One of the greatest beauties of a book, in my opinion, is there's no passport needed to take you places you want to go or never even knew existed.

I'm Holly Jackson, host of "Books by the River."

I'm here to navigate the conversation of those who draw the maps for some of the greatest journeys bound in a book.

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ Major funding for "Books by the River" is brought to you by the ETV Endowment of South Carolina.

For more than 40 years, the ETV Endowment of South Carolina has been a partner of South Carolina ETV, and South Carolina Public Radio.

This program is supported by South Carolina Humanities, a not for profit organization inspiring, engaging, and enriching South Carolinians with programs on literature, history, culture, and heritage.

S.C. Humanities receives funding from the National Endowment for the Humanities.

Democracy demands wisdom.

Additional funding for "Books by the River" is provided by Visit Beaufort, Port Royal and Sea Islands and Osher Lifelong Learning Institute at USC Beaufort.

(Holly) And I'm sitting here today with Kimberly Brock.

Thanks so much for joining us.

I'm really excited about this conversation.

(Kimberly) I'm so excited to be here.

I've been waiting to be here for years, [Woo!]

so this is great!

(Holly) You're on the list!

Yes!

Alright.

So tell us about your latest book, first of all.

(Kimberly) It is a dual timeline southern historical fiction.

It's set on the coast of Georgia, on Cumberland Island, and then in a fictional town called Reverie.

There are three main characters.

Cleo Woodbine has stories that flash back to 1932 and an event that takes place that's tragic and affects her life for the next almost 30 years.

And then in 1959, when, a girl dies that she remembers from that time period, it sort of brings all the ghosts of the past back, along with that woman's daughter who comes to Reverie, and Cumberland with questions for Cleo - and a young innkeeper who is running an inn in town and recently widowed - and she takes a photograph in town and accidentally develops a double exposure.

And it is a photograph of a boy that's been missing since 1932.

(Holly) Oh, wow.

(Kimberly) And so people in town think she may have resurrected a ghost.

So it's a little bit of a southern ghost story.

(Holly) I love that you've used the word ghost already so many times in this conversation.

And the reason why is because our mutual friend Jonathan Halp, I spoke with him last night, and he says - he gave me a quote of yours, I believe, that he said, like, “every story is a ghost story” or something.

Is that something you believe?

(Kimberly) Absoulutely.

And I, I think that that's where, you know, I started thinking about this story.

I, I know that I believe that, but I wanted to know why do I believe that?

What is it that I'm actually trying to say?

And we took a trip for our 25th wedding anniversary to Cumberland.

I had always wanted to see Cumberland.

My first beach trip, you know, was to the Georgia coast.

But I had never seen Cumberland.

It's a national park now, and it's predominantly undeveloped.

It's beautiful and wild.

So we went for our 25th wedding anniversary, and while we were pulling up - you get there by ferry - and while we're pulling up, I'm looking at that wild coast and all the marshland and the beautiful trees and it's just kind of spooky looking to me.

But I realized, we were married the same year that J.F.K.

Jr. and Carolyn Bessette were married in their secret wedding on Cumberland Island and it happened a few months after our wedding.

And I remember sort of being obsessed with that, being a Georgia girl.

Right.

And as we're pulling up to the island, I realized it would have also been their 25th wedding anniversary and all the hair, you know, stood up because I thought, oh, what a place.

Plus the history there is so long, it it just seemed like the perfect place to tell a ghost story.

So I started with that inspiration.

And then the idea of folklore and legends and myth and southern mythology.

So, the two things kind of met for me there on that island.

And that's where I started to, I don't know, formulate what I was going to do with these fictional characters.

(Holly) Right.

I'm kind of hanging on to something you said right there in the beginning when you said, “Yes, I believe this, but I wanted to write and figure out why I believe this.” So do you feel like writing is kind of a self-discovery process for you?

(Kimberly) Oh, absolutely.

I'm still even having finished the book now.

This is the first interview I've done about it, and I'm still trying to figure out what what I'm what I'm learning about myself from the writing, what I'm learning about the world around me.

What do I really believe about stories?

