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Jason Hibbs: How school curricula are developed is in the news these days with controversy over fears of how race and racism is taught in our schools, among other issues.

Now on this episode of Back Story, we have education professionals who've been involved in deciding what is taught in grades K through twelve.

Katie and STAT is the superintendent of Washington Local Schools and was the curriculum chair for the Perrysburg School District.

Chris Stein is chair of the Social Sciences Department at Perrysburg High School.

He teaches American and AP U.S. history to juniors there.

And finally, Linda Haycock is a former Ohio State Board of Education member.

Her term ended in 2020.

She's also a former local Lima City School Board meeting.

So glad that all of you could join us.

Thank you so much for participating in this important discussion, Katie.

You bring the curriculum expertize, but also the perspective of the top administrator in a local school district.

So I want to start with you, who currently makes the decisions on what content makes the cut, if you will, and does that differ from elementary, middle, high and the collegiate level?

Kadee Anstadt: In the end, Jason, the school board makes the decision, they're the ones that have the final say.

There are a lot of steps along the way.

Certainly we, you know, we talked to vendors who sell curriculum, but we also develop it locally.

We develop curriculum locally.

Everything starts with the state standards and then we look at the model curriculum that the state provides.

But in the end, teachers give an awful lot of input.

Always teacher committees are looking at the curriculum and then that's presented through the curriculum director to the superintendent who represents it to the Board of Education for final approval.

Jason Hibbs: Linda, can you talk a little more about that vetting process, what takes place there?

Linda Haycock: Well, the vetting process at a local level, the state of Ohio is definitely a local control state.

And so that vetting process takes place at the local board level and and just as Katie indicated, it's the it's the employees, you know, the curriculum directors at the at the schools that bring it to the school board.

Now the state board of Education, they're the ones who develop the standards for, you know, for what is taught through K-12 education and they develop the model curriculum.

But there is no, you know, mandate that any school district uses that model curricula in their schools because of the local local control.

There's also a lot of resources that are provided from the state board.

And there again, there's there's no mandate, there's no mandates, but there is, you know, in development of the standards, there's a lot of pieces that go into making those standards.

We have a lot of standardized testing that's going on.

And so some of those accountability pieces from the federal government and from the state certainly do indicate what is going to be taught.

But how it is going to be taught is up to the local level.

Jason Hibbs: So, Chris, what Linda just described, you're in the classroom every day is that the right approach is Ohio doing it correctly?

Chris Stein: I think so.

There's a lot of people that have input on what we do and what we teach in our schools.

Coincidentally, Katie hired me at Perrysburg High School so I can speak from from her side as well, that there was a lot of communication done with what goes on in the classroom.

There was already something in place when I came from my previous school.

What's actually happened to be a private institution?

So coming to the public school, it gave me a different perspective of seeing what was going on and for my own kids that also go here.

Jason Hibbs: Katie, let's circle back for a second.

We're talking about K through twelve now.

What about the curriculum decisions made at the universities in Ohio?

Kadee Anstadt: I'm involved way less with that, right?

So the universities, you know, in our case, we do have a partnership with a local university and sometimes those university courses do certainly cross over into K-12, especially at the high school level, where more and more we have students taking college classes during their high school years.

So definitely at the university level, a lot more academic freedom.

But just like when we were in school, there's a syllabus to follow.

And there are certain expectations for each course, just like we would have at the high school level.

Jason Hibbs: Linda, you mentioned a lot of local control, you know, in Ohio.

How does Ohio compare to other states?

Linda Haycock: Well, you know, I can't speak to every state, but there are certainly Ohio really prides itself on doing its own thing.

And and so it that local control piece has been highly valued for for a long time.

That's really where it where it belongs.

I I used to go around and tour different schools and even career technical schools.

And I think one of the best examples is, you know, you can you can teach the how or what like the standard, but how you do it really can take a local flair.

And I use the example of welding in a career technical institution.

And and so if you go down into Lemus City, they're they're going to be making products that will involve, you know, that's more urban, say, like they're going to be doing a fire pit for their backyard or they're going to be doing a mailbox or they're going to be making some other product like that.

Well, when you go into rural Ohio and they're going to and you go to the same, you know, they're learning the same welding skills, but the curriculum is actually there.

