Announcer: The views and opinions expressed in To The Point are those of the host of the program and its guests.

They do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of WGTE public media.

Doni: Ohio Republicans introduced Senate Bill one to overhaul higher education, stating the changes are necessary to curb liberal bias on university and college campuses.

That bill recently became law.

Some view this legislation as essential for supporting intellectual mediocrity on college campuses, and see it as a tool against the indoctrinatio of students into woke ideology.

On an earlier... To The Point.

Democratic Senator Paula Hudson a strong opponent of the bill, argue that the legislation overlooks the real concerns of the country.

We promised you another perspective and our guest today is Republican State Senator Theresa Gavarone a supporter of this initiative.

Join us for part two of ou discussion on Senate Bill one.

I'm Doni Miller, and welcome.... To The Point.

Connect with us on our social media pages.

You know that.

You can email me at doni_miller@wgte.org, For this episod and any other additional extra that you might want to see go to wgte.org./to the point.

So a few episodes ago, we had, Democratic Senator Paul Hudson on.

We were talking about Senate Bill one, pretty controversial bill.

Many call it historic in nature.

Senator Hudson was absolutely opposed to that bill, saying that it was restrictive and missing it.

So many of the issues that are important to people in the state of Ohio today, w promised you in that discussion a different perspective.

We have that perspective today with Republican State Senator Teresa Gavarone.

Thank you so much for being with us today.

Really appreciate your time.

Theresa: Thanks for having me.

Doni: Why don't we just give people an overview an overview of Senate Bill one?

From your perspective.

Theresa: Senate Bill one is really a student focused, merit based, higher education reform, making sure that when students families invest in higher education, they're getting the best education they ca for their child, setting their student up for success for that next step in life.

Doni: And you think the current system of education misses that mark?

Theresa: Well, I over the years I have heard a lot from, from students and, students saying, I can't say what I really believe really in, in the classroom.

I can't raise my hand and express an opinion, or I can't write a paper based on what I truly believe, because I know that'll mean a bad grade.

And so when when you hear those kind of things, you want to look at what?

Why would a studen not feel free to express their their true beliefs?

I've had I've had student who've worked in my office that.

Oh, yeah I couldn't write what I thought I had to write what I knew tha the professor believed because.

Doni: I believe not what the professor was teaching about the subject.

Theresa: People.

But I'll give an example.

Well, abortion is an example.

Some very pro-life students fel that they had to write a paper all about being pro-abortion.

Because they knew that's where their teachers or professors stood on the issue.

And if they wrote a different perspective, they would not get a good grade.

And we know how important grades are when we get to the university level.

A another one regarding the environment and the, you know, green energy initiatives and things like that, that people when students, didn't feel free to, to express their beliefs.

Where I think it's important that all ideas are on the table, then, that students are free to express their opinions and that, professors encourage a diversity of thought in the classroom so that we get that back to a real debate on issues as opposed to just one side being, forced upon students.

A real diversity of thought.

Doni: Yeah.

Yeah.

Theresa: I think it's so important that our universities teach kids how to think instead of what to think.

So that we encourage that critical thinking that that we should want our students to develop when they go to an institution of higher education.

Doni: How do you thin this bill will effectuate that?

You you can't legislate the way someone thinks or the way I, I find it difficult to understand how you would legislate the way a professor would present his material in class.

Theresa: All sides of an issue.

And certainly if there's a controversial issue being discussed, all sides of the issue should be discussed and encouraged instead of just one sided.

We want to make sure that, that our students are equipped with the skills to think critically through these complex issues.

And that's the kind of.

Doni: Thing you legislate that how, how are you going to make sure that that civil procedure, professor is really or the constitutional law professor or I'm talking about law.

Theresa: School now.

Oh, I'm an attorney I went to law.

Doni: School to how, how are you going to make sure that they present it the way the bill intends for them to present the material?

Theresa: Well, certainly.

