRESIDENT TRUMP'S BARRAGE OF EXECUTIVE WORLDERS HAS THE POTENTIAL TO DRAMATICALLY CHANGE THE LIVES OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE.

SO, IT BEGS THE QUESTION, HOW MUCH POWER DOES A U.S. PRESIDENT ACTUALLY HAVE?

HARVARD LAW PROFESSOR NOAH FELDMAN SPEAKS TO HARI SREENIVASAN ABOUT SOME OF TRUMP'S FIRST ORDERS AND IF THEY'LL HOLD UP IF CHALLENGED IN COURT.

>> CHRISTIANE, THANK YOU.

PROFESSOR NOAH FELDMAN, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

PRESIDENT TRUMP WANTED TO KEEP A BUNCH OF HIS CAMPAIGN PROMISES, SOME OF THEM INCLUDED MAKING EXECUTIVE ORDERS AND REPEALING EXECUTIVE ORDERS, AND I THINK HE PUT OUT 46 DIFFERENT PRESIDENTIAL ACTIONS AND HE REPEALED DOZENS OF DIFFERENT EXECUTIVE ORDERS FROM PREVIOUS ADMINISTRATIONS.

BUT BEFORE WE GET INTO THE SPECIFICS, U.S. TO SET THE TABLE FOR PEOPLE, WHAT IS THE SCOPE AND GRAVITY OF THESE EXECUTIVE ORDERS?

WHAT DOES IT MEAN?

WHAT KIND OF POWER DOES IT HAVE?

>> TO BEGIN WITH, AND EXECUTIVE ORDER IS ANYTHING THE PRESIDENT TELLS THE PEOPLE WHO WORK FOR HIM TO DO.

AND IT'S IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT IT'S NOT A LAW, BECAUSE ONLY CONGRESS CAN PASS A LAW, AND THE PRESIDENT SIGNS IT.

AND IT DOESN'T USUALLY HAVE THE FORCE OF LAW, UNLESS SOMEONE ELSE HAS AUTHORIZED THE PRESIDENT TO IMPLEMENT THE LAW VIA EXECUTIVE ORDER, AND IT ALSO DOESN'T USUALLY FORCE ANYONE IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR TO DO ANYTHING.

SO THAT'S THE LIMITATION OF AN EXECUTIVE ORDER.

AT THE SAME TIME, AN EXECUTIVE ORDER CAN BE A VERY EFFECTIVE WAY FOR A PRESIDENT TO SET OUT PRIORITIES, BY TELLING EVERYBODY WHO WORKS FOR THE PRESIDENT WHICH IS THE WHOLE OF THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH, INCLUDING ALL OF THE AGENCIES, THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE THAT IMPLEMENTS LAWS, THAT THEY SHOULD APPROACH AND GIVEN PROBLEM IN A CERTAIN WAY, AND SO, IT CAN BE A HUGE IMPACT ON A PRESIDENT'S POLICIES.

AND THEN, A LOT OF SPECIFIC CIRCUMSTANCES, WHERE THE PRESIDENT IS EXERCISING POWER THAT HE HAS UNDER SOME LAW, THE EXECUTIVE ORDER TELLS YOU WHAT THE PRESIDENT'S GOING TO DO.

AND THAT CAN ALSO HAVE TRANSFORMATIONAL EFFECTS.

FOR EXAMPLE, WE'LL TALK ABOUT THIS, I'M SURE IN THE CONTEXT OF CLIMATE.

>> SO, LET'S TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT SOME OF THE ONES THAT GIVE YOU THE MOST CONCERN.

I MEAN, WHICH -- WE DON'T HAVE TO GO THROUGH ALL 46, BUT WHICH ONES ARE THE ONES THAT LEAP OFF THE PAGE TO YOU?

>> THERE'S A LOT TO CHOOSE FROM.

STARTING AT THE PLANETARY LEVEL, THE PRESIDENT'S ANNOUNCEMENT THROUGH EXECUTIVE ORDER THAT THE UNITED STATES WILL WITHDRAW FROM THE PARIS CLIMATE ACCORDS IS OF GRAVE SIGNIFICANCE AND IMPORTANCE TO ME.

I'M VERY, VERY CONCERNED ABOUT THE AFFECTS OF THAT ON GLOBAL WARMING.