They're building animal pens because they're they're using them in their agriculture and their home.

And so, like I said, the standards everyone should be learning.

Case in point.

Learning to weld in this example.

But the how they do it is is crafted specifically for that school district and because to fit the needs, the desires, maybe even the local economy.

There are some business people that that get involved in what what do we need?

And so because they are, this is encouraging people to stay in their own communities.

And so that piece of taking those standards and having just as Chris said, having all of this input at the local level, I think is the best way to craft curriculum to meet the standards as well as meet the needs and the desires.

You know, when you're talking about parents and children, there's a lot of high emotion that goes into that.

And so their voices, those local boards of education are elected and they have a constituency and those constituencies, the ones that are involved or parents, and they should have they should have, some say in what's going on, there should be trust in our educators.

Although I have my degree in economics, I certainly couldn't go in and teach a world history class or or an English class.

And so there has to be the trust there from a parent that the English teachers are going to be collecting or, you know, selecting the appropriate books to read or the the events that happened in world history that that really are influential not only in our history, but even knowing where we are, how we arrived, where we are now in our community.

And so it's a it's really, really important that, in my opinion, to have those teachers to have parents, the school boards at that local level involved in the development of the curriculum or the how to teach the standards.

Jason Hibbs: So, Katie, right now there are two bills in the Ohio General Assembly House Bill 322 and 327.

They mandate subjects of a divisive nature, not be taught in grades K through 16 and prescribe penalties for individual teachers and districts for engaging in that teaching.

These are still in committee should state lawmakers be allowed to determine what is taught in the local schools?

What are the pros and cons of that?

Kadee Anstadt: So let's start with who gets to decide what's devices right.

I think that's the most important question we're looking at here.

Who do you want to speak for you?

I, you know, right here in Washington, local, I think I could speak for Perrysburg.

Linda would probably agree with me that really locally.

That's why we elect a school board and they get to decide what our community values, what comes into the classroom.

You know, I think sometimes the most extreme voices on both sides tend to drown out what is truly common ground and more conversations about where we agree things like should every child feel like they belong in our safe at school?

I think most of us could agree on that.

So let's start with that premise and then go from there.

But I don't think I want someone in.

I don't want to pick.

I want to pick a time that's actually not in a pile in, right?

I don't want to say a town and row under the bus, but I don't want I don't want someone from another town deciding what is divisive in Toledo, Ohio.

I think we get to decide that in our community and our community values.

That's where our community values connect.

So much of so many of these values belong at the dinner table, right?

They belong in our family conversations.

And but we also need to have our students ready for a workforce that is diverse and challenging and collaborative.

And when we start to have people weigh in that are on the extremes, I think sometimes we lose focus that our kids are in workplaces or will go into workplaces and colleges and universities that will have that too .

What are we doing in college if we don't wrestle with divisive subjects?

How are we preparing kids for a global economy?

We aren't.

And the same goes with as our kids.

Critical thinking and thoughts start to develop over their junior high and high school years.

These are the kinds of guided conversations we want to have.

Certainly, teachers remain neutral in these, but they want to guide these conversations to prepare kids for a global world.

Jason Hibbs: OK, we have to take a quick break, but we will be back with more backstory in just a moment.

Welcome back to back story, we're talking about curriculum in local schools, and let's jump right back in Chris.

Before the break, Linda was using welding as an example.

But as you know, parents are not packing school board meetings to talk about welding.

It's rice.

So let me just ask you, are you teaching critical race theory?

And what are you hearing from teachers and students about these issues?

Chris Stein: You know, one of the first things that I think of when I hear that is and I hate to answer a question with a question, but I always turn it back on the person and say, What do you mean by critical race theory?

Because I, I sometimes struggle with people when when they ask me about it, what does that mean to you?

You know, when you when you suggest that we're talking about race or racial issues, they're being taught in schools in terms of horse, in my class, anyways, in historical perspectives, you know?

So what?

What exactly does that mean?

If you look at it from the perspective of do I teach about reconstruction?

Do we post-Civil War?

And we're talking about how the country has freed four and a half million slaves and we're going into another period of time in our history?

You know, yes, we have to talk about that.

That was a major turning point in our in our country's history.

