Funding for To The Contrary provided by: This week on To The Contrary: They feel intimidated by men, but they feel judged by other women.

We have teenage girls, we have girls younger, dropping out of sports for this fear of judgment.

Allow people to just go into the gy and focus on the task at hand, which is growing their muscles, whether it be for aesthetics or for health.

Hello, I'm Bonnie Erbé.

Welcome to To The Contrary, a discussion of news and social trends from varied perspectives.

Many wome encounter significant challenges when exercising in gyms, and those challenges range from feelings of judgment about their appearance and their performance, to experiences of harassment and unsolicited comments.

A recent study found almos half of women reported receiving at least one unsolicited commen while at the gym, contributing to a sense of being constantly scrutinized and unsafe.

These experiences often lead to feelings of inadequacy and self-consciousness with some women avoiding certain areas of the gym, such as the weightlifting section, that due to its male dominated atmosphere.

Despite these obstacles, many women find empowermen through supportive environments and by challenging traditiona gender norms in fitness spaces.

With us to discuss these topics are Dr. Emma Cowley from the SHE Research Center and one of the authors of this study, and Disnella Santos, a fitness influencer.

So welcome to yo both to—to joining the program.

Let's—let me start with you, Dr. Cowley.

Why do women feel that offhanded comments are insulting?

Oh, well, I think—I think theyre the microaggressions, aren't they?

They're the comments that a lot of women receive from the gym that men often don't necessarily receive.

And I think, you know, whether this is taking up too much—more space, I suppose, than the woman or taking equipment that women might be using, giving unsolicited advice on exercise form.

I think all those things can lead to a woman feeling like maybe it's a space that she doesn't belong in, or maybe she is less entitled to that equipment or to that area.

So, leading to kind of feelings of just self— self-consciousness and inadequacy, I suppose.

Why do women have to take it that way, and Disnella please, you know, respond to this— Why do women have to take it as—as insults in a sense?

Well, it is insultin because it is showing the divide that some people have i their head between the genders.

Whereas in many cases, women can be just as capable as a man inside the gym.

So what are—how do you advise men when they go into gyms?

Just—just don't talk to women?

It's not that you can't talk to women.

I mean, I actually go up to men all the time to help them out with their form when I see something.

I think its just changing the conversation as to why you're coming up to us.

It's not a dating pool, it is the gym.

Is that—then they see it only as a dating pool?

I wouldn't say all of them, but there is some, like for instance, my video that went viral.

There's people commenting, why am I dressed the way I am, in leggings and a sports bra?

And what if—if that were said to you in person, what would you say back?

I would probably say something along the lines that how I dress doesn't defined any wa that you can interact with me.

I mean, is it always that way?

Dr. Cowley, what do you—?

Do you think women should join women only facilities?

How do you deal with this?

So in—in the study, we did have some women tal about being in women only gyms.

And I don't know, to be honest, how I feel about this.

I think My background is in PE teaching.

So I did a lot of research with teenage girls, looking at their experiences in—with exercise and physical activity.

And I know sometimes a lot of PE classes are divided.

We have the boys in one clas and the girls in the other, and I think similar to that I don't know if it's a plaster on a bigger issue, like you'r then creating a gender divide.

However, women in those women only spaces can feel a sense of, not necessarily safety, but just freedom, kind of, from the male gaze.

And whether that gaze is actual or it's just the women, you know, might perceive it that way.

It still gives them, you know, the freedom—and oftentimes those gyms are al— are also quieter, which is helpful and probably a bit selfish that all the women get all the equipment.

So I think they can play a role, but I'm not sure it's really fixing the issue.

And your thoughts, Disnella?

I 100% agree.

I think it's a great resource for women that feel as though that's what they would prefer.

But me personally, I actually enjoy combining the two genders.

I like—because I come from the military, so I like that energy.

I like a bro energy.

I just don't want it to come off as creepy at some point.

And are there guy who are just naturally good at being able to talk to women without talking down to them?

Of course, I think there's people that just have better social skills in general.

How should they change teaching in classrooms, so that boys don't grow up thinking this is okay?

I think, so, I'm from the— I'm from Ireland, in case you can't tell by the accent.

And I think that, you know there's so many amazing teachers in Ireland that are doing really progressive things.

I think traditionally our PE curriculum is very— it's all based on team sports.

Usually it's football, rugby.

And I'm not saying all girls, but lots of girl don't want to do those things.

You know there should be more focus on, maybe it's just exercise or movement in general.

There's a lot of, you know, kids are growing up now without fundamental movement skills.