AND IT COMES WITH A WHOLE SERIES OF EXECUTIVE ORDERS THAT ARE DIRECTED AT ENABLING AND FACILITATING MUCH MORE EXTRACTION OF FOSSIL FUEL RESOURCES, THAT IS TO SAY DRILLING, IN THE UNITED STATES.

AND THE CONCERN THERE ISN'T JUST FOR THE ENVIRONMENT WITH THE DRILLING, IT'S REALLY WHAT HAPPENED TO THE ENVIRONMENT WHEN THE FUELS ARE THEN BURNED.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE POSSIBILITY THAT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION WILL REALLY REVERSE A SUBSTANTIAL AMOUNT OF THE PROGRESS THAT'S BEEN MADE ON CLIMATE CHANGE.

AND I WOULD ADD TO THAT, AS WELL, AN EXECUTIVE ORDER THAT SAYS THAT THE INCENTIVES CREATED FOR PEOPLE TO BUY ELECTRIC VEHICLES ARE ALSO GOING TO BE ROLLED BACK.

SO, THAT'S AT THE LEVEL OF THE GLOBE AND I'M SAYING THAT ONLY BECAUSE THAT AFFECTS THE LARGEST NUMBER OF PEOPLE, AND WE CAN GO ONTO THE OTHER THINGS.

>> ONE OF THE CAMPAIGN PROMISES THAT HELPED GAIN SO MUCH SUPPORT FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP AMONG HIS SUPPORTERS AND VOTERS WAS ISSUES REGARDING THE SOUTHERN BORDER, IMMIGRATION, AND HE HAD EXECUTIVE ORDERS FOCUSED IN ON THAT.

AND I THINK ONE OF THEM WAS TITLED PROTECTING THE MEANING AND VALUE OF AMERICAN CITIZENSHIP, I MEAN, SO, HE WENT FROM ISSUES REGARDING THE SOUTHERN BORDER, ALL THE WAY INTO BIRTHRIGHT CITIZENSHIP.

OF THAT CATEGORY OF EXECUTIVE ORDERS, WHICH ONES DO YOU THINK WILL, I GUESS, LAST?

BECAUSE MANY OF THESE EXECUTIVE ORDERS LOOK LIKE THEY WILL BE COMING UNDER LEGAL CHALLENGE.

>> WELL, YOU PUT THEM INTO THREE BUCKETS.

ONE OF WHICH IS I THINK IS OVERWHELMINGLY LIKELY TO BE FOUND ILLEGAL.

ONE OF WHICH IS GOING TO BE FOUGHT IN COURT.

AND ONE OF WHICH WILL PROBABLY SURVIVE.

THE ONE THAT'S ALMOST CERTAINLY GOING TO BE FOUND ILLEGAL IS THE ORDER THAT PURPORTS TO SAY THAT IF YOU'RE BORN IN THE UNITED STATES, IF YOUR PARENTS ARE UNDOCUMENTED, YOU DON'T AUTOMATICALLY BECOME A CITIZEN.

AND THE PROBLEM WITH THAT IS THAT IT EXPLICITLY VIOLATES THE 14th AMENDMENT TO THE CONSTITUTION, WHICH SAYS, IF YOU'RE BORN IN THE UNITED STATES AND SUBJECT TO THE JURISDICTION OF THE UNITED STATES, YOU BECOME A CITIZEN.

SO, YOU MAY ASK, HOW IN THE WORLD CAN THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION TRY TO GO AGAINST THAT?

OBVIOUSLY, THE PRESIDENT DOESN'T HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO CONTRADICT THE CONSTITUTION.

EVEN CONGRESS CAN'T CONTRADICT THE CONSTITUTION.

AND THE THEORY THAT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS ING UNDER IS A VERY CONVOLUTED THEORY.

JUST SO YOU KNOW WHAT IT IS, THOUGH IT'S WRONG, THE CLAIM IS THAT THE WORDS SUBJECT TO THE JURISDICTION OF THE UNITED STATES ONLY APPLY IF YOU'RE HERE IN THE UNITED STATES AS A CITIZEN YOURSELF, OR YOUR PARENTS ARE CITIZENS.

NOW, THERE MIGHT BE SOME EDUCATIONS, LIKE, IF YOU'RE AN AMBASSADOR FROM A FOREIGN COUNTRY AND YOU HAVE DIPLOMATIC IMMUNITY AND YOU HAVE A CHILD, MAYBE YOU AND YOUR CHILD AREN'T SUBJECT TO THE JURISDICTION OF THE UNITED STATES, MAYBE.