I think what I mean is, I think stories are an essence of humanity.

I think, when I was there on that island, I know there is a river there, and this will be familiar to you where the tide runs both ways.

Right?

And I think stories do that.

They run both ways and we carry them with us from our pasts, from our futures, the dreams that we have for our futures.

And I think that is what gives us - our stories - the spine and the courage and the bravery to make choices in a moment and to make a choice for the good of someone else that we might not make just for ourselves.

I think that's what I mean when I say all stories are ghost stories.

They're our ghosts.

(Holly) And, you know, we were talking earlier about we were brought up, you know, in the deep south.

(Kimberly) Yeah.

(Holly) Hey, we you kind of sound like me, and I want to sound like you.

And so I think that we could probably both agree on another thing in that - that self-discovery process, even as adults, sometimes, realizing, like, wait, you know, I love my parents, but this is what I was supposed to believe.

I don't really believe that.

(Kimberly) Yeah.

(Holly) And I didn't know I didn't believe that.

But now I'm realizing I don't believe what I thought I believed.

(Kimberly) You examined, yeah.

(Holly) So, have you had some “a-ha” moments through that process?

(Kimberly) Oh, sure.

This book absolutely was about how we make heroes.

You know what we - who we make heroes of in our country, in our family lore, in our communities.

The ghosts that we carry forward and and how we how we tell those stories, how we position things.

And in this particular fictional story, there's a young man that drowns and when that photograph is developed in 1959, they look at that and they sort of make a community mascot out of this kid.

But it was a tragedy.

And so you have to wonder, you know what?

Where, where do you cross a line there with their stories and what's true and what's not true, what we fabricate for what we need at the moment, those kinds of things.

And boy, aren't we famous for that in the south?

In all of our ghost tours, and there, there's beauty and there's bravery and courage and then there's some sneaky stuff we do too.

(Holly) Do you find as a writer it is difficult to remember?

I mean, you have to do so much research (Kimberly) A lot of research.

(Holly) And then realizing, wait did this actually happen?

Do you do you keep like a true book and a false book?

(Kimberly) This is absolutely true.

And I tell people, I tell people this every time I was interviewed for my last novel, I am not a scholar.

I am not a historian.

I'm an accidental historian because I love the story part of it.

I'm a storyteller.

So yes, you know where those waters cross can sometimes be blurry.

(Holly) Yeah, it can be murky but it's a lot of fun, and I'm sure it keeps the adventure going.

All right, so tell me about some of your inspiration in terms of writing, like when did this all begin?

Let's kind of start whenever you realized, “Wait, I might be on to something here.” (Kimberly) Storytelling.

When I was a kid, I, I got in trouble a lot for storytelling because I had a huge imagination.

I told the kids on the playground that my great, great grandfather was a ghost in the woods behind the playground.

There was a sawmill back behind the playground, and we could hear it, and nobody knew what it was because we were little kids and had everybody frightened.

And so I had to apologize to my class.

So it began early <laughs> the writing began early, you know, with terrible poetry and all of the same things and the language arts fair and all of the things.

Right?

The first time I published was almost an accident.

I had a - I was very lucky and very grateful that a published author said to me, you know, “You're funny.

Have you ever written anything” And if you read my work, it's not necessarily very funny, but, I wrote a short story that she published.

It was a memory of my mom's from her childhood, and I “sweetened it up,” like you say.

You know what's true?

What's not true.

And I didn't really expect to be published.

So it's almost an accidental career.

Like, I love to write, but I never thought I would publish.

My dad always said, “Have a job that gives you insurance.” (Holly) Yes.

This is fabulous advice.

(Kimberly) <laughs> I know!

And so I was a teacher for years and I loved it.

I love teaching, but I also knew that even while I was teaching, it was still all storytelling.

You know, it's all storytelling.

(Holly) So I'm loving this interview because you're always taking me where I was wanting to go.

Okay, so what the viewers at home can't see is that you and I are looking at all these students right now from the University of South Carolina, Beaufort.

And so they're in that moment of, like, probably hearing their parents say that same thing.

(Kimberly) Yes.

(Holly) “Get a job.” (Kimberly) That's right!