We don't know how to run, jump, throw.

And so I think by maybe openin up what we actually study in PE to help kids do things that they enjoy, it can—it can reframe that gendered environment.

Now, why don't you tell me, Dr. Cowley, first, what you found in your research that surprised you the most?

Qualit— so the comments, the quotes that we got back from the women weren't surprising.

There was lots about, I feel too big, I feel not enough, I feel—so all of those things were kind of not—not too surprising.

But we also did some like validated questionnaires.

And what we found was that there was like a real drive for muscularity and athleticism, but that wasn't linked or associated to feeling appreciative of your body.

It was actually linked to a drive and a desire to be thin and to be kind of skinny.

And so in the 90s, you know, we think of Kate Moss and we think of cocaine chic and being really as tiny as possible.

And now we see, okay, we want to be muscular and we want to be lean, but that's not necessarily more healthy.

So that's I think what surprised me most.

Disnella, if you were in a lowe level kindergarten, I don't know first grade school teaching boys, how would you train them not to put women, you know, at unease with anything that they say?

I would just consciously try an invoke that sense of equality.

Although there is differences in the gender, I like to come together with what we have the same of.

And I love competition.

Like you were mentioning a lot of the sports that you were a teacher for involved competition.

I think that's very healthy, even if it's a male and a woman competing against each other, because who's to say that women won't win sometimes?

So I would just teach them what we have in common.

And how do you create questions around that?

How do I create questions around—?

Well, you know, especially if you don't know each other.

I mean, you don't want to go up and say something political because you don't know who's going to agree with you or disagree with you.

But—or same thing about a lot of items in the news.

But so what would you suggest to young men that they do say to young women they'd like to talk to, in any sense?

In any sense?

Well, when we're talking about the gym specifically, I like to say, save the whole I like you situation for outside of the gym.

Like allow people to just go into the gym and focus on the task at hand, which is growing their— muscles, whether it be for aesthetics or for health.

So I would save that for outside the gym talk.

You know, at the gym that I'm in, it's a wonderful gym.

It's just a very—it's a low cost local gym.

And it's really— like we have so many different types of people in that gym.

But I often get it's the older men that will come over to me and say, you know, you're really strong or you know, and, and their comments about what I'm doing.

It's not about my body, for the most part.

And, I think that I personally have enjoyed that.

And it's also made me more aware of why don't I do that to other women, you know, like why?

It's almost like having th confidence to be kind.

Sometimes I wish I had the confidence of like a white middle aged man, who—who could go over to someone and say, that's really cool.

And I think it's actually— it's made me reflect on I would like to do that to other women in the gym without being unsolicited or just saying, you look really strong, like, good for you, you know?

So yeah, I don't know.

That's my kind of experience of those type of comments.

And how would you incorporate it into your trainin if you were a trainer in a gym?

It's also the men trainers that have come over and introduced themselves and said, and it's not—it's— maybe they're just trying to find, you know new personal training clients.

I don't know, but actually just coming over to, you know, somebody in the gym and introducing themselves as you know?

Hi.

I'm Emma, Im a trainer here.

I see you here frequently.

Like, you know, I like how you train.

Good job.

I think for a new member, it can also really build that sense of community.

You know, when you think— I see the people in my gym more frequently than I see some of my family members.

So how lovely would it be i you could create an environment where everyone can just say good morning to each other and say you're doing a good job today?

And I think trainer are part of that conversation.

Do you think that wit new clients, particularly, gyms should do little ru throughs about what's appropriat to say to a woman you don't know and what's not appropriate?

So personally, no, I think that's doing a little bit too much.

Like at the end of the day, most gyms require you to be an adult, so I don't think they should teach you how to tal to other adults in that sense.

But I just think people need to be more aware of how they're approaching people, because I agree, I approach people all the time, and I— if I—if I am, like, intrigued about what they're doing at the gym, but it's how yo approach someone that matters.

So you would suggest not telling them how to do it properly in your way of thinking how—it—so how— what should they do?

How should they do it?

It goes back to upbringing, sadly.

It's—it's a societal problem that we're having with a lot of males that just don't know how to approach women in a way that isn't creepy sometimes.

So tell me, what are—each of you: What are the best lines that men have had coming up to you?

What are the question that you really want to answer and find out about how they think on various topics?

What are they?

My favorite line is what are you training for?

It is so flattering.

It's like, this is just how I train.

But because I do a very like serious workout and people are always just like, I just need to know— what—is there a marathon coming up?

I'm like, no, this is it.

