Announcer: The views and opinions expressed in to the point are those of the hosted, the program and its guests.

They do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of WGTE public media.

Doni: There are few things in life more difficult than losing someone you love.

You're not sure what to do or how to feel and others who want to help.

Often really don't know what to say.

Well-meaning phrases like Try not to think about it or She's in a better place, really don't help much at all.

The truth is that grief is a personal journey, and while the support of others is important, there are steps that only you can take to move toward healing.

Maren Simon, Bereavement Team Coordinator of Hospice of Northwest Ohio, is here today to lead us through this important discussion.

Welcome to the Point.

You can connect with us on our social media pages.

I would really love it if you would email me at doni _miller@wgte.org.

And as you know, for this up episode and other additional extras, please go to wgte.org/to the point.

I am so glad to be able to introduce Maren Simon to you this morning.

Maren is the bereavement team coordinator with Hospice of Northwest Ohio.

And this is a particularly important time to talk about the issue of grief and managing grief.

And thank you so much for spending this part of your day with us.

Is there anything harder than losing somebody you love?

Maren: Not that I'm aware of.

I mean, in the work that I do, I see people at their most challenging time and the loss of a loved one or somebody special important to you.

If you've never experienced it before, it can be a total whirlwind, can take you can be so disorienting, take you off guard.

And so a lot of times people don't realize just how hard it can be.

And that's not something that we talk about often in our society.

So I think that isolates the experience even more and makes it so that we don't realize just how hard it can be until it's us, which is inevitable for everyone.

Doni: And then and it's a process that there is absolute, you know, roadmap through.

Right?

Right.

It's your process.

It's your very own process.

Maren: Exactly.

You know, people are oftentimes coming to see a grief counselor.

Sometimes they've heard of, say, like the five stages of grief.

So denial, anger.

Doni: The Elizabeth Kubler.

Maren: Exactly.

Which Kubler-Ross gave us.

So much knowledge about grief and loss.

But a lot of it was actually meant to be talking to the experience of somebody who's dying themselves, not necessarily to the bereaved experience to the point which makes it really challenging them for people, if that's maybe all that they knew coming into this or even professionals, sometimes that's what they're taught in school, because there really is, like you said, there's not a road map.

I mean, we do know a lot about what grief is like and certainly having conversations about that can help people to feel less isolated, less lonely, less like they feel out of sorts because they're feeling so many different things.

So we talk about, you know, what is common to grief, Not that there's a stage or a way or a right or wrong, but what's common to it can be helpful to people.

Gives them something to go off of.

But we do get in sticky situations when we kind of follow or think that there's a right or wrong or that it is this certain way like a stages would suggest.

Doni: What do you find to be the most common challenge that people face as they're going through the grieving process?

Maren: Yeah, I mean, some common challenges people face.

One of the things you had mentioned in the introduction is just the things that people say to them.

So we have common platitudes that we say in our society, like they're in a better place now or they're no longer in pain.

And for somebody who's grieving, a common challenges they face is and again, well, well intentioned.

Sure, people have the best of intentions.

That's but getting support, the support they really need because comments like that aren't always helpful versus getting tangible support from people can be helpful.

So challenges being, you know, struggling with support from other people, more personal challenges that I see a lot.

I see a lot of guilt.

People really struggle with guilt feelings.

Doni: Why is that?

I'm just going to ask you about.

Yeah.

Maren: And and again, this might be my perception as a grief counselor, because again, the people that come in to see to see me are really struggling.

And so guilt how I would describe guilt in the easiest way is it's the I should have done this, I could have done this.

What if I had done this?

And I think what it is that sometimes we're trying to do when we're feeling guilt and we're searching through those those questions for answers, and I think some of my clients and people I work with would agree is we're looking for some way that they would still be here.

Doni: Mm hmm.

Maren: You know, if I had just done this or made this decision or helped them see this doctor or go to this hospital instead, or you name it, maybe they'd still be.

Doni: Is it that they're part of the process of accepting it?

And I mean, none of us want to accept that, that someone we've loved or something we've loved, you know, because grief can also be, as I'm sure you will agree about, maybe losing your favorite pet or it's any kind of any.

Maren: Kind of loss.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so I think it is a large part of accepting I mean, letting yourself feel those feelings, explore those questions, because sometimes with guilt or any number of things that might come up, people can try to push that away when really and this is kind of cheesy, but feeling is healing.

So letting ourselves feel is actually the route to healing.

But more often than not, we're trying to circumvent it.

We just don't want to feel that way.

But again, so much of something like trying to reach a place of acceptance means letting yourself feel it, letting yourself ask those questions.

Doni: How we work hard not to let ourselves fail during the grieving process.