BUT EVERYONE ELSE WHO IS HERE, WHETHER THEY'RE HERE ON A TOURIST VISA OR UNDOCUMENTED, IS SUBJECT TO THE JURISDICTION OF THE UNITED STATES.

IF YOU COMMIT A CRIME, YOU'LL BE ARRESTED.

AND BUT THAT'S THE ARGUMENT THEY'RE GOING TO MOUNT.

ALREADY, A LAWSUIT HAS BEEN FILED AGAINST IT BY ATTORNEYS GENERAL OF MANY STATES, AND THE COURTS WILL OVERWHELMINGLY STRIKE THAT DOWN.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT THE PRESIDENT DID WAS DECLARE DIFFERENT TYPES OF EMERGENCIES.

HE DECLARED A NATIONAL EMERGENCY AT THE SOUTHERN BORDER OF THE UNITED STATES, HE DECLARED ANOTHER EMERGENCY DELIVERING EMERGENCY PRICE RELIEF FOR AMERICAN FAMILIES AND DEFEATING THE COST OF LIVING CRISIS, AND THEN DECLARING A NATIONAL ENERGY EMERGENCY.

SO, WHEN A PRESIDENT DECLARES AN EMERGENCY, WHAT DOES THAT KIND OF UNLOCK?

>> THERE ARE MANY LAWS PASSED BY CONGRESS THAT INCLUDE PROVISIONS THAT SAY, THE PRESIDENT IS ENTITLED TO DECLARE AN EMERGENCY UNDER SOME SET OF CONDITIONS, AND THAT WHEN THE PRESIDENT DOES THAT, HERE ARE THE EXTRA POWERS HE GETS.

SOMETIMES IT'S NEW MONEY, SOMETIMES IT'S MORE AUTHORITY TO MAKE DECISIONS.

AND THEN THERE ARE SOME MORE GENERAL TUTES THAT CONFER THIS IN A NONSPECIFIC WAY.

SO, THE -- UNFORTUNATE FACT IS THAT IT ALL DEPENDS ON THE SPE SIF STAKE CHUTE.

AND WHAT WE'RE GOING TO SEE IS THAT IN SOME INSTANCES, TRUMP WILL JUST BE INVOKING EMERGENCY POWERS THAT HE'S ENTITLED TO INVOKE.

WE CAN QUIBBLE ABOUT WHETHER THERE REALLY IS AN EMERGENCY, BUT THE STATUTES GIVES IT TO THE PRESIDENT TO DECIDE IF THERE IS AN EMERGENCY.

IN THOSE INSTANCES, THE PRESIDENT WILL HAVE EXPANDED POWERS.

SOMETIMES POWERS TO MAKE DECISIONS, POTENTIALLY EVEN TO DECLARE TARIFFS UNDER SOME OF THESE EMERGENCY POWERS PROVISIONS.

AND TO SPEND MONEY AND TO SOMETIMES EVEN DEPLOY TROOPS.

AND THEN, THERE ARE GOING TO BE OTHER SITUATIONS WHERE THE PRESIDENT PUSHES THE ENVELOPE, WHERE PRESIDENT TRUMP PUSHES THE ENVELOPE OF WHAT HE'S ALLOWED TO DO PURSUANT TO THOSE EMERGENCY POWERS.

FOR EXAMPLE, BY TRYING TO INVOKE EMERGENCY POWERS TO SPEND MONEY ON SOMETHING THAT CONGRESS HAS ALREADY TOLD HIM NOT TO SPEND MONEY ON.

HE TRIED TO DO THAT IN HIS FIRST ADMINISTRATION WITH RESPECT TO BUILDING A BORDER WALL, AND ULTIMATELY DIDN'T DO SO.

SO, I WOULD EXPECT SIMILAR PUSHING THE ENVELOPE HERE AND WHERE HE DOES PUSH THE ENVELOPE, HIS ACTIONS WILL BE CHALLENGED IN COURT.

>> NONE OF THIS HAPPENS IN A POLITICAL VACUUM, RIGHT?

THE PRESIDENT FEELS EMPOWERED BY THIS VICTORY OF ALL THE BATTLEGROUND STATES AND SO FORTH, TO SAY, LOOK, THIS WAS A REFERENDUM NOT JUST ON JOE BIDEN, BUT THIS GIVES ME THE AUTHORITY, I HAVE ESSENTIALLY BOTH HOUSES OF CONGRESS AND I HAVE APPOINTED THREE SUPREME COURT JUSTICES WHO MIGHT SIDE WITH ME MORE OFTEN THAN NOT.