(Holly) But then they're like - (Kimberly) “We're so glad you're creative!

It's lovely and wonderful.” (Holly) That's right!

“But do that after the job!

So what would you tell somebody that's kind of in that stage of life?

(Kimberly) That it's true.

(Holly) Okay.

(Kimberly) That you should go to school for a job that will support you so that you can be an artist.

It's smart to do both.

That's what I think.

I, I, I will never regret going and being a teacher.

It honestly was - There's something to performing, right, and and the creative part of it.

But to be able to share that, is a, it's a whole different thing.

So I loved that.

And I loved having the security that that provided for me to then be able to, to do my art, to do my craft.

(Holly) Sure.

I've been fascinated by the number of people who sat in that same chair and have told me like, well, “I was formerly a nurse or I was formerly a teacher.” - all these different things that they've done - How do you think that that profession, if at all, has helped you as a writer?

(Kimberly) You have to be a person.

You have to live a life or you don't have a story to tell.

You can sit and ruminate on things, but it will be the same story over and over and over again.

I, I taught creativity workshops for a while and did some women's retreats out on Sullivan's Island.

And then Covid came along and I've not done it as often as I would like.

I actually finished writing my own books.

<laughs> But, to me, I think we are, we are creative creatures.

And and that kind of brings me back to what we were talking about, about story.

I believe that that is what makes us human, that we can reflect and that we can dream and we tell stories, and creativity is part of that.

I think it is part of our makeup as human beings.

So I guess that answers your question.

(Holly) It does.

And let's talk about the the mentorship and, you know, doing those writing workshops.

Why do you think that that's something that you need to do?

Well, I know you said right now it's kind of on pause, but like you've you've spoken at things and I've seen how you've been involved with the Pat Conroy Literary Center.

(Kimberly) Yeah, what an honor.

(Holly) Why do those sort of things?

(Kimberly) Why go and teach creativity?

Because I think, it's like a pendulum.

Especially and for me as a woman, you go through, you know, your early years where you're very creative and then you decide, oh, I have to be this responsible creature.

And then you may have children or other responsibilities and you lose, you lose the - the bravery to dream, to let yourself dream, I guess.

And so at some point, I felt like giving back to women who were in that space where it was all about responsibility and they weren't feeling creative, or they didn't feel like they could give themselves permission to do that anymore.

Because you give it all to the people in your lives, maybe, or to a job.

(Holly) Right.

(Kimberly) And you're too tired.

And I find that when you open the door to that again, to that space in, in your brain to be creative, that it feeds all the rest of the areas in your life.

And it it goes both ways, right?

Seems to be a theme that I like.

(Holly) Yes.

Tell me about your audience.

Who your target audience is.

Of course, it's everyone out there who reads a book, but - (Kimberly) I was gonna say, Buy the book, buy the book!

<both laugh> (Holly) Yeah, yeah, yeah but, tell me, who are you really going after?

Who are you wanting to, you know, touch their heart string?

Maybe make them think?

(Kimberly) I think I write for - for family, for for anyone who's reflecting on family, and I, I always say southern, but it's not necessarily southern.

And I often say women, but it's not necessarily women, and it's not necessarily, you know, a family in terms of your ancestry or your descendants or your children.

It's not always blood family.

It's about connection.

It's about found family.

I think, and I think that that is a very southern theme, right?

Yes.

(Holly) Yes, sure.

(Kimberly) But when I travel and speak, I find that it translates to just humanity.

(Holly) Do any of your readers ever surprise you?

Like, “Wow, I didn't know that that's what they would get out of it.” (Kimberly) Yeah.

(Holly) And how was that experience?

I think I would like that.

(Kimberly) Well, I think to, you know, when you're - when I was younger and I first started writing, I would always get asked if I was writing children's books, as a woman.

And then they ask me, “Oh, are these books for women” Right?

And so I'm always still just a little surprised when it's a male reader who connects with the work.

I'm always happy about that because I don't write, particularly for women.

I write for everybody.

And, I'm always still surprised to find it in a bookstore where nobody knows me or my dad.