Maren: Yeah, it's hard.

Doni: It's very hard.

It's very, very hard.

I always wonder why we do that when in fact you're never going to get through it if you don't accept that you've got some pain of your own.

Maren: Yeah, I think part of it is pain is uncomfortable.

It is so uncomfortable for us to let ourselves feel.

And when I'm talking about pain, I mean, like emotional pain, which sometimes in grief can feel also like physical pain.

Sure, it can physically hurt.

And it's just it's it's challenging to be vulnerable with that.

And again, we live in a society that we try to fix and kind of tuck it away when really, especially in grief, what we need is tending and supporting and not to try to fix it.

And that's what actually helps us walk through the pain.

Something helpful that I've shared with folks before is trying to and this comes from some grief experts trying to dose out the pain.

And by that I mean the same way that you would take if you're going to take an over-the-counter medication because you have a cold, you only take so much of it every 6 hours or something like that.

So same thing goes for our emotional pain.

We are made to withstand constant emotional pain.

We just will make ourselves sick.

And so to dose it out would mean little bits of it at a time is all we can take.

And it doesn't say anything bad about you that you can't take more than maybe 15 minutes a day is the time that I set aside to feel my grief, feel my pain, and then I can know that at the end of that I'll close that.

Doni: How do you get there, though?

Because it's I mean, you are drenched.

You can be drenched in that.

And feeling of having lost someone.

It's it can be consuming.

So how do we get the control that says, okay, grief, today you get 30 minutes of my life and that right.

Maren: And you're in the front seat instead of grief.

Griefing in the front seat.

Doni: That's right.

Maren: That's yeah.

I talk to people about that all the time.

I mean, you asked how how do we get there?

One of the ways talking to somebody not going through it alone.

So in that might be it might be a family member, it might be a friend, it might be a counselor like myself or I see all the time in our support groups.

When people get around other people, that's what really helps them get outside of themselves.

And by that I mean we can sometimes get so into our heads that it's hard to think about anything besides our pain.

And getting around other people can be so helpful and even just knowing, okay, the things that I'm thinking, the things that I'm feeling are normal.

And so I see the beauty of that all the time in group settings, or even with a counselor being able to share that and not be isolated.

And that can help you get to that place.

And again, it's a process.

It's not just something that happens overnight.

It takes some time.

Doni: It does take some time.

Maren: It takes some time.

And I know that sometimes people can have a reaction to it's just going to take time because that can be a little frustrating.

We sometimes we want more answers than that.

So I acknowledge it completely.

But there is something to some time passing with that support, with being in some kind of community of some kind.

Doni: What about storytelling in memory sharing?

Maren: Oh, so important.

So important.

I think about I mentioned groups and counseling.

One of the things we encourage people to do share and look at photos.

Think back on stories.

One of the most common fears I actually hear from people is they're afraid they're going to forget.

And so storytelling and sharing memories is one of the best ways that we can prevent that.

And again, I don't know that I've ever come across somebody that has just forgotten those things, but it's one of the best ways that we can at least reassure ourselves that we're not going to forget the things that we've shared, the person themselves, what they were like, their personality.

I mean, it's so important and with people that also knew them, but also you could do it with strangers.

So the people I work with, they're sharing with me.

I might have never known their person, but it's still so meaningful for them to be able to share, to share about them.

Doni: Right.

And it's okay to do.

I mean, you don't have to feel as though nobody really wants to hear it or I really shouldn't talk about this because it's my grief and my my story.

It's another one of those give yourself permission.

Maren: Yes.

Which is one of my favorite phrases.

Get permission to.

Doni: Yourself for rest.

Maren: And always, but certainly giving yourself permission to talk about them because their life mattered no matter if they are no longer here with us physically.

One of the things that comes up a lot in conversations with people is it's okay to say their name.

Doni: That's right.

That's right.

Yeah.

Hold that thought.

Yeah.

We're going to go away for just a minute.

We're going away.

But we will be right back with Maren Simon.

Jaden: The change of seasons, it can bring a strong sense of joy, but for others, that feeling is overshadowed by that empty seat at the family Thanksgiving or Christmas dinner.

Which is why on this week's edition of On Point, I'm asking people how do you cope with grief during the holidays?

How do you cope with grief during the holidays?

Katelyn: Well, I last.

Year I lost a really good.

Friend of.

Mine.

His name was probably Hall.

He did a lot of work around Toledo helping people with weight Lost.

He passed away from cancer and it was really it was really sad.

It happened, you know, for the holidays.

I, I cope with it by remembering the good times and being really grateful for having the time I got to have with him.

And pretty much just staying positive.