And we we have to discuss about how things are dealt in the Freedman's Bureau and other aspects that are coming up during that time period.

Are we going to move forward or are we going to talk about the KKK and the emergence of that?

And as we get into the early 1900s and talk about how over four or 5 million people were involved in the Klan?

And are we going to talk about the the reactions of the country?

Are we going to look at presidents who used such as Ulysses S Grant, who use force rules in order to limit the the quote terrorist activities that were going on?

Are we talking about the the advent of the NAACP in the early 1900s?

Are we looking at the civil rights movement between Dr. Martin Luther King and Malcolm X?

You know, there are aspects of race that that have to be taught.

It's part of it's not about Black America, white America.

It's about American history.

These are things that that are being taught.

Yes, we talk.

We also teach about the Chinese Exclusion Act and we talk about the Japanese internment camps and we talk about Native American policies.

I mean, there's a lot of different aspects when we talk about race.

You know, so I struggle with the term critical race theory, you know, because there's so many different things that that could be said.

It almost depends on who's asking me the question.

And what specifically are you talking about?

Jason Hibbs: Are you getting more pushback whenever you do talk about race as it relates to historical events than maybe you did in the past?

What are students and parents saying to you?

Chris Stein: I can, I can honestly say and just take this year as an example.

I have had one parent who emailed me at the very beginning of the year, but it was more out of curiosity about what I taught.

It turned out to just be a discussion about how do I teach my class?

What goes on?

What type of interaction do I have with the students?

And we talked for about.

And I ended up I'm like, We're not doing this over email.

We're going to have the conversation.

And we did it over the phone and, you know, it was just one of of interest.

And she wanted to know, how is her student being being taken care of?

What is being taught?

And it was a great conversation.

Other than that, I have had no emails from parents.

I have not had discussions in terms of outside of class.

Like, I can't believe you taught this or I can't believe you said this or anything like that.

It's all in the approach to because I'm not teaching my opinions, I'm not teaching what my politics are.

I am teaching about the past and how we have dealt with situations and hopefully that students can understand.

And I know we use this phrase in history a lot.

If you fail history, you're doomed to repeat it.

We don't want to make the same mistakes.

So I think I deal with with racial issues in a way that we're calm, we're talking, we're educating.

And and it makes sense in a way that we can have a constructive discussion when and if it comes up.

Jason Hibbs: Linda, the newly proposed laws in Ohio and many of them across the country aren't just addressing how race is talked about in the classroom, but also sexism.

And to be honest, I didn't know that people were upset about that.

Why is sexism and gender included in this in most of these bills?

Linda Haycock: Well, that's a loaded question, I because I can only give my opinion.

I wasn't a part of that decision making process as to why those were included in there.

I think that there is a lot of emotion that has been garnered over the last year that has wrapped up a lot of controversial issues, all in one that that a certain segment of the Legislature is concerned about.

Racism and sexism have very similar.

There's been policies I use Jim Crow, like Chris was saying, you know, they they speak about facts and so I like I like to think about facts.

And so you talk about racism.

It's the Jim Crow and redlining and sexism.

There were people, women who if they got pregnant, they lost jobs.

And so there is there's controversy with both racism and sexism, and they're they're bundled together out of.

I would guess out of fear and wanting to control the narrative as to as to what has happened in our history and and I think that teachers, I guess I have a lot of faith that truth needs to be taught.

Facts need to be taught.

And some of these these bills that you're referring to, I I am concerned that that facts, you know, someone controls the narrative, the facts can change and history is history.

And whether it is painful, whether it is uncomfortable or awkward for us to talk about or to to change.

Well, we need to address those things.

That's what's the nature of, you know, when you know better, you do better.

And I think that we as a community can do better in addressing issues that deal with sex and issues that deal with race.

And it's concerning to me that if teachers are anxious about teaching fact in the schools that they could be fined or penalties could be could be rendered against them.

Jason Hibbs: Katie, do you have anything to add to that?

Kadee Anstadt: You know, I'm going to go back to that comment I made earlier, Jason, about.

Do could we at least agree that all children should be safe at school?

I think we could.

Right.

And that's really where these conversations start.

Any time you're trying to elevate one group over another, that becomes divisive.

And in this case, loud voices on the extremes weighing in.

But let's go back to the core beliefs that we all have.