We're making greate transparency with the syllabus and making sure that that information is available to students, to families.

In a very transparent way, so that people know the topics that are being discussed.

We have greater training for our boards of trustees, making sure that, that they are looking at the course curriculum and making sure we're doing what we can to encourage that.

Again, diversity of thought so that all sides of an issue can be discussed and deliberated instead of just one side.

Students know what they have to write.

They write that one side.

And and then we keep the one on, so that all sides can truly be, fleshed out and discussed and debated and deliberated and that that's the idea of the legislation is is trying to make sure we're we're giving students those critical thinking skills and making sure that all sides of a debate that people know how to, how to address those issues and dive into those issues instead of just a one size.

Doni: I'm still struggling a little bit, with why legislation was determined to be the most appropriate and efficient way to get this done, because at the end of the day, there's there's not someone sitting in the room policing what's being said by the professor or there's not someone watchin the way the papers are graded.

I think I think the point is exactly what education is all about.

Right.

I totally agree with you on that.

I'm just struggling with this methodology for addressing the issue.

Theresa: Well, certainly.

We've got, greater accountability with this bill as well, including post tenure review.

And if students, feel that they've been, like, shut out of a conversation because they don't believe the same thing, the professor believes that can be reported.

Doni: How do you know?

And this is one of the questions that came to my mind, when I started researching this, when the students are writing you, those letters, how do you know that they're just not upset with the professor or upset with the grade?

Theresa: Well, I actuall some of the people I talked to said I wrote it this way and I got a good grade.

So, but I've heard from so many students over the years and even students who've worked for me.

So from a variety of different backgrounds and is that really what we want for our students to just say what they need to do to pass, rathe than really dive into an issue and think things through and hav again, teaching kids.

Doni: How to think.

Absolutely.

And and colleges, universities are designed they're intended for that rationale or maybe sometimes irrational exchange of ideas.

I think that's important.

Absolutely.

I just again, I struggle a little bit with, with this particular way of getting to that end.

I'd like to ask you there another question about this bill.

It seems to be pretty far reaching.

I mean, it addresses things like the ability of faculty to strike, do you think it's a bit of an overstep?

Theresa: No, actually, our teachers, our professors ar really important to education.

And if you think about it, when you've got, you know, fire, police, law enforcement that can't go on strike because of their importance.

I mean, teachers are critically important to the education of these students.

And when families and students, inves and pay upfront for an education to have a teacher or professors go on strike when the student had nothing to do with whatever contract negotiation is going on, the students paid for this education.

They shouldn't lose out on that investment because of a contract negotiation between a professor and and the administration.

Teachers are critically important to this process.

Doni: What about though the rights of the teacher in this particular case?

What about the rights of the professor?

What about if they are?

How do you protect their rights in this process if they're not allowed to strike?

That's really the only option they have.

If negotiations are not going well.

Theresa: This bill is student focused.

It's making sur that that students who invest, you know, sometimes tens of thousands of dollars to go to a university in Ohio are getting the education that they paid for.

And if the teachers aren't able to come to an agreement, with, with the administration, then that's something they can look at.

They just can't strike well and affect the education that these students and families have already paid for.

Doni: I wonder, though if you are going to get the best performance out of the professors, which is exactly what you're trying to do.

And while protecting the rights of the student who've paid for their education, I wonder if you're going to get the best performance out of that professor, if he is angry because he feels as though he's not being listened to.

Because this legislation has require that he not be able to to strike when many, many that he not be able to strike when many other unionized, folks are able to strike again.

Theresa: You know, we teachers are critically important to this process.

And when the student pays for an education, they should get the education that they paid for.

And, and there are other important union position that aren't allowed to strike.

Doni: Teachers are critically important.

Thank you for that.

We're going to go to break right now.

But think about this as we go to break.

Nurses are allowed to strike.

Theresa: Not all nurses... Doni But some are allowed to strike.

But let's let's talk about this a bit more when we get there.