Jaden: How do you cope with grief during the holidays?

Sue: Well, I try to stay busy and I pray.

How do you cope with grief during the holidays?

Jeff: I try to remember the happy times with the person that is no longer with me, or in this case, like here, it's a pet.

One of my dogs had to be euthanized over the summer, and after 16 years with this and this is where we had a lot of walking where I remember her.

Jaden: How do you cope with grief during the holidays?

Melissa: Well, I actually just lost my best friend recently and it's really hard.

And I'm actually closer with her family since she's passed.

And I'm going to be spending Thanksgiving with them on point this week.

I'm Jadan Jefferson.

Doni: Welcome back.

Remember that you can connect with us on our social media pages.

You can always email me at doni _miller@wgte.org.

And as you know, for this episode and other additional extras, you should also go to that website wgte/org/to the point.

We are talking to Maren Simon today.

Maren is the bereavement team coordinator with Hospice of Northwest Ohio.

Doni: We were too.

As we went to break, we were talking about the importance of saying that name.

Saying that name, Yes.

Maren: So saying your person's name, keeping their memory alive, sharing about their lives.

And it's so interesting how important just saying their name is and maybe it's the absence of it that then suddenly makes us realize just how important it is.

But I hear from people all the time that they find the people around them, so their friends, even their closest family, people in their lives, people stop saying their name because they're afraid.

And the thought is maybe they're afraid that it'll make them sad or it'll it'll hurt them in some way if they say their name, when really the the desire is for us to say their name, to talk about them.

Because again, it is a reminder that they lived and their life mattered.

And and there's still so much love for them, even their absence, because that's exactly what.

Griffiths That's right.

It's love.

Doni: It's lot.

Maren: Yeah.

Yeah.

Doni: That's really a cool way to say it.

That is.

Maren: You're right.

Doni: Yeah, that's exactly what it is.

And I think people who are in the process of grieving can't get their head wrapped around the fact that at some point saying that name and telling those stories and reliving those memories will bring joy.

Yeah.

And they will bring joy.

You just you have to get there, right?

You just have to get there.

Maren: And that's such a challenge in early days and weeks, sometimes months, even year plus.

And again, I will reiterate over and over, as long as I'm alive, is that there is no timeline for grief.

Doni: Right.

Maren: And so there's not a point in which we've just moved on and we feel better now.

We're able to feel that joy again.

It's again, it's another part of grief that is a process.

Right.

And it is really challenging for people to know I will get there, especially, like I said, early days, weeks, months.

It just doesn't feel like it's possible because your mind is so overwhelmed by the darkness, by how heavy it feels.

And that's important.

I think it's our brains way of just trying to conceptualize something heavy has happened, something hard has happened.

And this is challenging, I mean, for us to understand.

And so the fact that it takes some time just makes sense for the way the human body works and functions.

Doni: And heals the way that the way we.

Maren: Hear.

Yes.

The same way that you would heal from a wound or a sickness or something like that.

But it is possible.

I see it all the time.

You know, a lot of times what we'll talk about with folks grieving is that there can be a fog, a fogginess.

Sometimes people use the word numb.

They might feel numb for again.

And that couldn't last months, right.

Doni: And the holidays, the holidays add an extra layer.

Maren: They certainly do.

And regardless sometimes of if you've had a loss or not, there's just there's a lot of expectation, a lot of maybe not pressure necessarily, but there is a way that we kind of expect the holidays to be right.

I reference the song, it's the Most Wonderful Time of the year all the time because the people I work with it, it might not be it might be the most dreaded time of the year.

And it's so it's hard to be around, you know, bright pretty lights and presence and cheer and the songs that are on the radio.

And it can be really challenging, really challenging time.

Doni: One of the things I would think, though, is that you'd have to fight the urge to isolate.

Yeah.

Maren: Yeah.

Because there certainly is a desire to do that and not to say it doesn't have its place to have some time to yourself.

It's okay to pull away, but really important to try to be around people and be around people that are safe and comfortable and understanding to you.

So, you know, around the holidays, a common thing that we do is family gatherings, you know, maybe.

And everybody has different traditions, but a lot of times it's spent with family of some variety or going here or going there.

And so for people that are grieving amidst the holidays, kind of asking yourself, who do I want to be around, who will be good for me to be around?

And reminding myself it is good to be around people, but I can choose who that is.

That is who I need in that time.

And knowing that it's okay to take breaks and step away and give yourself permission to stay home if you need to stay home.

Right.

But maybe having a plan in addition to that.

Yeah.

To connect with somebody.

Doni: I was just going to say that I think I think those of us with families and I have a huge family, we all expect to see each other and there's lots of food sharing because, you know, Americans celebrate with food and it's easy to not think about those people that don't have those connections.