All children should be able to go to school and be safe.

No matter how I identify, no matter what I look like, no matter what my family background is, I should be able to come to school and be safe.

And I think we're on a very dangerous slope here when we start to tell educators what they can and can't do, who they can accept, who they should reject.

This is a very dangerous slope and history would tell us that we're in a very slippery place right now.

Jason Hibbs: Katie, if either of these bills became law, how would that be implemented at the local level and.

In the past, have there been times when the state has withheld funds due to curriculum decisions made at the local school?

Kadee Anstadt: You know, we hear a lot of blustering about that, but I've never been.

I've never been a victim of it and I can't imagine anybody would.

I think it again.

It goes all back to would you withhold funds for me to ensure that a student is safe at school?

Gosh, I'd be willing to fight that.

I would.

This is these are civil rights issues.

These are issues that could be fought out in the courts.

And I think even if the Legislature decides what I think would be very ill advised and poorly written legislation, I believe that the courts in the end will decide.

Jason Hibbs: What's it like now?

What's the morale among fellow educators, you know, on top of COVID concerns, how are you guys feeling?

Chris Stein: I've been teaching for over 20 years, and when I came in, I wasn't worried about some of the things that I would say and think twice about, you know, how is this going to be perceived?

How is this going to be taken and somebody's going to send me an email?

And so I think there's there's a definite case throughout the years and especially in the last couple of years where the anxiety level has definitely risen and you compound it with the fact that we've been synchronous and asynchronous and virtual and hybrid and regular and that we're doing this and we'll mess, mess up and back and forth .

You know, when you teachers are facing distractions and issues and then you know, you have the unfortunate incident up in Oxford, which took place.

And I mean, these these things are constant and it's always in the back of your mind.

And and if you're if it's not there, there might be something wrong with you.

I mean, it's just there's no question that these issues weigh in on everything as well as when you hear this is being put at the state level and that's being put at the state level.

And and where is this coming from?

Who is the legislator listening to where?

I've never had a legislator come up to me and talk to me and say, What do you think about this?

And what are they talking to teachers?

Are they talking to superintendents?

Are they talking to board members or are they just talking to somebody who I think Katie said is on one extreme or the other and trying to come up with a bill because they're listening to somebody who talks the loudest.

But you're missing that, that I'll use a Nixon phrase.

The silent majority of of people who are rational and understand that what teachers are going through and everything.

So I mean, there's no question there's there's a heightened level of anxiety.

And I think you also see it in the lack of people that are going into education.

Jason Hibbs: Linda, if parents do have curriculum concerns, what is the best way for them to voice those concerns?

Linda Haycock: Go to the teachers first to find out exactly what the curriculum is.

If there are are points of concern, then you can take it.

Most school districts have a curriculum director and working together with the teacher, the curriculum director, the superintendent, you can maybe address some of those concerns and then get it taken care of, right, right there.

And then they as they send it to the school board.

I'm sure it would be a topic of conversation, but those conversations need to take place face to face.

Go talk to the teachers, go talk to the curriculum director first.

You know, I think there are a lot of people who are talking, and it isn't necessarily the loudest voice that has the best facts or the greatest knowledge.

And so go to the people that have the answers for you.

The teachers know what the curriculum is.

The curriculum director knows what is being taught in those classes, so go to them.

Jason Hibbs: Chris, about 30 seconds left, you get the last word.

What do you want parents to know?

Chris Stein: I want them to know that when they're in my classroom, that they are safe, that they that they can trust me and that I'm going to do my best to to educate them on all sides, all points of view, and that I'm going to do my best to ensure that when they leave my, my classroom, that they have become a better person for it.

And and I know I even had my own, my own son in my class, and I could see it on a different perspective, even at home and understanding that what he is getting coming out of my classroom.

I think it's worthwhile.

So I saw it from all different points of view.

And I think that's the biggest thing is trust when you come out of the classroom.

Jason Hibbs: Chris Stein, Katie Anstadt and Linda Haycock, thank you so much for joining us on this conversation and thank you guys at home for watching backstory.

I'm Jason Hibbs and we'll see you next time.

Announcer: BackStory is made possible in part by KeyBank with additional support from the League of Women Voters and by viewers like you.

Thank you.