ESPECIALLY CONSIDERING JUST IN THE LAST COUPLE OF TERMS, THEY HAVE INCREASED THE SCOPE AND SCALE OF PRESIDENTIAL POWER.

I WONDER WHETHER WE ARE ACTUALLY WITNESSING A MUCH, MUCH GREATER CONCENTRATION OF POWER IN THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH, AND SPECIFICALLY, UNDER ONE PERSON NOW.

>> EVERY PRESIDENT CLAIMS TO HAVE A MANDATE, AND EVERY PRESIDENT TAKES BOLD STEPS.

IN STATISTIC CALL TERMS, MEASURED BY THE POPULAR VOTE, TRUMP'S MANDATE IS NOT VERY LARGE, AND WHAT'S MORE, HIS MAJORITY IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES IS RAZOR THIN.

AND COULD EASILY BE UNDERMINED.

AND SO, IT'S ACTUALLY NOT GOING TO BE AS SIMPLE AS YOU MIGHT IMAGINE, OR AS OTHERS MIGHT IMAGINE, FOR A REPUBLICAN CONGRESS TO VOTE THINGS THAT TRUMP WANTS, BECAUSE WHEN YOU HAVE A NARROW MAJORITY, EVEN JUST A FEW PEOPLE DEVIATING FROM IT ON A SPECIFIC ISSUE MEANS YOU WON'T NECESSARILY WIN.

AND THAT'S ONE REASON THAT YOU SEE HIM COMING INTO OFFICE WITH THIS WHOLE SLEW OF EXECUTIVE ORDERS, ALL OF WHICH, IN THEORY, AT LEAST THE LAWFUL ONES, HE CAN DO WITHOUT CONGRESS.

AS FOR THE SUPREME COURT, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE RIGHT, HARI THAT THE SUPREME COURT EXPANDED EXACTLY POWER IN, FOR EXAMPLE, ITS DECISION THAT TRUMP AND OTHER PRESIDENTS SUBSEQUENTLY CAN'T BE HELD CRIMINALLY LIABLE FOR MOST CONDUCT THEY DO AS PRESIDENT, WITH SOME NARROW EXCEPTIONS, BUT IT'S WORTH NOTING THAT EVEN THE VERY CONSERVATIVE MEMBERS OF THE SUPREME COURT ARE GENERALLY SKEPTICAL OF THE IDEA THAT CONGRESS GIVES POWER TO THE EXECUTIVE DAY JEN SIS, INCLUDING THE ADMINISTRATIVE AGENCIES, THAT DO THINGS THAT HAVE THE FORCE OF LAW.

YOU MAY SEE THAT ON SOME OF THOSE ISSUES, THE CONSERVATIVE JUSTICES ARE SKEPTICAL OF TOO MUCH DELEGATION OF POWER.

WHEN IT COMES TO THE PRESIDENT HIMSELF, I THINK YOU'RE RIGHT THAT THIS COURT IS VERY SYMPATHETIC GENERALLY TO THE IDEA OF STRONG EXECUTIVE POWER.

AND IT WILL PROBABLY SEE SOME COURT CASES THAT REALLY TEST THAT.

IN THE FIRST TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, REMEMBER THAT TRUMP CAME INTO OFFICE WITH THE MUSLIM BAN AND THE COURTS, THE LOWER COURTS REALLY PUSHED BACK AND HE HAD TO DO IT AND THEN REDO IT AND REDO IT AND THE SUPREME COURT IN A VERY COMPLICATED COMPROMISE DECISION SAID, WELL, YOU CAN SORT OF DO THIS WITHIN CERTAIN LIMITS.

AND HE MAY FIND HIMSELF IN SIMILAR SITUATION NOW, WHERE THE COURT PUSHES BACK AGAINST HIM MORE THAN HE EXPECTS.

>> ALREADY WE'VE SEEN, ESPECIALLY IN THE CONTEXT OF IMMIGRATION, A RECENT MEMO CAME OUT THAT TRUMP ADMINISTRATION WANTED FEDERAL PROSECUTIONS TO GO AFTER CITY AND STATE OFFICIALS WHO STOOD IN THE WAY.