And then sometimes they say, can I train with you?

And I'm like, yes, you can.

But—but they do feel they have to ask your permission before they do that?

Yes, 100%.

And—and your thoughts, Dr. Cowley?

I don't know if I would ever go up to somebod and give any kind of feedback.

If I saw somebod doing an exercise incorrectly, it's—it's not really my business or my—how I personally feel.

It's not my business or my job to, I suppose, correct them or or give my opinion, regardless of whether that's a woman or a man.

Um, but I do agree with Disnella in that I think it is such a compliment if somebody comes over and says yeah, what are you training for?

Like, or do you compete?

Are you—that's—that is lovely.

But also I'm kind of conscious of the fact that I, that strokes my ego, but I don't know how somebody else would, would find that.

And so for the most part, I try to just say good, say good morning and, and create that just welcoming environment without putting too much attention on what they're doing or, or of course, no attention on, on their bodies.

I think that's a whole other conversation.

So the attention should be placed on what they're doing and how they're doing it?

I think so.

I think it's I think it's really challenging.

And I think this is inside and outside of the gym.

There's very few friends, unless I am very close to somebod and I know they're working hard, whether it's, you know, trying to lose weight or whatever it might be.

I think, you know, when you see somebody and maybe they've lost weight but you don't know that they're trying to lose weight.

I try to say, you know, wow, like you look healthier, you look happy or glowing, whatever.

Not like, whoa, have you lost weight?

Because we don't know why they might have lost.

So.

Yeah.

So?

So I always try to keep i on what they're doing as opposed to how they look.

Disnella, what suggestions would you make to officers managing, you know, people with management duties in the gym and how they should approach women, just to talk to them or you know, telling—telling them what topic is more likely to succeed than another one.

How should that be handled?

Oh, with respect and kindness, I would say.

But I was thinking about something that Emma was saying right now about how like she thinks that people should, like, just be welcomin and say good morning to people.

I think it really depends o what type of city you live in.

If you're if you're used to living—like, I'm from New York City, so it's very overpopulated and I go to a gym that's huge and there's tons of clients.

So I'm not going in thinking about saying good morning to everyone.

I actually don't want that.

So I was also thinking about: there's this thing in Korea where if you go to a bar, you put a wristband and there's three wristbands.

One of them say, don't talk to me.

One of them say, maybe talk to me.

Another one says, talk to me.

And I was like, maybe we need something like that because I'll have don't talk to m unless it's about working out.

Really?

Do you have one that says that?

I need one, yeah.

Okay.

And your thoughts?

Emma.

Yeah.

I think, I absolutely agree, Disnella, in that, like what you said earlier on around.

I don't think that the staff need training on how to to speak to women, members or clients, and I—but I do think that there's probably a place for gyms to have a very strict policy on what happens if somebody reports harassment or aggression, you know, and that's not jus towards women, but in general, you know, it's like, you know, when you do a first aid course, we all do them.

I mean, you know, practice on the dummy, but actually, like if someone had an event, like, do we feel confident on, like, exactly what needs to happen at that time point?

And so I think gyms although they might have policies, it need— I think it needs to be really transparent.

It needs to be clear for members if something happens, what exactly do I do?

Who do I report it to?

And likewise, you know, if you're a gym trainer, you know how to action that.

I think that could be like a a practical ste that I'm sure lots of gyms do, but I don't think all gyms do it.

In our study, participants talked about how they got unsolicited comments and attention both from men and women, but for men they felt it was more intimidating.

Whereas when they had unsolicited, you know, attention.

So it might be kind of people looking at them.

And it doesn't necessarily need to be a comment.

They felt that when it was fro women, it was more judgmental.

And I think that's quite interesting.

You know, one of the other findings we had was you know, women would say, oh, I don't care what other people are doing.

I don't, you know, that's not my business.

But they're also aware, you know, tha they're looking at other women.

So they say they're not being judgmental, but they are awar of the other women in the gym.

And so I think it's happening both with men and women but just different, you know?

One is intimidating and one is this perceived judgment.

Yeah.

Tell me a little bit more about that research, if you will, Dr. Cowley.

What—what do women do to intimidate other women?

I don't—sorry.

Just to clarify, they feel intimidated by men, but they feel judged by other women.

And I think this is— this is something that happens from, you know, when we're very young, you know, that we have teenage girls, we have girls younger dropping out of sports for this fear of judgment.

And so, you know, if we don't feel competen or confident in our movements, we are more inclined to just disengage from it altogether for fear of being ridiculed or being made fun of.