They're not doing me a favor to have it there.

So it's exciting to to see it translate.

(Holly) That's gotta be neat.

(Kimberly) Yeah.

(Holly) All right.

So we're so we're at historical fiction.

I have a few questions off of that.

But first I want to know about your research process and has it - (Kimberly) <laughs> It's horrible!

(Holly) You know, there was a time I feel like, that the research process took literally took people to these exciting places.

But thanks and no thanks to the internet, you can just be in the comfort of your home and go to these places.

(Kimberly) Yeah.

(Holly) Maybe the travel experience isn't as exciting anymore.

But anyway, I'm wondering, you know, has has it led to some exciting?

places for you?

(Kimberly) It has.

I mean, I went to Cumberland, I actually was there before I really knew what I was going to write about with this, but, no, I mean, a lot of it is in my head.

Still, a lot of it is the internet.

I mean, the internet's like magic.

It's like having a library in your own house.

Right?

And for an introvert, it's like, “Yay!

I don't have to -” I could put my baseball cap on.

We were talking about this.

I'll just stay here and do this.

So a lot of it is my imagination still.

But research-wise, I do like to find materials.

Like I read a lot.

I do read some that is digital.

If I'm moving fast.

But I like to put my hands on things.

I like to go to a place to feel, even if I'm just in a similar environment, to feel what it feels like, to smell what it smells like, to eat the food, to hear the music, to see how the people react to one another.

I love old photographs, you know, that's a thing.

I- and it's funny, there's photographs in this book.

You can find the things I think in my work that inform it because I'll use them.

(Holly) Right.

I mean, it's just like, you know, in the workplace with a Zoom call versus an in-person meeting, it's like - it will surprise you (Kimberly) It will surprise you.

(Holly) They're different in-person, you know?

(Kimberly) It will surprise you.

(Holly) You get more of an authentic self that way.

So yeah, I think so.

All right.

So if you, if you decided to take a different route, what's another route you would take in writing?

(Kimberly) In writing?

(Holly) Yes.

(Kimberly) Horror.

(Holly) Yes?

(Kimberly) Horror.

(Holly) I'm not totally shocked because of all this ghost story talk.

(Kimberly) If I was brave, because my ghosts are not mean and they're not scary.

My ghosts are, you know, the - my house is haunted like my grandmother's in my kitchen and will not leave.

She's always there right when I make the biscuits.

There she is.

And I hear her.

Or - (Holly) Okay, now are you really hearing sounds?

(Kimberly) No, I'm not crazy, but I'm - I am- I am aware of her.

I am aware of the memory of her.

(Holly) You can feel a presence.

(Kimberly) And those kinds of ghosts exist in my current fiction.

I think I would like to go a step farther with that one day, and write something that's a little bit out of my comfort zone - and just see what I came up with.

(Holly) Yeah.

(Kimberly) It'd be fun.

(Holly) Have you toyed around with it yet?

(Kimberly) Not yet.

I'm thinking about it a little bit for the next book.

(Holly) Okay.

All right.

Tell me who your inspirations are in terms of authors.

(Kimberly) So ghosts are Jess Kidd.

She's an Irish author.

I'll take an Irish author any day.

I love her.

I love Lauren Groff.

(Holly) Okay (Kimberly) You have had some of my favorites, Patti Henry and, Robert Gwaltney is wonderful.

I love his southern gothic.

I have a friend named Emily Carpenter who has a new book coming out next year.

She's a wonderful, southern gothic, author and she writes the creepy stuff.

So she's a lot of fun.

(Holly) Tell her about us!

(Kimberly) I know - (Holly) Maybe she needs to be here too!

(Kimberly) I know, I need to.

(Kimberly) Karen White, you had Karen White on.

(Holly) Yes, we have, yes.

We've had a lot of good people.

All right.

So, I always do like to talk a little bit about just that camaraderie that you all have as writers.

Even after all these years of talking about it, I'm still just intrigued by it because it's like you're with your competition and - (Kimberly) No.

(Holly) but you're supporting each other and you're - (Kimberly) Yeah.

(Holly) pulling for each other and reading each other's work.