WHAT DOES THIS DO TO, I GUESS, THE GENERAL CLIMATE ON NOT JUST WHETHER OR NOT THESE LAWS CAN BE DEEMED LEGAL AND THESE ACTIONS CAN BE DEEMED LEGAL, BUT WHAT ABOUT ANYBODY WHO CHOOSES TO SAY, THIS IS NOT MY OFFICIAL ACT, THIS IS NOT PART OF MY JOB TO DO THIS?

AND SO, I'M NOT GOING TO COMPLY.

>> YOU KNOW, THIS KIND OF RHETORIC IS REALLY DESIGNED TO FRIGHTEN THOSE PUBLIC OFFICIALS WHO WOULD LIKE TO TAKE A STAND.

AS HAPPENED DURING THE FIRST TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, OF SAYING, WELL, YOU KNOW WHAT?

WE'RE JUST NOT GOING TO COMPLY WITH YOUR DEMANDS AND ORDERS WITH RESPECT TO UNDOCUMENTED PEOPLE.

AND I THINK A LOT OF THOSE FOLKS ARE VERY BRAVE PUBLIC SERVANTS AND WILL CONTINUE TO STAND THEIR GROUND, BECAUSE LEGAL LY THE TRUMP THREATS DO NOT HAVE MUCH REALLY TO REST UPON.

OUR SYSTEM OF FEDERALISM, WHICH YOU CAN LOVE IT OR HATE IT, BUT WHEN THE PRESIDENT AND CONGRESS ARE AGAINST YOU, MOST PEOPLE SUDDENLY DISCOVER THAT THEY LIKE FEDERALISM, AND UNDER A SYSTEM OF FEDERALISM, THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT CAN'T COMMANDEER LOCAL OR STATE-LEVEL OFFICIALS TO FULFILL THE DEMANDS OF FEDERAL LAW.

THEY CAN'T BREAK FEDERAL LAW, BUT THEY CAN'T BE COMMANDEERED INTO DOING THE JOB OF FEDERAL OFFICIALS, AND THAT'S WHAT THEY'LL BE RESTING ON.

>> ONE OF THE AREAS THAT THE PRESIDENT IS INTERESTED IN ROLLING BACK IS THE -- HE'S ALREADY ORDERED ALL FEDERAL AGENCIES IN THE EXECUTIVE BRANCHES TO STOP ALL DEI, DIVERSITY, EQUITY, INCLUSION-RELATED INITIATIVES, AND, YOU KNOW, ON THE SURFACE, IT MIGHT BE SEEN AS A REACTION TO THE POLITICS OF THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS.

BUT SOME OF THE RULES THAT ARE GOING TO BE SORT OF ERASED OR ROLLED BACK HAVE BEEN ON THE BOOKS FOR DECADES FOR ENTIRELY DIFFERENT PURPOSES.

WHAT ARE SOME OF THE KIND OF UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES OF A BLANKET POLICY?

>> WELL, FIRST OFF, I WOULD SAY, FOR THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, THESE ARE INTENDED CONSEQUENCES, BECAUSE IT'S NOT JUST, AS YOU HINTED, IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT A RESPONSE TO THE DEI EFFORTS THAT PICKED UP, SAY, IN THE WAKE OF THE BLACK LIVES MATTER MOVEMENT.

THIS IS PART OF A LONG RUN STRATEGY BY REPUBLICANS TO PUT A DEFINITIVE END TO ALL FORMS OF AFFIRMATIVE ACTION, INCLUDING THE KINDS OF AFFIRMATIVE ACTION THAT GO BACK TO THE CIVIL RIGHTS ERA, AND THAT WERE REALLY DESIGNED LESS IN TERMS OF DIVERSITY AT THE TIME AND MORE IN TIMES OF REMEDIATING THE HISTORY OF CONSEQUENCES THAT SLAVERY AND THEN SEGREGATION HAD IN THE UNITED STATES.

AND SO, PART OF THIS IS AN ATTACK ON DIVERSITY, AND THE SUPREME COURT DEALT A MAJOR BLOW TO THE DIVERSITY RATIONALE FOR AFFIRMATIVE ACTION IN THE CASE IN 2023, AND SO, THIS ORDER FOLLOWS ON THAT.

BUT SOME OF IT IS A DEEPER CULTURAL EFFORT TO MOVE US AS A COUNTRY PAST THE IDEA THAT WE DO THINK THERE'S APPROPRIATE -- APPROPRIATE ROLE FOR DIVERSITY AND AFFIRMATIVE ACTION IN HIRING IN CORPORATIONS, IN HIRING IN THE GOVERNMENT, AND HANDING OUT OF GOVERNMENT CONTRACTS, AND SO FORTH AND SO ON.