Okay.

We'll be right back.

Doni: Welcome back To The Point.

If you missed our first segment of the show, we have with us Republican State Senator Theresa Gavarone.

We're talking about Senate Bil one, which recently became law.

It's a very broad bill from my perspective, but it's one intended, according to the senator, to make sure that we are maintaining intellectual freedom on campuses.

Moving toward a syste which is based on meritocracy, a meritocracy.

Folks would disagree with you.

When with when you support the premise that it's already, that it's not a meritocracy.

Theresa: Well, what the bill does is it does eliminate dei diversity, equity and inclusion.

Really focusing on, on, you know, a merit based system, making sure that students are earning their position.

You know, to get where they are, that scholarships are merit based, that we're making sure that, that getting into university is merit based.

The Supreme Court a few years back said that, affirmative action is unconstitutional.

And this just kind of looks at that and says, well, why why aren't we looking to get rid of of race, color, religion, gender, and and look at, at merit and making sure that we're not pitting different groups against each other, that we're all working hard to get the best outcome in the best education and that our results are based on on those successes and the hard work, as opposed to, being put in one class or another.

Doni: So let me ask you about this.

That promise makes an awful lot of sense.

If it were not for systems that were inherently that are inherently unequal and who, and which cause folks to come to the front door of those universities without equal skill because they don't have equal opportunity.

So if I am a child an I am raised in a school system that consistently fails, and you are a child who was raised in a school system that consistently excels because of issues of poverty or because of issues of discrimination, how do you then pretend that those things don't influence the opportunity to compete equally intellectually?

There there is.

It would be wonderful to pretend like none of those things happened, but they did happen.

And it's DNI is not designed from most points of view to allow people in who are totally unable to do the work.

The students that are getting in are able to do the work.

They are smart people.

They just haven't been given the same opportunities.

And if you look at the rate of poverty in, in just in the state of Ohio, it's really difficult to argue with that.

Theresa: We need to d everything we can to make sure everyone has the same opportunities growing up.

And, certainly we're working on K through 12 education, making sure tha that all students are lifted up and given those same opportunities, to succeed.

And we need to continue focusing on equal opportunities for people.

And then you get when you're pitting different, races or genders or religious, you know, groups against each other, that that's not good.

I just had a former professor last week, talk to me about this and said, and said, you know, for years, whit people have been the oppressors.

And, and I'm looking at them like, you know, do we really want to teac students that they're oppressors just because of the color o their skin.

Doni: That they are?

What if the what if the reality of the country says that they are oppressors or or and and what if current statistics and and current analysis of the society show that they are.

Do we not?

Do we?

It's I would agree with you that that saying white people are oppressors is is a bit harsh, but pretending that that oppression doesn't exist in a way that keeps people from competing, the way that you are suggesting that they compete isn't going to get us anywhere.

Pitting one person against another is not a reason to deny smart people and women and women who greatly benefit from DNI programs.

It's it's it's not.

I struggle with making that a reason to to eliminate DNI programs in education.

Theresa: Well, I think it's I think it's harmful to tell a group that you're an oppressor because of the color of your skin, and you were oppressed because of the color of your skin or because of your your gender or religious background.

I think that's harmful.

Doni: Do you think it's harder?

I could tell you stories about my own oppression that are my own lived experiences.

And and it it's harmful for me to to own those stories and to tell them out loud.

Theresa: Tell your stor and look at where you've become.

You're an attorney.

You're a reporter.

I mean, you do a number of different.

Doni Not with the same opportunities that people who don't look like me had with a with a significant amount of struggle, that people who don't look like me faced it.

So I'm I'm not all I'm saying to you, Senator, is that the truth doesn't go away because we pretend it's not there.

And I think that we miss a great opportunity to bring people along to that equality that you mentioned, by trying to make sure that other people feel good about themselves.

Oppression is a part of this country's history, not just for African Americans, but for women, for Native Americans, for anybod who doesn't quite look like you.