And I just think it's so cool.

So tell me a little bit about how that is and kind of what it does for you.

(Kimberly) I was at dinner last night with Bren McClain - (Holly) Love her!

(Kimberly) - and Mary Martha Greene, who's one of your local cookbook authors.

(Holly) Oh yes.

(Kimberly) She's lovely.

And we had a conversation about this.

Writers are strange creatures, so we look for one another, we understand what our work is.

Our work is so isolating at times.

Like you have to be good with and want to be alone with your own thoughts.

Not everybody is comfortable being alone with their own thoughts.

And then, when the book is done, you realize you're rather lonely, right?

You're alone.

And so to talk to somebody else about that work, that kind of work that understands it, whom you can disappear on for months and years at a time and then still come back together.

And they know what that process is, is very meaningful to me.

I think, too, you know, the mentorships that I've experienced, I would - I would have never had the courage to write the books that I've written without them.

And I, I think it is what I value the most about the process.

You know, having a published book.

That's great.

It's a lot of fun, you know, it gives you a real zing when it first comes out and you're excited to see it there, but it lasts for that long.

(Holly) Right.

(Kimberly) What really matters are the relationships.

And you, you find yourself sitting across the table from somebody and thinking, I cannot believe that I'm sitting here, that I get to talk to you because you've read their work, and it's the closest thing to being able to have a dream simultaneously with someone else.

When you read their work and then discuss it.

So it's very cool.

(Holly) That's very cool.

(Kimberly) Yeah.

(Holly) When you talk about the disappearing, are you one of those people that- “Have y'all heard from Kimberly?” “No, she must be writing a book, because -” (Kimberly) I'm gone, I'm gone.

(Holly) “She is off the grid.” (Kimberly) You ask, I'm gone.

And I- (Holly) What's that like for you?

I mean is it just -?

(Kimberly) I didn't think that I was an introvert when I was growing up.

Because I like stories.

And so I like to talk and - but I run out of - my battery goes flat.

(Holly) Mm-hm, I can identify with that.

(Kimberly) Right?

And so, I, I know as an adult, now, that that's something that I need in my life.

So it actually works for me very well to, to be able to just sort of suspend <laughs> life for a little bit and - (Holly) Disappear then recharge a little?

(Kimberly) Yeah.

(Holly) That's the recharging part, and then - That's great.

Well, this has been fast and fun, but unfortunately it's time to end.

It's been really fun hearing all about your work, and especially like the ghost stories and the spookiness of it all.

Thank you so much for coming here for "Books by the River."

(Kimberly) Thank you.

(Holly) And thank you all for joining us.

We know that you have a choice when it comes to your news and your entertainment, and the fact that you landed here with "Books by the River" really means a lot to us.

We'll see you next time.

(Kimberly) Dooley had said that all stories were ghost stories - an exchange of spirit between the world and the human heart that rode on an inhale and an exhale.

Stories to Dooley were elemental.

Cleo couldn't have doubted that truth if she'd tried.

She'd imagined all of those stories he told drifting past her heart, slipping around the forest of her bones.

It was no wonder the figments of her imagination trailed at her heels.

They were good company, as she loitered near Dungeness.

Little Hannah stayed close as a shaft of that summer light and the melancholy fiddle tune carried over the shoals.

A serenade?

No.

A reminder she was not alone in her grief.

Cleo was grateful for the ragtag bunch of childhood memories she'd dragged out here with her, and she continued to paint them so they might be remembered even after she was gone.

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ Major funding for "Books by the River" is brought to you by the ETV Endowment of South Carolina.

For more than 40 years, the ETV Endowment of South Carolina has been a partner of South Carolina ETV and South Carolina Public Radio.

This program is supported by South Carolina Humanities, a not for profit organization inspiring, engaging, and enriching South Carolinians with programs on literature, history, culture, and heritage.

S.C. Humanities receives funding from the National Endowment for the Humanities.

Democracy demands wisdom.

Additional funding for "Books by the River" is provided by Visit Beaufort, Port Royal and Sea Islands, and Osher Lifelong Learning Institute at USC Beaufort.

♪ ♪