AND THAT'S THE NAME OF THE GAME FOR THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

AND SO, THE COUPLE OF ORDERS THAT THE ADMINISTRATION HAS ISSUED DO GO ALL THE WAY BACK TO AFFIRMATIVE ACTION PROGRAMS THAT HAVE BEEN IN PLACE, IN SOME CASES, SINCE THE GREAT SOCIETY AND LBJ, AND -- WHICH HAVE, I THINK, FOR THE MOST PART HAVE BEEN ACCEPTED BY MOST AMERICANS.

BUT THOSE WILL ALSO BE ROLLED BACK, AND THAT'S NOT AN ACCIDENT.

IT'S PART OF AN OVERALL OBJECTIVE THAT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS PUSHING FOR.

>> PROFESSOR, CAN YOU WALK US THROUGH THE IMPACT OF THESE EXECUTIVE ORDERS ON, SAY, TRANS AND LGBTQ RIGHTS?

>> WELL, THE ADMINISTRATION ISSUED AN EXECUTIVE ORDER THAT WAS DESIGNED TO REVERSE ANY PROGRESS THAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION HAD MADE ON TRANS RIGHTS, AND IT REFERS TO A RANGE OF DIFFERENT CONTEXTS.

IT ORDERS ALL THE PARTS OF THE GOVERNMENT THAT ARE UNDER THE EXECUTIVE'S AUTHORITY TO USE BIOLOGICAL SEX AS THE DEFINITION, RATHER THAN TO USE GENDER OR GENDER ORIENTATION AS A DEFINITION.

SOME OF THAT IS GOING TO BE CHALLENGED IN COURT, BECAUSE IT'S, TO BE BLUNT, VERY POORLY DRAFTED, AND ISN'T REALLY VERY LOGICAL IN TERMS OF HOW IT'S RIP.

BUT INEVITABLY, SOME OF THAT ORDER WILL COME INTO EFFECT.

SOME OF IT ALSO EFFECTS TRANSGENDER PEOPLE WHO ARE IMPRISONED IN THE FEDERAL SYSTEM.

AND INSISTS THAT ONLY BIOLOGICAL SEX CAN BE USED FOR PLACEMENT OF PRISONERS.

AND THAT'S ALREADY COME UNDER SHARP CRITICISM FROM TRANSACTIVISTS AND FROM THE CIVIL RIGHTS COMMUNITY FOR THE POTENTIAL DANGERS THAT PEOPLE MIGHT SUFFER IN CONSEQUENCE.

AND THAT IS ALSO A VERY SYMBOLICALLY SIGNIFICANT ORDER, YOU KNOW, DONALD TRUMP RAN ON THIS ISSUE, AND CERTAINLY BELIEVES, WITH PERHAPS SOME IMPERIAL EVIDENCE, THAT IT WAS AN ISSUE THAT HELPED HIM TO VICTORY, AND THE MESSAGE THAT IT SENDS IS PRETTY CLEAR.

IT'S AN EXPLICIT ORDER DESIGNED TO SEND A MESSAGE THAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT UNDER DONALD TRUMP IS NOT GOING TO BE A RESPECTER OF TRANS RIGHTS.

AND, YOU KNOW, THERE ARE SOME LIMITATIONS ON THAT, BUT RIGHT NOW, THE SUPREME COURT IS CONSIDERING A CASE ABOUT TRANS RIGHTS, AND IF THAT CASE COMES OUT AGAINST THE INTEREST OF THE TRANS COMMUNITY, THERE WILL BE A KIND OF MULTIPLE SET OF FORCES, BOTH COMING FROM THE EXECUTIVE AND THE JUDICIARY, THAT MIGHT REPRESENT REAL REVERSALS OF SOME OF THE PROGRESS MADE IN RECENT YEARS.

IT'S A VERY SERIOUS MATTER.

>> AS PEOPLE WATCH THIS RAFT OF EXECUTIVE ORDERS AND PROCLAMATIONS AND PARDONS AND SO FORTH, I WONDER WHETHER WE ARE NOW MORE CEPTING AS A SOCIETY THAT THIS THE POWER OF THE PRESIDENCY.