And I think it's I think that's it's okay to talk about that.

Theresa: I think it's it's better to focus on the things that unite us as opposed to the things that divide us.

Doni: But from my point.

Theresa: Look, I'm a woman.

Yes.

So, but I don't want anything handed to me because I'm a woman.

I'm going to work hard.

I'm going to prove my worth.

And, And that's what I want.

I don't I don't want to be told I can't do certain things.

I need extra help to get somewhere because I'm a woman.

I want to get somewhere because I earned it.

Because I worked hard to get there.

And I think if we focus on the things that unite us, as opposed to dividing people by putting people in different silos, that we're all going to be better off focusing on, on merit as opposed to, those, those divisions that are created.

Doni: The challenge I have is the presumption in your statement that people who are using these programs don't work hard, and that they are not, Please go ahead.

Go ahead.

And you and I I want to talk to you about this offline over coffee because we're.

Theresa: And that's great.

And I think I think people work very hard.

And I think it's kind of insulting.

I'd be insulted if someone said I got where I was because I'm a woma and not because of my hard work and effort and grades and and everything.

They they got me right.

Doni: And that's and that's, that's a conversation that you hear from people who want to divide us.

That's not a conversation that you hear from people who want to move us all forward and who.

But there are other things in this bill that we should talk about.

Theresa: And I do just want to say, I think there's so much that unites us.

Doni: And I would.

Theresa: All agree with and that's, I think, where we should focus as opposed to putting people in different classes and, and, and dividing people that way.

Let's all come together on the things that, that, that unite us and that we agree upon.

And let's all work hard and do our best and, and put away the division and come together.

Doni: Yeah.

Yeah.

Again.

Coffee?

Sometime I want to talk about this book I would love it's a big, big subject.

And I really appreciate your willingness to allow us to explore this complicated issue, in the few minutes that that we have left.

So, there, when I was reading the bill, I didn't see a way or talk to people about how the states are responsible for responding to this bill.

Are they will colleges lose their, their, support, state support, federal support?

Theresa: I can't speak about anything federally.

Right.

But but in the state, we've already seen a lot of universities have been moving towards this direction over the years that, a lot of them have already implemented a lot of the things that are in this bill.

And I believe that the universities will be able to comply with, with the terms in this, in this bill and be able to, go forward and we're all going to be better off for it.

And our students are going to be better off for it.

Doni: And you mentioned as well and I'm sorry if this is a bit redundant that you see in other states is already doing this.

Theresa: Or actually in our state.

Doni In our state.

Theresa: As well.

So I can't really speak to other states, but I can tell you that there are universitie in Ohio that have already, work to implement a lot of what's in Senate Bill one.

Doni: And, this has been this is now been, put into law.

TheresA: Yes.

vAnd do you have does the Senate have continuing conversation with the universities to see how this is moving forward.

Theresa: Or we're always talking to our universities?

As a matter of fact.

You know, it' always a constant communication.

So we'll certainly be seeing how things go forward.

I know the chancellor of higher educatio has as work to do in this bill, and there'll be greate training for boards of trustees, through this bill and will there'll be a lot of communication as we, as we go forward in implementing it.

Doni: And lot and lots of talking about ways to make this better.

Lots and lots of talking to see if what you're doing is effective.

You have lots of evaluation of the process.

Theresa: Absolutely.

We'll be having all sorts of conversations.

And hopefully what this does is it really, you know, help students lift them up critically, think and be open to discussing topics that they felt they couldn't discuss before.

Doni: Thank you so much for being here.

I really appreciate your time and I'm going to call you.

Theresa: I would love that.

I'll give you my cell phone.

Okay.

Doni: Thanks so much for joining us today.

We will see you next time... on... To The Point.

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To The Point is supporte in part by American Rescue Plan Act fund allocated by the City of Toledo and the Lucas County Commissioners and administered by the Arts Commission.

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