But I think one of the things I would say to people who are feeling lonely is force yourself to get out.

And there are a million places that would love to have someone's help over the season, you know, shelters who need folks to to help with with feeding and, you know, meal distribution, lots of things to do.

It's hard, though.

It's hard to force yourself to get out and do it.

Maren: It's actually one of the things that we have a little booklet that talks about, you know, getting through the holiday season.

And one of the suggestions and it talks about is, is there a way that and do you feel comfortable again asking yourself that giving back in some way, getting involved in some way, being a part of something can be helpful, can make you feel that kind of gratitude can be a helpful thing to do.

And again, the connection piece being around other people.

Doni: Yeah, that's really important.

One of the things I wanted to ask you about and we have just a few minutes left to talk about it, but I think it's important.

I think I think that feeling of anger that people have in the beginning, like, why me?

Why did I lose this?

This person that I loved and they were a good person and there are lots of other people who aren't so good, but you took my good person.

When does that That is natural.

I assume it's a natural response.

When is it a problematic?

When does it get to be a problem?

Maren: Yeah, you know, again, like you said, very natural response and something I hear very often, one anger in and of itself and a very normal response that we have to grief.

Sometimes it's rooted in fear, sometimes it's rooted in pain.

So usually anger is a secondary emotion.

There's something beneath it for us, something more to it.

But, you know, to go into further that anger about, you know, why me, why them?

Really, when we're talking about that, we're talking about something feeling unfair and unjust.

And I think maybe the every once while people are able to kind of walk themselves through that and they kind of make sense of, okay, sometimes things just don't make sense and I can't make sense of them.

But if people are holding on to that for quite some time and the anger becomes debilitating in a sense that they're thinking about it constantly, that it's kind of overwhelming their daily thoughts.

It's something they think about every day.

It's inhibiting their ability to engage in their daily life tasks, in their work, or engaging with other people.

They find themselves getting angry at other people who might not have done or said anything to provoke that.

Right.

But something's kind of pressing a button about that.

And I would say at that point, really important to talk to somebody about it, to really work through those anger feelings so that it's not coming out in times when you don't want to.

Doni: Want to do it for yourself.

You guys provide services for the community as well as folks who are using the hospice service, don't you?

Maren: Yes.

Doni: Did you talk about that a little bit?

Because I bet many people don't know that.

Yeah.

Maren: Yeah.

So our bereavement services, we offer individual grief counseling.

So one on one with a grief counselor who's trained in grief and loss.

I mention that just because it can be challenging to find a counselor who specializes specifically in grief and loss knows what they're talking about in that regard.

Because there are nuances and complexities to grief.

And then we have support groups.

We have groups called Coping with Loss, which are for any type of loss, might be a parent, a sibling, a child, a friend, you name it.

And then we also have a spouse and partner loss support group and all different locations and times to try to accommodate People have varying schedules.

Some people work, some people don't.

And the thing I always try to emphasize emphasize about our services is they are free of charge regardless of if you if your person died on our hospice program or if you have any experience with hospice whatsoever, or if you're just in our community, it is free of charge to anybody.

So always highly encouraged folks to call us.

All you have to do is call and ask to talk to somebody in our bereavement department and then we go from there.

Doni: Yeah, that's really good to know.

And they can come as often as they like to this week.

Maren: So what we try to do and kind of according to our availability and what we're able to do for them as well is work with folks on what support do they need, you know, what would be really helpful to them.

Some people also have a therapist through like our community mental health system, or they're connected with their church.

And so maybe they only see us from time to time, or maybe they come in and see us every other week or so, anywhere in between and we try to accommodate that on a case by case basis.

Doni: So if we were going to leave people with a message today, I bet it would be give you sense.

Maren: It is.

You read my mind.

Doni: Give yourself permission.

Maren: Give yourself permission, please.

There's no right or wrong.

There are no should BS.

So do what you have to do and be kind to yourself.

That's the other part.

Doni: Give yourself some grace.

Maren: Give yourself some grace.

That's right.

It's okay if things look differently this year because you're different, right?

When you've experienced a loss.

And so, yes, give yourself permission.

Be kind.

Doni: Maren, thank you so much for being with us.

I so appreciate your time and talking about this difficult but extremely important topic.

You'll come back some time, won't you?

Maren: Of course I will.

Doni: Very great.

And thank you guys for spending this part of your day with us as well.

And we'll see you next time.

On to the Point.

Announcer: The views and opinions expressed in to the point are those of the host, the program and its guests.

They do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of WGTEpublic media.

This program was made possible in part by viewers like you.