THAT'S WHY WE WANT HIM OR HER TO SIGN A BUNCH OF THINGS ON DAY ONE AND LAY OUT POLICIES AND LAY OUT PRIORITIES THAT REFLECT MY VOTE FOR THAT PERSON, RIGHT?

VERSUS, OH, I DON'T KNOW HOW CONGRESS IS GOING TO GET THROUGH IT, I DON'T KNOW HOW THE SUPREME COURTS ARE GOING TO GET THROUGH IT, BUT AT LEAST I KNOW I HAVE ACCESS TO A BUTTON THAT I CAN PUSH ONCE EVERY FEW YEARS, AND THAT HOPEFULLY MY PRIORITIES WILL WIN THE DAY.

>> I THINK YOU'RE MAKING A REALLY IMPORTANT POINT.

THE CONSTITUTION, AS IT WAS DESIGNED, DID NOT HAVE A KING, AND IT EMPEROR.

IT JUST HAD A PRESIDENT, AND THE PRESIDENT WAS SUPPOSED TO EXECUTE WHAT CONGRESS SAID TO DO.

AND OUR NOTION OF THE CONTEMPORARY PRESIDENCY AS THE MOST POWERFUL OF THE BRANCHES, AND AS YOU SAID, THE ONLY ONE THAT WE VOTE FOR, ALL OF US, HAS GRADUALLY MADE THE PRESIDENCY INTO SOMETHING MORE AND MORE LIKE AN ELECTIVE MONARCHY OR EVEN LIKE AN EMPEROR, AND THERE'S A HUGE RISK TO THAT FOR THE PRINCIPLES OF DEMOCRACY THAT WE HAVE.

THAT SAID, ALTHOUGH TRUMP IS AN EXTREME FORM OF THIS, IT'S NOT LIKE JOE BIDEN DIDN'T FREQUENTLY TRY TO DO THINGS THAT HE COULDN'T DO THROUGH LEGISLATION THROUGH EXECUTIVE ORDERS.

EVERY PRESIDENT LIKES TO MAXIMIZE THE POWER OF THE PRESIDENT TO ONE DEGREE OR ANOTHER.

AND THAT'S BEEN A CONSISTENT TREND, IT'S ONE OF THE REASONS WE'VE HEADED IN THIS DIRECTION.

EVERY PRESIDENT AFTER THE NEXT ONE TRIES TO EXTEND PRESIDENTIAL POWER, USUALLY JUST A LITTLE BIT MORE.

AND SO, I THINK OUR DISTRUST IN CONGRESS JUST MEASURED BY STATISTICS OF WHAT PEOPLE TELL THE POLLSTERS THAT THEY FEEL, AND THE CRISIS OF LEGITIMACY THAT THE SUPREME COURT HAS BEEN FACING IN RECENT YEARS IN LIGHT OF ITS CONSERVATIVE REVOLUTION, BOTH ALSO TEND TO PUSH US IN THE DIRECTION OF SAYING, WELL, CONGRESS ISN'T GOING TO DO IT, WE DON'T TRUST THE SUPREME COURT, THAT LEAVES IT UP TO THE PRESIDENT.

AND THE REALITY IS MUCH MORE COMPLICATED THAN THAT, AND IN A GENUINE DEMOCRACY, YOU CAN'T CONCENTRATE ALL THE POWER IN ONE PERSON.

IT'S JUST MUCH TOO RISKY, BECAUSE YOU'LL LOSE THE BASIC PRINCIPLE OF CHECKS AND BALANCES.

>> NOAH FELDMAN, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> AND INDEED A FEDERAL JUDGE HAS NOW JUST TEMPORARILY BLOCKED THAT EXECUTIVE ORDER ENDING BIRTHRIGHT CITIZENSHIP, CALLING IT, QUOTE, BLATANTLY UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

>>> AND FINALLY TONIGHT, ACTRESS DEMI MOORE HAS GONE ALMOST ALL OF HER CAREER WITHOUT GETTING A MAJOR AWARD, BUT THIS YEAR, HER BODY HORROR FILM "THE SUBSTANCE" HAS RESONATED WITH AUDIENCES AND CRITICS.

SHE AND THE FILM HAVE SCORED FIVE OSCAR NOMINATIONS TODAY, WHICH SHOWS HER STRIPPED DOWN AND BEARING ALL AS A WOMAN AGING IN A MAN'S WORLD, AND THE DRAMATIC THINGS SHE DOES TO ARREST THAT PROCESS.

>>> AND THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING, AND GOOD-BYE FROM LONDON.