And so, you know, if you're going into a gym and it's like, you know, I've been going to the gym for a very long time, I'm confident in the gym.

I know what I'm doing.

But if I go into a new gym where I don't know the layout— I also am half blind if I don't have my glasses on—and it's dark and it has loud music, I can understand that intimidation, and I know what I'm doing.

And so I think, you know, it's having the you know, you asked a question there earlier on about like what should we be telling men on how they should approach women?

But I don't think that we should be telling anybod to approach anybody in the gym.

Unless it i something that, you know, you, you know, if you recognize each other and you're there, like, you want to nod hello or, you know, I don't think it's something that we should be necessarily encouraging.

At the end of the day the gym, for the most part, is is a place that you're going— Not everybody even likes the gym who go to the gym.

They're there to get a job done and leave; if you enjoy it, that— that's a plus.

I think especially not going to like a fitness class, which is potentially more social.

But I think in general, you know, it's about just going in and finding something that you enjoy, trying to be comfortable in that environmen to build up your own confidence.

And, you know if you make social interactions in there—great.

But I really don't think— I think that's much further down the priority list.

Disnella, what do you think about, that—what women are better at—at the gym than men and vice versa?

Obviousl we can start with weightlifting.

Men have bigger muscles.

And so they might be better at that.

I don't know, what other sports do you see gender differences?

I'm one of those people who don't like to say men or women are better than the other, because I've seen throughout my military career and myself beat men in their own game.

So I don't think either of us are better.

I think it's an individual thing.

You know, this individual might be better than another individual at X, Y, Z.

But there's still data.

I mean, because we've done a lot of stories on the sho about women in the military and, I think 70 or so if I'm recalling correctly and these data are kind of old, of men who try out for the military qualify, and something like 30% of women who try out for the military qualify.

So, which sports are easier for women to excel in?

When it comes to qualifying, I think it's more so because, yes, men are genetically stronger.

I will give them that.

But also, majority of women don't workout as hard.

And I'm tryin to explain this in the best way.

But so—men are genetically stronger, right?

And in order for a woman to somewhat be as strong she has to work a little harder.

And I'm saying the majority of women aren't doing that before they decide to join the military.

You know, that's something that comes, like you have to build yourself up to be that strong.

But my point is, you can buil yourself up to be that strong.

Do you think more women are likely to get discouraged earlier on than men are—because men are stronger?

I think that can happen.

Yeah.

It can happen.

Okay.

And Dr. Cowley, you?

I agree with Disnella in that I—I don't think—I think of the, the men that are in my gym.

And I think I'm stronger than like 80% of them.

But that's not because I am exceptionally strong.

It's because they're average gym goers who, you know, they're just no that fit, or theyre just not that strong.

So yes, I think you're, you're correct in that, you know, i we're looking at elite athletes, yes, men are going to be bigger, faster, stronger, taller, jump further.

But I think in, in everyday life that that is not always true.

But I do think for women, you know, and one of th results of the study found that women can find the gym at later in life, and they use it as a form of empowerment.

You know, they go through divorces, they go through affairs, they go through all these, you know, heavy life events that men do, too.

But we know that women carry that emotional burden.

And, you know they might have never set foot into a weightlifting gym or a gym in general.

And you know, they run an extra mile or they run that mile faster or they, you know, now they've moved on from 10 pound weights.

Now all of a sudde they're deadlifting 200 pounds.

And, you know, these are like 50 year old women who are entering menopause.

They never thought this was possible.

And they realize, you know, actually, you know, society's kind of brought me up to be quie and small and clean and pretty.

But actually, you know, if I put my mind to it, I'm really strong, and I'm really fast.

And so I imagine overcoming so many challenges that women do in life, I think that the gym can help them become more empowered and more disciplined, and more resilient than perhaps men.

And they take that resilienc into other areas of their life.

You know, they realize they're strong in the gym.

And then all of a sudden, I' not—I'm not going to take that outside of the gym.

I'm not going to let someone talk to me like that.

So I think in that regard, women can benefit more than men potentially.

Would you advise all women, especially women, considering going into the military to join gyms and get strong before—stronger before they try out or not?

Yeah, I would recommend anyon that wants to be in the military to get themselves to some sort of pea physical fitness before joining, because that is a big part especially in the initial boot camp part.

Well, I hope, all the women and men are listening closely to this program and take some of your suggestions.

They were extremely helpful.

Thanks to you both.

Thanks, Disnella, and thank you, Emma.

And that's it for this edition of To The Contrary.

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